Most firefights in urban and suburban settings happen at relatively close ranges.

 

I totally agree, but surely there must be rural dwellers on SB too. I also think that close urban range is ideal for an UZI 9mm SMG, not a larger rifle.

 

I got out of the service in 93, so things may have changed. We were using M16A2 at the time and we zeroed at 25 meters and the point of aim was the same for 300 meters. There was I dial we clicked back for zeroing and then back to the original setting after zeroing. It was good to go after zeroing. It has been along time.

If I remember correctly, with the above zero, 150 meters was the highest point of the trajectory and you had to aim lower for shots at 150 meters. We aimed center mass for 300 meters. Wow, it really has been a long time.

I would love to hear from the younger or at least people with more recent experience on zeroing the M4 style ARs. Does the military still use 300 meters as a standard qualification distance? It was 100, 150, 200, 250, and 300 meters. There might have been 50 yard shots too, but it was 40 rounds spread across those distances. We also had a range that we got to shoot at 550 meters too, but not during standard qualifications.

 

Marine Corps Known Distance Range (Table 1)
200 yds
Slow fire
5rnds sitting
5rnds kneeling
5rnds standing
Rapid fire
10rnds sitting

300 yds
Slow fire
5rnds sitting
Rapid fire
10rnds prone

500 yds
Slow fire
10rnds prone

At least that's what it was when I got out in 2014.


As to the OP

When zeroing with irons we would set our rear sight at 300yds then zero at 36 yds. This would be our BZO. We would confirm that zero during the KD course (Table 1 mentioned above)

Using the RCO/ACOG we would zero at 36 yds aiming with the tip of the red post of the reticle.

 

I look at the AR's and Ak's being 300 yard guns, and consider that range to be max for both. Not that you cant shoot them farther, but they both are stretching it beyond that. The AR loses its ballistic edge around that range (not that I still want to get hit with one that has), and the 7.62 AK's trajectory makes things a challenge.

I live in the sticks and can easily make a 6-700 yard shot right out my back door. Have a few rifles that can make a shot like that too. But you really do need to know your gun and regularly practice at those ranges to be realistic about them.

But then again, why would I take a shot like that? Seems like a reckless thing to do. Just because you "might" be able to, doesnt mean its the smart thing to do.

I used to think the SMG's were the thing, and have owned a number of them, and used to work with them regularly, but these days, the smaller rifle caliber guns just make more sense. A simple level IIa vest stops the pistol caliber guns and the shotguns cold. An AR "pistol" is basically the same size as my old MP5, packs a lot more of a punch, and makes those run of the mill vests a moot point.

 

I think a 200 yard zero for 223 is a happy compromise. For 55gr ball it should put the bullet 1.5" high at 100yds and 8" low at 300.

I also like a 50 yard zero (very similar to above) if I feel 200 yards is all the further I am likely to shoot as it puts ball ammo +\- 1.5" out to 200 yards which is great. However out to 300 yards you're looking at nearly 18".

A lot of guys do the 25 yard zero and I can see why they choose that. I really don't think it makes a lot of difference as long as the shooter is familiar with the trajectory.

 

I do 50/200yd zero.

4-5" from point of aim out to 250 yards, 6” below at 300 yards.
Without adjusting sights.

 

I do something similar.

I zero at 50 and then fine tune at 200 :thumb:

 

Paul, You need to see what your rifle will do at the various distances. An 800 yard zero with NATO spec. ammunition- you'll be 31" high at 100, 78" high at 300 and 90" high at 500.

My M1A is zeroed at 300.
My brand new AR is zeroed at 200.

My opinion on .223 and 7.62x39 is that both are effective 300 yard rifles. Zeroed at 200
you won't be off more than 3" or so out to about 250 yards with the .223, 225 yards with the 7.62x39.

 

This will give you some info on zeroing your ar15.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?65679-AR-15-Zeros-and-Trajectories

Find the bullet you shoot and the kind of ar you have.

 

My private range is 100yds, so....

 

One inch high at 25 yards. Hits almost dead on at 300. Around here, hunting is usually less than 100 yards and I'm not shooting terrorists in Fallujah.

Jeff

 

This entire thread is why I switched to the Point-Blank Zero. Proper use of that method produces a guaranteed shot group within six inches (6") of POA from the end of the muzzle out to 300 yards -- without having to guess at distance.

I like to keep it simple.

 

Funny....The typical AR zero IS a PBZ.:thumb:

I was trained with the A1, we used the 25/250 meter zero, which put us within 4" of POA from the gun to 300+ yards. I aimed at the head/neck on 300 meter targets, and never missed one in 4 years of qualifying.

Faster bullets can put you even flatter, and extend that out even more.

Reading this thread...I don't think a lot of us understand a "zero" at all.

A 25 yard zero with 55 gain .223 at 3240 fps puts you 3" high at 100 yards, so saying you "zero 3 inches high" at 100 is ACTUALLY a 25 yard zero.

 

I live in a rural area and am zero'd at 100y. When speed is mandatory (up close) I don't want to aim 3' low, I want to aim dead on. When the target is further out I have more time and will adjust accordingly. Also, most of my reticles are designed for 100y zeros.

 

https://www.leupold.com/hunting-shooting/scopes/vx-3i-riflescopes/

THIS!

