STG 44
- Very useful out to 400metres/yards
- Much larger magazine capacity
- Made out of stamped metal, far easier and quicker to produce also more damage resilient.
- 7.62x33 and 7.92x33, ok so the case is of the same length but the width of the 7.92 case is much wider and a heavier bullet is being pushed to faster velocities.
-Issued in select fire right from the beginning, M1 only later in the war and in limited numbers, automatic fire greatly limited by magazine size.
-Pistol grip, far better for an assault type weapon.

The M1 fits the role it was designed for and so does the STG44, if they were comparable then I am fairly sure that both the Germans and the Russians who had ample time to inspect the M1 carbine would have designed something similar, but they didn't and with good reason.

Oh and the 7.92x33 wasn't designed as a mix between the pistol and rifle round it was designed to fulfill the requirements of a modern rifle cartridge aka. no need for 8mm which goes through brick walls at a mile when all the killing is done at 600yds and below, most often at 300yds. Hence a rifle cartridge and assault rifle designed to be used for offense and defense.

The 7.62x33 was however a cross between the pistol and rifle because the rifle was to heavy and the pistol to short ranged, hence the amalgamation of a straight case using a rifle calibre bullet for a rifle designed with the intention of being used defensively, it being after all put simply a scaled down magazine fed M1 Garand.

Simples.

 

STG 44
- Very useful out to 400metres/yards
- Much larger magazine capacity
- Made out of stamped metal, far easier and quicker to produce also more damage resilient.
- 7.62x33 and 7.92x33, ok so the case is of the same length but the width of the 7.92 case is much wider and a heavier bullet is being pushed to faster velocities.
-Issued in select fire right from the beginning, M1 only later in the war and in limited numbers, automatic fire greatly limited by magazine size.

The M1 fits the role it was designed for and so does the STG44, if they were comparable then I am fairly sure that both the Germans and the Russians who had ample time to inspect the M1 carbine would have designed something similar, but they didn't and with good reason.

Oh and the 7.92x33 wasn't designed as a mix between the pistol and rifle round it was designed to fulfill the requirements of a modern rifle cartridge aka. no need for 8mm which goes through brick walls at a mile when all the killing is done at 600yds and below, most often at 300yds.

The 7.62x33 was however a cross between the pistol and rifle because the rifle was to heavy and the pistol to short ranged, hence the amalgamation of a straight case using a rifle calibre bullet.

Simples.

I say what he just said LOL - True to the point

 

The first assault rifle was actually the MP43 which was the first design variant of what became the STG44. Early 1944 the MP43 was renamed the MP44 had pretty much no design changes. The German army used 43/44's before the full-auto variant of the M1 carbine (which is technically the M2 Carbine) was placed into production I believe in late 1944. It was not until December that they renamed the MP44 the STG44.

Basically the German army was issuing and using in war the guns before the M2 was even produced, hence it is generally designated as the first.

 

The M1 Carbine was in the shadow of the M1 garand in WW2 then the M14 in Korea and Finally served in the shadow of the new M16 in Vietnam. It never had a chance to make a name for itself under those other great rifles. The STG44 was a general issue front line rifle giving it the fame that a front line rifle deserves.

 

Actually, the M14 wasn't adopted by the U.S military until 1957, and fielded until '59. So the M1 Garand saw full service in WW2, Korea, and, in very limited circumstances, 'Nam. The M14 saw the bulk of its service from '59 - '64, when production ceased and the M16 was adopted, although it was still in common usage throughout much of 'Nam until around '67-68 roughly. :thumb:

 

I think the big difference was in the goal of the gun itself. The M1 carbine was never designed as an assault weapon to be taken into battle. It was designed as a self defense arm for support personel. It was more effective and easier to use than the handgun. The fact that a lot of guys did choose to take it into battle speaks well for the gun itself, but it wasn't issued for that purpose. And it was relatively short lived and not issued in great numbers.

 

What he said.

 

because if there's a way to stamp, bend, rivet and pin it. For $20 worth of materials. The US military will want one forged, machined, welded and screwed for $45 worth of materials. And so complex no one will dare disassemble it for fear of loosen a part.

