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Windfarms killing birds, no prosecution

8.7K views 49 replies 25 participants last post by  chuckbyf  
#1 ·
news report; Wind Farms are killing birds without penalty while oil companies are fined for far fewer birdkills.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...der-fire-for-bird-kills/?cmpid=GoogleNewsEditorsPicks&google_editors_picks=true

"A study funded by the Alameda County Community Development Agency estimated that 10,000 birds – almost all that are protected by the migratory bird act – are being killed every year at the wind farm in Altamont Pass, Calif.
“The Altamont Pass wind farm does not face the same threat of prosecution, even though the bird kills at Altamont have been repeatedly documented by biologists since the mid-1990s,” Robert Bryce, a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute’s Center for Energy Policy and the Environment, said.
“Biologists believe Altamont, which uses older turbine technology, may be the worst example. But that said, the carnage there likely represents only a fraction of the number of birds killed by windmills,” Bryce told FoxNews.com.
In 2009, ExxonMobil pleaded guilty in federal court to killing 85 birds that came into contact with crude oil and other pollutants in uncovered tanks and wastewater facilities on its property. The birds were protected by the federal act and the company agreed to pay $600,000 in fines. Over the past decade, federal officials have brought hundreds of similar cases against big energy companies operating across the country."

liberal media/politicians turning a blind eye to wind power?
 
#2 ·
"The most common obstacles that are hazardous to migrating birds include tall buildings, electrical wires and poles, wind turbines and similar structures."

"Pollution such as lead poisoning or oil spills is not only harmful to locally affected birds, but to migratory birds as well."

"Many hunting seasons coincide with migration periods, making this perilous time even more threatening for birds."

http://birding.about.com/od/Threats/a/Threats-To-Migrating-Birds.htm

Towers Kill 6.8 Million Birds a Year, Study Estimates
http://www.livescience.com/19908-migratory-birds-killed-towers.html
 
#4 ·
Why limit it to windfarms? How many animals are killed in fields, on roadways, in travel canals every year? How many birds are killed in those big borax drying pools? Why is Fox only reporting on this now?

Because it's all BS spin, that's why. It's not liberal bias, it's no one gives a damn either way and just use this crap to push their own agendas.
 
#5 ·
Why limit it to windfarms? How many animals are killed in fields, on roadways, in travel canals every year? How many birds are killed in those big borax drying pools? Why is Fox only reporting on this now?
Because it's all BS spin, that's why. It's not liberal bias, it's no one gives a damn either way and just use this crap to push their own agendas.
considering the penalties for causing the death of a single Eagle, getting away with killing 2,000 seems excessive. and where are all the environmentalists? no one seems to care, because no one is reporting this (except Fox).
(presumably environmentalists don't watch Fox much)
 
#10 ·
Can't have that evil 'green' power source. How would big oil make money if wind and solar was actually affordable and more popular?

Coal plants cause pollution, so they shut them down.
Nuke plants are dangerous so they shut them down.

Oh hell just shut down the entire power grid because it might kill some beetle, frog, fish, or bird.

How will that shiny new iPhone or iPad work without power?
 
#11 ·
Can't have that evil 'green' power source. How would big oil make money if wind and solar was actually affordable and more popular?
Oh hell just shut down the entire power grid because it might kill some beetle, frog, fish, or bird.

How will that shiny new iPhone or iPad work without power?

Problem is, neither wind nor solar are anywhere near affordable. Our tax $ subsidize the green while we leave coal and oil in the ground.
If solar was found to kill birds the gummint would leave them alone too.

How many readers ever heard about how dangerous the turbines are to birds?
 
#12 ·
The headlines to the articles posted throughout this thread don't even approach the threshold of any plausible "Test of Reasonableness." To wit:

Hunting seasons do not threaten migratory birds. Hunters have no desire to kill and eat the scrawny species which are allegedly struggling for survival. Furthermore, you would be safer if you were invisible and descending by parachute in the woods during turkey season, than if you were invisible and descending by parachute in any urban area. The number of rounds and shells fired at game birds are certainly large, but if they were plotted on a massive piece of paper, they would represent a small percentage of a percentage of a percentage...and on and on...of a percentage of the sky. The odds of accidentally hitting a migrating bird are one in a bazzillion.

