[rover]

Many many STG44's were captured in Iraq. Seems the Russians included them and several thousands of rounds in a deal to Iraq. There were several stories about it years ago.

 

[Half Moon Tune]

And it was relatively short lived and not issued in great numbers.

I appreciatedyour comments, being a great fan of the M1 carbine. However, must disagree with your end comment. The M1 carbine was produced in greater numbers than any other longarm in use by the U S military in WW2. Somebody had to be issued those rifles.

Actually, the carbine was, and is a very good weapon for use in the perimeters of which it was designed (a close range DEFENSIVE weapon for use). The problem was that the government tried to use it in all kinds of situations for which it was not designed (frontline assult weapon etc). Used within the design perimeters it is a very GOOD weapon.

 

[Brettboat]

where are they produced today? are these brand new rifles or spare parts being put together to make new guns?

http://www.ssd-weapon.com/Home.html

They make ALOT of stuff.

Anyways. Arguing MP44 Vs. M1 carbine is an arguement for idiots and trolls. They're guns designed for two tottaly differnt roles and shoot them will prove this to you instantly.

 

[MikeK]

I appreciated your comments, being a great fan of the M1 carbine. However, must disagree with your end comment. The M1 carbine was produced in greater numbers than any other longarm in use by the U S military in WW2. Somebody had to be issued those rifles.

Actually, the carbine was, and is a very good weapon for use in the perimeters of which it was designed (a close range DEFENSIVE weapon for use). The problem was that the government tried to use it in all kinds of situations for which it was not designed (frontline assult weapon etc). Used within the design perimeters it is a very GOOD weapon.

Well, a lot of them saw use in Korea also. But they still weren't our primary arm. They were produced in slightly higher numbers than the Garand. But they were also cheaper and faster to make.

I have often speculated that the numbers built up towards the end of WWII was in preparation for the invasion of Japan. They knew that was going to take a very large number of personell. The carbine makes more sense in an urban environment than the Garand. And with it's smaller, lighter ammo, it would be an attractive alternative from a logistics perspective too.

I've always wondered why they never became more popular with shooters in general. They're really sweet guns.

 

[0002S]

where are they produced today? are these brand new rifles or spare parts being put together to make new guns?

Auto Ordnance sells 3 types (new not parts)

http://www.auto-ordnance.com/Firearms/Firearms.asp

 

[0002S]

What makes it a footnote is that it was never a primary arm.

And the STG 44 was a primary arm?

I think of the STG 44 as more of an evolution of from the MP44 or Sten, or Grease, or Thompson. IMHO, the 7.92x33 rounds concept was the revolution and not the rifle itself. (AK was revolutionary). I don't think the STG44 compares well to the M1 Carbine.


FWIW

I'm not a fan of the M1 Carbine, don't own or never have owned an M1 Carbine and think they are ridiculously priced today for what they are. My comments aren't based on a fan boy love for them.

 

[0002S]

's


The STG remained in service with the DDR until the 1970's and I personally saw 1 recovered from insurgents in Iraq in 2004.

I've seen parade photos of the DDR marching with STGs up to the mid 50s, but never seen them fielded later than WWII, as main/secondary, or as far as the 70s. I'm would agree that police units most likely used them up into the 70s.

Yes, and so is every other rifle that was ever used in any conflict in the Middle east that was recycled by the Iraqis.

I mean fielded by the country of origin as a issued rifle to it's troops as a primary/secondary arm.

 

[tony71]

Why STG44 over M1? Easy cuz STG is prettier

 

[MikeK]

And the STG 44 was a primary arm?

I think of the STG 44 as more of an evolution of from the MP44 or Sten, or Grease, or Thompson. IMHO, the 7.92x33 rounds concept was the revolution and not the rifle itself. (AK was revolutionary). I don't think the STG44 compares well to the M1 Carbine.

That's a good point too. But as you mentioned the STG 44 was part of the lineage of the modern assault rifle. Where the M1 carbine just sort of reached a dead end and tends to be forgotten or overlooked. Submachineguns went one direction and assault rifles went another, leaving the carbine with nowhere to go.