 

Definitely the Sturmgewher, a real assault weapon.

 

yup the 7.92x33 more resembled an intermediate rifle round, while the .30 carbine was basically a rimless 30 caliber version of the .357 magnum (close to the same case length, and straight walled)

different powders between intermediate rifle rounds and magnum handgun rounds.... H322 vs. H110 (or WIN 296)

although i see the point the OP was trying to make, they are two seperate classes of rounds... difficult to compare

 

Yep as others have said the powder capacity of the cases makes the .30 carbine a pistol power level cartridge while the STG 7.92 round with it's bottleneck has enough powder to make it a true assualt rifle round.

 

Over 6.5 million M1 Carbines were manufactured and it was in service from 1942-1973. It's still manufactured today. I'd hardly call that a 'footnote' in firearms history.

425,977 STG 44 were manufactured in 1943 and was in service from 1943-1945.

Comparing apples to assault rifles.

 

Over 6.5 million M1 Carbines were manufactured and it was in service from 1942-1973. It's still manufactured today. I'd hardly call that a 'footnote' in firearms history.

425,977 STG 44 were manufactured in 1943 and was in service from 1943-1945.

Comparing apples to assault rifles.

's


The STG remained in service with the DDR until the 1970's and I personally saw 1 recovered from insurgents in Iraq in 2004.

 

In plain english, you are comparing a hot .357 pistol round to a
ak47 cartridge. Not exactly correct, but pretty close.

The M1 carbine is a lot closer to a submachine gun than
an assault rifle.

 

Many many STG44's were captured in Iraq. Seems the Russians included them and several thousands of rounds in a deal to Iraq. There were several stories about it years ago.

 

Why STG44 over M1? Easy cuz STG is prettier

 

The M1 isn't a footnote, but it is a copy of what designers all over the world achieved well before the US. The Fedorov Avtomat is a perfect example of a pre curser assualt rifle, and the M1 and its pistol caliber style cartridge is more of a PPsh style weapon then a true assult rifle.

Frankly even though the Gattling gun (first true rapid fire gun) was developed in the US, and a American in England produced the first true machinegun, the US and small arms weapon techonolgy has been slow if not the last to adopt new and working inovations. If you look at the history we rightfully don't have a say in touting any kind of advances in small arms tech at all.

Now this isn't the case in large weapon designs, aircraft carriers, aircraft, submarines, tanks etc where we excel at but the small arm has won more wars then our fearsome weapons of war. Sad but ture.

 

it is a copy of what designers all over the world achieved well before the US.

You really don't know anything about the development of the M1. Moonshiner in prison thought of it and built it in secret just to see if it would work. One of Jimmy Stewart's best movies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Marshall_Williams

If you look at the history we rightfully don't have a say in touting any kind of advances in small arms tech at all.

You will be haunted by John Browning's ghost for the rest of your life. If there ever was a GENIUS at small arms tech it was him. Everything from shotguns to machine guns to the 1911.

 

You really don't know anything about the development of the M1. Moonshiner in prison thought of it and built it in secret just to see if it would work. One of Jimmy Stewart's best movies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Marshall_Williams



You will be haunted by John Browning's ghost for the rest of your life. If there ever was a GENIUS at small arms tech it was him. Everything from shotguns to machine guns to the 1911.

Look you missed all of history because you didn't pay attention to it or the history or development of modern firearms.

Again great the M1 is still far behind just about every other submachinegun making country in the world. Great design very good weapon, not orginal just a better concept.

Browning also was far behind other nations and only made better designs of what already exsisted. He had novel approaches but we don't look at the AK, or the M16 as the first of its kind.

So frankly you don't know a damn thing about the history of modern machineguns, you have focused on the US instead of realizing what were deficent in and seeing how we adjusted. Learn from your mistakes don't gloss over them because it makes you feel pretty.