Buildings, wind farms, and other obstructions DO, in fact, kill birds. So, in fact, did my in-laws' bay window. Dang pigeon flew right into it and died. So? We're not talking about a tragedy more deadly than if those buildings weren't there. If you look at the wind farms, you don't see a rare-bird graveyard at the foot of each tower. Yes, the birds occasionally get thwacked. They also, occasionally, fly into trees, mountains, hurricanes, tornadoes, and the bare ground. Whoop-di-doo.

Oil spills and lead shot can, of course, kill birds. And gender-bender surgery post-op drugs urinated into toilets are affecting fish. And cinnamon and nutmeg used in holiday recipes finds its way into waterways and affects waterfowl. How far are we going to take this before it gets ridiculous?

In the end, we need to keep in mind that we're talking about animals, not people. Should we try to kill them needlessly? No. Should we take reasonable measures to prevent massive die-offs? Yes. But should we obsess over them to the point where stewardship becomes reverence and even brinks on worship? Certainly not.

I understand that the OP was being a bit facetious in pointing out that "green" technologies aren't necessarily "green." But there are people out there taking this stuff seriously, and their concerns aren't altruistic; they simply want an excuse to crash the economy and institute more control over people. Let's not lend them any credence.
 
#17 ·
We all rely on energy and they all have issues, so you need to pick your poison:

1. Oil -- one of the chief causes of warfare over the 20th century, and the reason America is fighting a permanent neo-colonial war in the Mideast. Publicly subsidized wars for globally-traded Big Oil. Racketeering, controlled largely by the Saudis.

2. Coal -- dirty to mine, dirty to burn.

3. Nuclear -- massively subsidized, plants are often built/engineered by foreign companies (Japanese, German, etc.). Potential for huge calamity, no political solution for the waste.

4. Solar. Takes up space.

5. Wind. Kills birds? Maybe put icons of owls on the blades, and experiment with acoustics to drive them away?

6. Geothermal. Venting bad gas?

I dunno, take your pick. Unless you want to live like the Amish, you'll need to pick something. I've been to a few windfarms myself, and walked among the towers. Don't recall seeing any dead birds. Maybe this is the nuclear or oil lobby tossing out some disinformation?
 
#18 ·
This has been an issue for a while and environmentalists & scientists are fully aware of it. I actually just finished a research paper a couple months ago on the very subject.

Wind energy is a noble source, but has been too highly commercialized and like everything else has become dangerous. The issue is the large fields used by migrating birds/bats and hunting raptors. It is a cleaner and safer technology compared to fossil fuels. But no energy is without risks or impacts.

The newer windmills are trying to integrate technology (auditory and visual warning as well as placement mitigation) to minimize impacts on birds and lessen habitat disturbance and fragmentation. But wind power in general is not as efficient or safe as tidal or renewable natural gas.

the 2010 estimate put the US numbers at around 100,000 a year known bird fatalities by wind turbines. It is one of many issues to be addressed as energy technology progresses. I know there is plenty of sneering and lumping science into political agenda, but thats like lumping AR's in Assault rifles. The rate of biodiversity decline is unprecedented across the globe. Windmills are only a small part of the pie so they are not high priority in MSM and news.

Right now in the wildlife field we are focused on reducing anthropogenic habitat fragmentation and destruction which is the number one cause of wildlife mortality as of present. There's been an emerging trend over the past 5-10 years with wildlife adapting to urban areas because they have no place to go. And sadly city folk tend to freak out when a friendly black bear wanders by their yard.

Back on topic, in the scheme of bird mortality, wind turbines are only a fraction of deaths with the majority caused by building strikes and closely followed or possibly surpassed by domestic pet and invasive species attacks. The issue with the turbines is that most of our raptors and bats are becoming endangered. And as the only flying mammal in the world, bats serve a very critical role in keeping the skeeters at bay.
 
#19 ·
Sounds like you're not very willing to identity the problems and improve the situation (political response?). All engineering is about identifying issues and making improvements. I see no theoretical or physical reason that these turbines couldn't be built away from known migratory paths, with outlines of predator birds on the blades to scare most birds away, acoustic and other experiments, etc. Again, I'd be curious to see a ground photo littered with dead birds or some solid empirical evidence where this massive damage is occurring, and whether any of my simple suggestions -- or more -- haven't been tried. And if not, why not.