I also don't think they compare well. They were different guns derived from different concepts. I can't really see where the carbine could have evolved into anything as useful as the modern assault rifle. Hence why it reached a dead end. Though I would loved to have seen the civilian market pick up the ball and develop M1 carbines in other calibers. But there just wasn't enough enthusiasm from the civilian market to support it.

 

[MarksInnerDemon]

The M1 isn't a footnote, but it is a copy of what designers all over the world achieved well before the US. The Fedorov Avtomat is a perfect example of a pre curser assualt rifle, and the M1 and its pistol caliber style cartridge is more of a PPsh style weapon then a true assult rifle.

Frankly even though the Gattling gun (first true rapid fire gun) was developed in the US, and a American in England produced the first true machinegun, the US and small arms weapon techonolgy has been slow if not the last to adopt new and working inovations. If you look at the history we rightfully don't have a say in touting any kind of advances in small arms tech at all.

Now this isn't the case in large weapon designs, aircraft carriers, aircraft, submarines, tanks etc where we excel at but the small arm has won more wars then our fearsome weapons of war. Sad but ture.

 

[real wowwee]

it is a copy of what designers all over the world achieved well before the US.

You really don't know anything about the development of the M1. Moonshiner in prison thought of it and built it in secret just to see if it would work. One of Jimmy Stewart's best movies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Marshall_Williams

If you look at the history we rightfully don't have a say in touting any kind of advances in small arms tech at all.

You will be haunted by John Browning's ghost for the rest of your life. If there ever was a GENIUS at small arms tech it was him. Everything from shotguns to machine guns to the 1911.

 

[MarksInnerDemon]

You really don't know anything about the development of the M1. Moonshiner in prison thought of it and built it in secret just to see if it would work. One of Jimmy Stewart's best movies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Marshall_Williams



You will be haunted by John Browning's ghost for the rest of your life. If there ever was a GENIUS at small arms tech it was him. Everything from shotguns to machine guns to the 1911.

Look you missed all of history because you didn't pay attention to it or the history or development of modern firearms.

Again great the M1 is still far behind just about every other submachinegun making country in the world. Great design very good weapon, not orginal just a better concept.

Browning also was far behind other nations and only made better designs of what already exsisted. He had novel approaches but we don't look at the AK, or the M16 as the first of its kind.

So frankly you don't know a damn thing about the history of modern machineguns, you have focused on the US instead of realizing what were deficent in and seeing how we adjusted. Learn from your mistakes don't gloss over them because it makes you feel pretty.

 

[stant]

a bit of history on both guns. the germans made i recall about 15.000 of them. but a group of b17 bombers thats primary target was obscured by clouds hit a secoundary target that was the factory that made the rounds for that gun. boom took out that guns advantage because scarcity of ammo. now on the other side of the world us marines on okinowa used the m1 carbine that was responsible for 70% of japans small arms kills.now that being said no co is making the german gun but the m1 carbine still is.

 

[AlgoRhythms]

I think the big difference was in the goal of the gun itself. The M1 carbine was never designed as an assault weapon to be taken into battle. It was designed as a self defense arm for support personel. It was more effective and easier to use than the handgun. The fact that a lot of guys did choose to take it into battle speaks well for the gun itself, but it wasn't issued for that purpose. And it was relatively short lived and not issued in great numbers.

There were 6.5 million M1 carbines made during WW2, more than the M1 Garand. It was used by US forces in WW2, Korea and Vietnam.

 

[intervivos]

And the STG 44 was a primary arm?

I think of the STG 44 as more of an evolution of from the MP44 or Sten, or Grease, or Thompson. IMHO, the 7.92x33 rounds concept was the revolution and not the rifle itself. (AK was revolutionary). I don't think the STG44 compares well to the M1 Carbine.

I think you mean the STG44 was an evolution from the MP40, or sten, or grease, or thompson. The MP44 and the STG44 are essentially the same firearm.