 

a bit of history on both guns. the germans made i recall about 15.000 of them. but a group of b17 bombers thats primary target was obscured by clouds hit a secoundary target that was the factory that made the rounds for that gun. boom took out that guns advantage because scarcity of ammo. now on the other side of the world us marines on okinowa used the m1 carbine that was responsible for 70% of japans small arms kills.now that being said no co is making the german gun but the m1 carbine still is.

 

I always assumed that the Federov was the first assault rifle?

BTW lovin the M1, better stock than the STGW.

 

Bringing this old thread back from the dead.

The Federov was expensive and complicated to make, and prone to breakage in the field. For those reasons, not very many were made, and its service life was short.

The cartridge it used (6.5mm Jap) had almost 2000 foot-pounds at the muzzle, vs the M1 Carbine's almost 1000 foot-pounds at the muzzle.

The Federov weighed 11.4 pounds loaded. The M1 Carbine weighed 5.8 pounds loaded.

About 3,200 Federovs were made ... about 6.5 million M1 Carbines were made (plus civilian copies). A small number of Federovs were used in World War One - under 20, you read that right, under 20. Larger numbers of Federovs were used in the East Karelian Uprising and a thousand or so were used in the same area during World War II. Most Federovs were lost (presumed broken down and discarded) by the end of WWII. Millions of M1 Carbines were used in both Europe and the Pacific during World War II; it was in very widespread Marine Corps use by Iwo Jima and Okinawa. M1 Carbines were also heavily used in Korea and Vietnam. They were often supplied to foreign militaries after being decommissioned.

The Federov deserves credit as the first "assault rifle", or at least, has a claim. But saying that the M1 Carbine was just an updated or slightly tweaked version of the Federov makes no sense. The M1 Carbine is radically different from the Federov in purpose, size and weight, cartridge and service history. I am not aware of anything very much like the M1 Carbine, prior to the M1 Carbine.

Federov vs StG44 is a better comparison, since both weapons are more interesting as precursors than in terms of their own service history. I like historic weapons, but if I simply wanted an effective weapon to use in war, I would pick the AK-47 above the StG and the StG above the Federov. I would set the M1 Carbine to the side in that discussion, because it is not in the same category as those three, being much lighter and handier with a weaker round.

I will say this ... the Germans designing the StG44 apparently spent more time talking about the M1 Carbine than the Federov. I don't think they were copying the M1 Carbine by any means, they took it in a different direction (replacing Mausers, vs the M1 Carbine being intended to replace 1911s). But the M1 Carbine's effective use by U.S. troops and by partisan troops supplied by the U.S. got the Germans' attention and lent credence to the weapon designers who felt the Mauser was outdated.

 

In Viet Nam we came across 3 M-1 carbines that had the same exact serial numbers and marks on them. We kept them in our arms room and notified our intelligence guys. The intelligence guys did some checking and found out that the original carbine had been issued during the Korean War to a soldier who had gone missing and was never recovered. His carbine though must have been picked up by the North Koreans or Chinese and was copied over and over. When they copied the carbine, the communists copied the carbine completely down to the serial number which is how we ended up with 3 M-1 carbines with the same matching serial number. The copied carbines did a pretty good job when we tested them. There were some rough spots on all 3 of the clones but they worked and shot fairly straight.

 

not many folks know about the winchester 1907 either....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1907

it shot a .351 carbine which is still technically a pistol caliber, but it had a little more energy then a 30 carbine and it accepted a detachable box mag that had up to 10 rounds.... impressive when you think it was made in 1907... it was 100% blowback though, no gas operation, so a little more dangerous, but nonetheless might have made more of a difference in WWI had more been produced.

 

Federov Avtomat FTW!

 

apple and oranges.

the carbine was to arm second line troops instead of issuing the 1911 to them. the carbine turned out better than they thought. they even experimented with stretching the receiver for 5.56 nato for vietnam, didn't pan out.
stg was designed for front line use, but the infrastructure to make it just was not there. 8mm kurtz and increased magazine capacity. less recoil than the 8mm mauser and learning from here experience with the PPSH(s). we have have the first assault weapon. be safe.