In any case, my bet is on geothermal and hydrogen. There's a virtually unlimited source of heat directly below anyone, and no living creature (beyond microbial) would be affected.
 
#25 ·
Owl pictures on the blades would be useless, they are moving usually over 100 miles an hour (yes, they look so slow, but dont forget each blades is well over 100 foot long). New technology uses high frequency acoustic deterrents on remote farms, but as you can imagine people complain if they hear it. They use other visual deterrents and lighting and current regulations require an Enviro Impact Statement prepared before installation to determine proximity to known bird migration routes along ridges and open areas. The science research is keeping good pace with the technology as with most things, but we keep to our own for the most part. Speaking of speed, they are also using speed reduction in blade rotation as a mitigation technique. Overall current estimates put 7.5 birds per turbine annually killed. It seems a small number but these are not your chickadees, these are important insectivores and apex predators.

Here is a quick video. Though this only examples one bird and turbine, the concept is shown how large raptors will hunt around these open fields or use the thermal vent to soar or gain cruise altitude.

Here are a couple technical articles you might be able to find in google scholar that highlight on some of the research

Kulvesky et al. 2007. Wind energy development and wildlife conservation: challenges and opportunities. The Journal of Wildlife Management. 71: 2487-2498

Arnett et al. 2008. Patterns of bat fatalities at wind energy facilities in North America. The Journal of Wildlife Management. 72: 61-78
 
#26 ·
The number of wind farm kills at altamont pass looks inflated. Other numbers I have seen are around 4700/year. There are 4930 turbines there so this is less than 1 bird/turbine/year. Even at 10000 deaths, that is just over 2 bird deaths/turbine/year. One source estimates that wind power causes 4.27 bird deaths per wind turbine per year overall which seems rather high considering that Altamont is considered a particularly bad case. Since this was identified as a problem at Altamont, wind farms built since tend to use cylindrical towers that the birds can't as easily perch on and use lower speed turbines and the towers at altamont pass are being converted. Between the tower type used, the size of the farm, the turbine type, and its location on a major migratory route, and use of guy wires, altamont pass is considered one of the worst cases.

Another detail that is usually omitted is that the birds that are killed at Altamont are generally predatory birds that perch on the towers and then strike the blades while attacking prey (when not distracted by prey they avoid the blades). So each raptor kill there typically also translates directly to another creature's life saved (not counting future kills by the same bird).

Another site, San Gorgonio, kills an estimated 6800birds annually (based on 38 dead birds actually found) but this is 0.01% of the estimated 69 million birds that pass through the valley annually during migration and was considered "biologically insignificant". At another more recent wind farm with 38 turbines (Vansycle Ridge, OR), estimate was 0.63 birds per turbine per year.

Also often ignored is that other methods of power production and distribution tend to be more dangerous to birds. One USFWS employes estimate, cited by the American Bird Conservancy which is behind the wind vs oil bird kill story, was that 440,000 birds are killed by wind farms in the US; this is higher than other estimates (many of which are an order of magnitude lower, and USFWS itself distances itself from this estimate) but this pessimistic number will be used for comparison. Fossil fuel power plants are estimated to kill 32 times as many birds. Power transmission lines kill 398 times as many birds. Windows on buildings are estimated to kill 220 to 2200 times as many birds. Domestic cats kill 227 times as many birds and feral cats slightly more. Hunting kills 227 times as many birds. Cars and trucks 114-227 times as many birds. Agriculture kills 152 times as many birds and pesticide use 173 times as many. Communication towers kill 9 to 114 times as many birds. Nuclear power kills about a quarter less. And airplanes kill 5.5 times less. These are US numbers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_wind_power#Birds



Nevertheless, the same source says that in 1951 "Fisher, a British ornithologist, estimated there are more than 100 billion individual wild birds in the world," and that Leonard Wing (1956) estimated that there were about 5.6 billion birds in the U.S. in summer and about 3.75 billion in winter. In 1931 McAtee estimated 2.6 billion breeding land birds in the U.S. Obviously these numbers are quite dated and only estimates.
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/zoo00/zoo00443.htm
Using 4.675 billion birds in the US, wind turbines kill 0.009% per year (National Academy of Sciences puts it at 0.003%). While windows kill 2-21% and the other listed activities kill 15-38%.