I agree that the M2 carbine (full auto M1 carbine) and the STG44 do not compare well. I do believe that the concept of the M2 is sound and lives on today in modern PDW such as the H&K MP7 and we all know where the STG44 went.

 

[Fringilla]

I always assumed that the Federov was the first assault rifle?

BTW lovin the M1, better stock than the STGW.

 

[jknova]

Bringing this old thread back from the dead.

The Federov was expensive and complicated to make, and prone to breakage in the field. For those reasons, not very many were made, and its service life was short.

The cartridge it used (6.5mm Jap) had almost 2000 foot-pounds at the muzzle, vs the M1 Carbine's almost 1000 foot-pounds at the muzzle.

The Federov weighed 11.4 pounds loaded. The M1 Carbine weighed 5.8 pounds loaded.

About 3,200 Federovs were made ... about 6.5 million M1 Carbines were made (plus civilian copies). A small number of Federovs were used in World War One - under 20, you read that right, under 20. Larger numbers of Federovs were used in the East Karelian Uprising and a thousand or so were used in the same area during World War II. Most Federovs were lost (presumed broken down and discarded) by the end of WWII. Millions of M1 Carbines were used in both Europe and the Pacific during World War II; it was in very widespread Marine Corps use by Iwo Jima and Okinawa. M1 Carbines were also heavily used in Korea and Vietnam. They were often supplied to foreign militaries after being decommissioned.

The Federov deserves credit as the first "assault rifle", or at least, has a claim. But saying that the M1 Carbine was just an updated or slightly tweaked version of the Federov makes no sense. The M1 Carbine is radically different from the Federov in purpose, size and weight, cartridge and service history. I am not aware of anything very much like the M1 Carbine, prior to the M1 Carbine.

Federov vs StG44 is a better comparison, since both weapons are more interesting as precursors than in terms of their own service history. I like historic weapons, but if I simply wanted an effective weapon to use in war, I would pick the AK-47 above the StG and the StG above the Federov. I would set the M1 Carbine to the side in that discussion, because it is not in the same category as those three, being much lighter and handier with a weaker round.

I will say this ... the Germans designing the StG44 apparently spent more time talking about the M1 Carbine than the Federov. I don't think they were copying the M1 Carbine by any means, they took it in a different direction (replacing Mausers, vs the M1 Carbine being intended to replace 1911s). But the M1 Carbine's effective use by U.S. troops and by partisan troops supplied by the U.S. got the Germans' attention and lent credence to the weapon designers who felt the Mauser was outdated.

 

[Herd Sniper]

In Viet Nam we came across 3 M-1 carbines that had the same exact serial numbers and marks on them. We kept them in our arms room and notified our intelligence guys. The intelligence guys did some checking and found out that the original carbine had been issued during the Korean War to a soldier who had gone missing and was never recovered. His carbine though must have been picked up by the North Koreans or Chinese and was copied over and over. When they copied the carbine, the communists copied the carbine completely down to the serial number which is how we ended up with 3 M-1 carbines with the same matching serial number. The copied carbines did a pretty good job when we tested them. There were some rough spots on all 3 of the clones but they worked and shot fairly straight.

 

[mefunkymxw]

not many folks know about the winchester 1907 either....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1907

it shot a .351 carbine which is still technically a pistol caliber, but it had a little more energy then a 30 carbine and it accepted a detachable box mag that had up to 10 rounds.... impressive when you think it was made in 1907... it was 100% blowback though, no gas operation, so a little more dangerous, but nonetheless might have made more of a difference in WWI had more been produced.

 

[Harmless Drudge]

Why is the M1 just a footnote in history while the STG44 gets credit for being the first assault rifle?

Seems to me they both were trying to solve the same problem.

The M1 cartridge is 7.62 x 33 while the STG44 is 7.92 x 33. BOTH were conceived as a compromise between pistol and rifle rounds and carry more.

Both were semi or full auto.

The M1 weighed 5.2 lbs while the STG44 was a whopping 10.4 lbs

I think the M1 has gotten a bum rap.

Federov Avtomat FTW!