Zero to one hundred, send your cartridge data to leupold and they send you a custom turret.

my eyes are too old for irons, oh I can work em up close but I quit shooting rifles without scopes years ago!

 

My AR is set up [s/s 18" bull barrel, 1:8" mid gas length] for a "designated marksman" type of role. Scope's zeroed for 450 yards with "AR calibrated" reticle graduations that will take me to 950 yards. The iron sights are zeroed at 25 yards for 0-300 yard engagements. I used the small aperture to sight it in but have the large aperture flipped into position for fast[er] acquisition.

 

I forgot to mention that my AK is set up 1" high at 25 yards...as is my Yugo

 

I sight the AR and AK for 100y, for a couple of reasons.

In the 30+ years I've been playing with them, I pretty much have the drop figured out to 400.

Secondly, after 30+ years my eyes aren't what they once were so irons get less and less use outside of short range, less than 100y.

There is a reason I run glass on everything I depend on, see above.

I can't justify shooting past 400y. I've done it and know the come up and windage, but it's not realistic.

 

I agree with Miles to go.Since most shots are going to be within 100 yards and rarely beyond 200 yards with either weapon a longer sight in for those calibers serves no purpose. Especially the 7.62x39 with it's rainbow trajectory. I would rather be ready at close range without having to calculate hold under. Could see in a very powerful very flat shooting cartridge when you anticipate shoots at a particular range. But to place shots beyond 200-300 yards you need to know bullet drop and range anyway.
I used to sight in at 200 on my 7MM but changed to 100 as it is easier to calculate drop for me in field conditions.

 

I sight everything for a 200 yard zero and memorize the drop for 300 and 400. Beyond that- don't shot ( at least with Ar's and Ak's).

 

Same as larryp. My 3000 fps 55 gr sp bullets at 50 & 200 yds are zeros, rounds hit 1.5" high at 125 yds. 3", 8", and 15" drops from poa at 250, 300, 350 yds respectively.

 

My son says the PD he works for zeros at 60 yards with their AR's which is also zero at about 260 as I recall, so that works for me also. My .300 WinMag is zeroed at 300 yards.

 

AR /AK's are battle rifles,

Your thoughts?

No they are not. They are carbines in their civilian semiautomatic form and assault rifles (assault rifle: a military rifle capable of both automatic and semiautomatic fire, utilizing an intermediate-power cartridge.) in their select fire military form.

The generalization we were taught at the last agency I worked for was:

0 to 40 yards, shotgun.
25 to 200 yards, carbine. (closer than 25 yards bullet fragments can come back at you if the bullet hits a hard surface.)
Over 200 yards it became the problem of the guy with the scoped rifle.

I still go by this. For longer distances or penetrating heavy cover the 308 or 45/70 come out.

 

I always thought the arguing over semantics was silly. Whatever is in your hands at the time youre doing battle, IS your "battle rifle". Is it not?

 

The last sentence in the post was "Your thoughts?"

So you popup to argue semantics after saying "I always thought the arguing over semantics was silly. "

So are you silly much?

Enjoy your day!

 

Yea, youre right. I should know better than to bring it up.

No sense stirring up those with the little **** lolly syndrome. :

 

So this is not a place for conversation then? Because it seems like every thread anymore must eventually devolve into a penis measuring competition. Words have meaning. When those meanings are changed to suit what ever whim confusion reigns supreme and urinating matches erupt.

 

The ****ing matches often/usually erupt because of the insistence of nit-picking "the words", like in this case. Someone seems to always want to point out that your choice of "whatever" , isnt what it is, because it doenst fit some definition thrown around on the web, by the armchair commandos. Being able to actually do something with it, doesnt seem to matter. Having something with a (correct) title, does.

Theres no doubt, the battle rifle vs assault rifle thing is usually a measuring device type of thing though, especially on the internet and in the gun shops.

What I do find entertaining is, the "wordy" excuses you get at the range, when you ask the boasters to show you what they can do (with whatever, and no, nooooo, not sitting at that bench, out here down in the dirt, or on your hind feet). Hmmm, I guess there must be something wrong with that gun, eh? :thumb:

 

An example of the confusion:
A poster starts asking about his 7.62 battle rifle's ability to shoot through cover. It is assumed he is talking about a 7.62 NATO/.308 when he is really talking about his 7.62X39 whatever. All the advice given him about what his rifle will defeat is wrong and he comes back all POed when his AK won't shoot through a 12" oak tree, claiming the people who replied to him told him lies that could have gotten him killed. (actual conversation, the names were redacted to protect the guilty).

That is why semantics matter.

 

Except when the rifle in your hands, no matter what it is, when youre doing battle, is in fact your "battle rifle", regardless of caliber, this or that, and what others think it should be called.

A single shot .22 in my hands at the moment of battle, is my battle rifle, is it not? If Im assaulting with it, its my "assault rifle", and if Im hunting with it, its my "hunting rifle", if Im target shooting with it, its my "target rifle". It can be any rifle, of any caliber, doesnt matter, it is what it is, in the moment. Except on the internet, where words seem to carry more weight than physical things, but then again, in a weird sort of way, that does sort of make sense.

No matter what it is, what you think it is, or what you want to call it, having it zeroed and being able to use it "on demand", is probably a good thing too, dont you think?

Or are they "Battle Words"?

Then again, if Im assaulting you with them, or hunting with them....... :