There is a difference in how birds are killed by wind and oil. The oil industry is fined for preventable bird and animal deaths resulting from misconduct. The fines in question are due to open pits of oil; covering these pits would not affect the ability to harvest oil. And charges were dropped back in January after the ABCbirds.org media circus in September. Another source suggests that these ponds actually kill 1973 birds per year that aren't reported by the oil industry.
They are also fined for bird and other animal deaths resulting from oil spills. 6000 birds killed by Deepwater Horizon (recovered bodies, estimated deaths 60,000) and 225,000 (estimate) by Exxon Valdez; not counting other creatures. They are not fined for deaths resulting from collisions with fixed or moving structures including oil derricks, pumps, offshore platforms, or office buildings or vehicle collisions; yet these are probably considerable. They are not fined for their share of the 14 million bird deaths resulting from fossil fuel power plants, or the 175 million deaths from power lines. Or flare stacks; 3000 birds were found dead around a single flare stack in canada in one month. And I ran across a paper that talked about bird deaths from oil slicks surrounding off-shore oil platforms (which attract birds) but didn't find any mention of fines.

abcbirds stated its bird-smart wind campaign, that promotes regulation for wind industry, in 2010 with a $500,000+ grant from the Leon Levy Foundation (and another $100,000+ grant in 2010. ABC's income was about 6.03million in 2010 and 9.742million n 2011, the year of the wind vs oil grandstanding; that is a whopping 61.5% increase in donations in just one year. Could this have more to do with fundraising and exposure than birds? From their 2010 Annual report, they promote "mandatory regulations" for the wind industry but offer "recommendations" for the oil industry:
Bird-Smart Wind Program Spins into Action: With
support from the Leon Levy Foundation, ABC launched
its major new Bird-Smart Wind Campaign that seeks
to address the hazards to birds posed by the burgeoning
wind power industry. ABC is pro bird-smart wind power,
which requires the industry to abide by mandatory
standards that prevent bird collisions with turbines and
their associated structures and protect sensitive bird
habitats from the expanding wind power footprint.
...
Focus on the Gulf Oil Spill: ABC produced a report on
the spill with specific recommendations to improve the
protection of key nesting areas for resident bird species
in the Gulf of Mexico, and has provided it to the U.S.
Fish and Wildlife Service and members of Congress.
Recommendations include using better booms to
contain oil and protect nesting islands, and fencing off
critical beach nesting areas to prevent trampling by crews
cleaning up oil in the area. ABC is also spearheading
the raising of resources for multiple partner projects to
restore or create additional habitat in the Gulf region at
key sites for nesting seabirds and wintering shorebirds.
Watch ABC’s Bird News Network video on the Gulf oil
spill at www.abcbirds.org/newsandreports/video.html.
Oh, and while ABCbirds seems to ignore many threats that kill orders of magnitudes more birds than wind turbines, they seem to have it in for feral cats:
"I detest the killing of cats and dogs or anything else," says George Fenwick, president of the American Bird Conservancy. "But this is out of control, and there may be no other answer."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...10/03/free-roaming-cats-at-center-of-renewed-health-bird-threat-debate/1600569/
Coincidentally, they got $500,000+ in 2011, the same year as the wind vs oil hatchet job, from the DJ&T foundation that speciallizes in spay/neuter programs.

In a study published late last year, for example, conservation biologists Todd Arnold and Robert Zink found that, “although millions of North American birds are killed annually by collisions with manmade structures, this source of mortality has no discernible effect on populations.”
http://www.voxfelina.com/2012/10/us.../10/usa-today-free-roaming-cats-at-center-of-renewed-health-bird-threat-debate/
Which is attributed to a paper with this abstract:
Avian biodiversity is threatened by numerous anthropogenic factors and migratory species are especially at risk. Migrating birds frequently collide with manmade structures and such losses are believed to represent the majority of anthropogenic mortality for North American birds. However, estimates of total collision mortality range across several orders of magnitude and effects on population dynamics remain unknown. Herein, we develop a novel method to assess relative vulnerability to anthropogenic threats, which we demonstrate using 243,103 collision records from 188 species of eastern North American landbirds. After correcting mortality estimates for variation attributable to population size and geographic overlap with potential collision structures, we found that per capita vulnerability to collision with buildings and towers varied over more than four orders of magnitude among species. Species that migrate long distances or at night were much more likely to be killed by collisions than year-round residents or diurnal migrants. However, there was no correlation between relative collision mortality and long-term population trends for these same species. Thus, although millions of North American birds are killed annually by collisions with manmade structures, this source of mortality has no discernible effect on populations.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0024708
Oh, and a few snippets:
Eastern North America also has >60,000 communication towers >60m tall and documented kills of migratory birds at individual towers have ranged from 80 to 3,200 birds per year
...
Estimates of total collision mortality from communication towers in North America range from 0.94 to 50 million birds annually [11], [12], whereas estimates of collision mortality with windows range from 3.5 million up to 5 billion birds annually [9], [10], [12]. Using the most frequently cited median estimates of 25 million mortalities from collisions with towers [11] and 1 billion mortalities from collisions with windows [9], these two mortality sources in aggregate represent 21% of the estimated breeding population of 4.9 billion North American landbirds.
...
At one of the longest monitored collision sites, 15,987 ovenbirds collided with a TV tower during a 38-year monitoring period [17], for an average of 420/yr.
Oh, and one mile of high tension power lines results in an estimated 200 bird deaths per year.

When you consider bird deaths from communication towers and transmission lines, wind turbine deaths seem remarkably low.

And this page suggests that even from the perspective of bird safety, ABCbirds campaign is irresponsible as even without any further reduction in bird kills, wind farms are a net benefit to birds:
However, replacing all fossil fuel generation with wind turbines world-wide would save roughly 70 MILLION birds’ lives annually. Wind energy is actually the form of generation with the lowest impact on wildlife. Wind farms kill less than 0.0001 per cent of birds killed by human actions annually, and perhaps 0.00000075 per cent of birds on the planet annually.
...
Fossil fuel generation kills 17 time more birds per gigawatt-hour than wind energy
...
Human causes kill up to 1.5% of birds annually; wind farms kill 0.00000075%
...

It is also worth considering the alternative: more fossil fuel generation. An energy governance study done in Singapore compared fatalities across forms of electrical generation in 2009 and published its results. Wind farms and nuclear power stations are responsible each for between 0.3 and 0.4 fatalities per gigawatt-hour (GWh) of electricity while fossil-fueled power stations are responsible for about 5.2 fatalities per GWh. (Coincidentally, human fatalities per TWh of electricity are roughly 0.4 for nuclear and wind, and roughly 5 for coal according to one study; the very similar ratios between human and avian mortality are striking)
...
It’s also worth noting that while some wind farms kill a few birds per wind turbine per year, many wind farms kill almost no birds or actually no birds per year.

“However, there has been a noticeable absence or low frequency of avian deaths at other wind farms. Kerlinger (1997) conducted a five-month survey at the Searsburg, Vermont Wind Energy Facility and found no fatalities. Lubbers (1988) surveyed eighteen 300kW wind turbines in Oosterbierum, Denmark, and found only 3 fatalities over 75 days, or less than 0.8 per turbine per year. Marsh (2007) found a bird casualty rate of 0.22 birds per turbine year after monitoring 964 turbines across 26 wind farms in Northern Spain. Rigorous observation of a 22-turbine wind farm in Wales documented that it has killed no birds, and researchers found a shift in bird activity to a neighboring area (Lowther, 1998).”

...
Wind turbines have been added to the list of bird killers in recent years. This is not because they kill significant numbers of birds; the worst cases have a handful of birds per turbine per year. According to the best impartial sources, they kill perhaps 20,000 – 33,000 birds annually in the USA. As the US has roughly 20 per cent of the wind generation capacity in the world, assuming 150,000 bird deaths world-wide isn’t unreasonable. Of course, numbers of wind turbines are increasing, but so is siting sensitivity and mitigations (more below). Compared to the roughly 1.5 billion from other sources, this cannot be considered significant. Even 10 times the the number of mortalities – which one anti-wind organisation, the American Bird Conservancy, claims – still makes wind turbines a very small contributor to avian fatalities.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2012/want-to-save-70-million-birds-a-year-build-more-wind-farms-18274
Maybe this is why the major bird organizations have long been proponents of wind power. The National Audubon Society and the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (Europes largest) support wind turbines. While RSPB works at the planning stage to minimize bird kills at wind farms, they support wind energy and even plan to install a wind turbine at their headquarters.
On balance, Audubon strongly supports wind power as a clean alternative energy source that reduces the threat of global warming. Location, however, is important. Many National Audubon Society Chapters and State Programs are actively involved in wind-power siting issues in their communities. Each project has a unique set of circumstances and should be evaluated on its own merits.
http://policy.audubon.org/audubon-statement-wind-power
 
#27 ·
estimated that 10,000 birds killed every year at the wind farm in Altamont Pass, Calif.
Towers Kill 6.8 Million Birds a Year, Study Estimates
10k birds a year? Thats 27 birds a day. When the shtf I'm gonna bug out and live under one of those towers. Free electric and food handed to you while you sit on your ass. Sounds great.
 
#30 ·
First off, Fox News reports on most things that the other idiot news stations either slant or not report at all. And as far as the birds or bats in the air that are being killed? I too, have walked under the wind turbines and we have many in areas of my state where wind is huge. I think "green" energy like this is far better than oil dependence or dirty coal. I think we as humans should invest in more money to use more ways to deal with our nuclear waste from our nuclear plants. We need to erect more wind turbine and solar panels to start changing over to those energy uses. Those three (nuclear,wind,solar) are our cheapest and cleanest ways to produce and use energy. I am not as big on the water energy such as dams unless it is on a large scale like Hoover or others of that magnitude. Smaller dams that prevent fish from spawning seem to affect too many critical environmental concerns that are not worth their uses. But if we kill some birds every year from the wind turbines, it is part of the circle of life and not on a big scale that we should stop using them and regress into others we graduated from decades ago like steam. It just seems like each time something is invented or used, some environmentalists or lobbyists for them (motivated always by money and greed) seems to have an argument as to why something shouldn't be used because of any number of reasons. As a human race, we need to STOP being motivated by power, money and greed and start thinking of our own survival and do the right thing. Or our race will eventually become erased.
 
#33 ·
That was a Red Tail that was killed in that video. I am a raptor, eagle (among other animals) trapper for usfws. The blade tips will move much in excess of 100 mph, depends on wind speed and how they govern the rotor speed. When hawks and eagles migrate, they ride or follow the updraft that the prevailing wind makes as it forms a column shooting straight up after it strikes the side of the ridge. Hawks can only detect movement of around 20 mph or less and they have extreme tunnel vision that they only use for hunting/defense purposes, that is why the tips get them. On a good high blow day, they can "ride" and cover over 400 miles of territory. On a typical day, if you catch it right, you will count 300 birds plus in a few hours as they "haul" with the wind, down the ridges, skipping to the next one over when they run out. This bird was soaring and this is not the typical kill. Not that it makes a buttload bit of difference these days, hawks and eagles reside at the top of the food chain. They are our best "envriomental indicators" if you will. If their numbers go down, whatever is killing them will trickle down to us. This is how we discovered issues regarding ddt, through bald eagle egg shell thining.

The kill rate is grossly under reported, has been for years. College students and others have been locked up for b&e into fenced areas, energy co's squelch the publicity. Many, many thousands are killed every year, perhaps a couple thousand, per year, per ridge, with 30 operational mills on it. They really can fly now, boy have I seen some of their best. Nothing like a big old hag golden all folded up, talons out in a screaming stoop at 150mph comming right into you hands. To the better things in life...
 
#36 ·
Do some research. Even the National Audubon society capitulated and would not argue that the carbon that is offset by windmills saves millions of birds over what they kill.

So what if a windmill kills 2, 200, or 20000 birds in it's lifetime? It's carbon offset saved ~ 20,000,000 birds and gave them a life.

Call it just the way the world works. We kill so we may live. Man always has done it, and must do it to survive. Until aliens or Pam Anderson brings us some new method to stay alive, it is what it is. :D::cool:


Image
 
#40 ·
Enviro-nazis? Sounds to me that "no theoretical or physical reason that these turbines couldn't be built away from known migratory paths" is an extremely reasonable solution. Or, does the wind only blow in the same path as migrating birds. If they don't agree with "my" short sighted vision, then they are nazis? How about forgetting about name calling if you don't really know the real issues or have an idea of how to deal with a problem.
 
#43 ·
I still fail to grasp the love affair with windmills. Their power is erratic, they require power input (VARS) from regular power plants to generate any electricity, and they are expensive to build and maintain.
They may make you feel good but there are other options that frankly make more sense - monetarily and environmentally.