So you think that me being able to go to any hospital at any time in any state and area I am in for any injury and get treatment is a bad thing ? Wow I would certainly hate to die just cause a hospital wanted more money then I could afford or some dumb political/ technicality reason. I'm not helded to ransom by an employer who might give me a **** wage like $12 an hour and some **** " medical " coverage. I have had to use a hospital on a few occasions for my sons and my wife giving birth and it's great not having to think about if I can afford to go or if its the right hospital or even if it's just to see a gp.

Health care should never be about profit ever ! And I am sorry i don't pretent to understand the American system and don't bash me over my opinions but the people who tell you that your system needs to stay only say that for one reason and that is to pull the wool over your eyes to hide the truth that is your system is about money and how much can be made from the people. Once you wake up and see health care should be about the benefit of the people and never about how much money can be made the better.

Do you really think that lets say a cure for cancer is found, now in America do you really think the people who make money out of your medical system are going to think how good this is cause it will save so many people's live or will they be crunching the numbers thinking how much they stand to lose or make out of it.

And before you say how a system we are on just doesn't work let me tell you it does we all pay a small amount out of our wages and people who earn over a certain amount of money pay a little more. Now it is obvious that it's more complicated them that and in depth but it works as everyone should have the right to get medical treatment in a western world that has the means to.

 

So you think that me being able to go to any hospital at any time in any state and area I am in for any injury and get treatment is a bad thing ? Wow I would certainly hate to die just cause a hospital wanted more money then I could afford or some dumb political/ technicality reason....................QUOTE]

Doesn't work that way. It is against the law in America for a hospital to turn away someone that requires emergency care. If you show up at the emergency room you will get treated. In fact, you will be given the very best treatment in the world if that is what is required to save your life.

 

Sorry... You really lost my interest after the ayn rand. That's one evil woman.

 

Harper sucks and you are getting on my nerves

 

 

Free markets built the drugs, and medical technology which America and Europe pioneered in the 1950-2000 period.

This is why people still travel from around the world to have medical procedures conducted here.

Also no one is refused medical care in the USA, although I agree that being rich will get you better care.

Once we completely bankrupt the country, with deficit spending, medical care will finally be totally fair, NO ONE will get modern medical care, it will not matter how rich or poor you are... WE WILL HAVE THE SOCIALIST UTOPIA!!!

And liberals suggest that this is less cruel than free markets?

 

No it didn't...government did. Private companies will not invest in something that is way too risky or that won't pay off without help from the government.

There is no money in experimental drugs and medical procedures. Its way to risky and they can be sued if something goes wrong. The government funds university medical research and provides grants to pharmaceutical companies.

Look at them all...that's evil socialism right there..hundreds of grants for research.

NIH Funding Opportunities & Notices Search Results
http://grants.nih.gov/grants/guide/...ch_results.htm?scope=rfa&scope=pa&year=active&text_curr=&Search.x=25&Search.y=2

The public pays the costs and private companies get to patent and market the profits. A socialist/capitalist mix. Its called keynesian economics and its what has made the US and Europe what they are from the 1930's till today.

Thomas Starzl carried out the first human liver transplant at the University of Bolder Colorado.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Starzl

Christiaan Barnard carried out the first human heart transplant at the University of Cape Town.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiaan_Barnard

James Hardy carried out the first human lung transplant at the University of Mississippi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hardy_(surgeon)

Almost forgot...people in the US travel to socialist Canada for medical treatment because the US prices for healthcare are so high....obviously all those union doctors in the states..lol

Medical Tourism in Canada
http://www.findprivateclinics.ca/resources/general/medical-tourism.php

In Canada the insurance companies were taken out of the equation hence the huge drop in prices for medical care. All Canadian doctors still have private medical practices. Anyone that has ever dealt with a crappy home or car insurance company knows how they all try to get out of coverage and have paper work up the ying yang. When you multiply that 10x through various different health insurance companies you can see why costs and headaches add up to the point where people get tired of bureaucratic bs and go for universal health. Your health is not like a car or house where you can wait for the paperwork delays in order to get coverage..

 

People don't just travel to the USA to get medical care but I do agree that a system that sees billions in profit will have the means to offer newer tech first even if it's only to make more money. And maybe would be good to see and hear stories from people from these " free clinics" you have in America. Can some Americans please inform me about how much you guys pay for police to come when you call 911 and have the police solve crimes for you when it happens and how much the fire departments charge you to put fires out at your house when they happen or to try save your house from a bush fire that might come close to your house. It will be interesting to see how it compares

 

People don't just travel to the USA to get medical care ..........

Well, in fact, they do. Off the top of my head I can tell you that the former Shaw of Iran did. Other world leaders have. My best friend had a father in law from Canada come to the U.S. for the sole purpose of treating his Multiple Sclerosis. A former boss of mine who was or UK/Iraqi citizenship routinely traveled to the states for cancer treatment. I am sure there are other examples.

 

Yes but then what will you be charged for that treatment

 

No such thing as free health care!

Either you pay in the front or in the back! But it will be paid!! Taxes, insurance or cash, its all the same!!

 

Ther does need to be reforms in the health care industy but socialization is not good.

Of course you will never be able to change the minds of the perpetual "victim" and "gimme" people who think they should get what they "need" from government at the cost of others.

 

Please tell me what happens to the money you pay in a year for health cover and say you never use it ? Does it role over or something like that money just doesn't vanish does it what happens to it.

 

And I am not hear to make a fight or trash on America at all I just want to understand how things work there as as far as I am concerned you guys have the same values as us Australians a free society and and a democratic one at that.

 

Please do not try to compare Australia to America, it only shows your true ignorance. Australia is not a free society and has not been since 1996 when you all gave up your guns without so much as a whimper of protest. Tell John Howard he can kiss my a**. Blessings from America!!!! The only FREE nation left on Earth.:thumb:

 

to the op, you are lucky. by the time you get out of med school and are practicing, you won't have to experience patients crying in the exam room because they cannot afford the medicines to cure their cancer. worse yet is when it is the parents of a young child that is diagnosed. you won't have to wonder or worry about any particular patient because you knew the meds you prescribed for them they could not afford. you won't have to hear the despair of so many because their insurance was cancelled and no other company will insure them because of pre-existing conditions.
this is due in no small part to the new health care laws going into effect.

and if you are so cold that you cannot empathize or sympathize with the patients you'll be treating, then you will be best served by confining your "practice" to a lab.

just retired after a 30+ year medical career and, yes, i've seen it all. fortunately, not too many like you.

 

this is due in no small part to the new health care laws going into effect.

The main thing the new health care "reform" law is going to do is penalize people for not purchasing health insurance and the health insurance companies helped write the law along with Romney's wrecking crew from his days as Governor of Taxachussetts.

...and if you are so cold that you cannot empathize or sympathize with the patients you'll be treating, then you will be best served by confining your "practice" to a lab.

just retired after a 30+ year medical career and, yes, i've seen it all. fortunately, not too many like you.

I seriously doubt this person is involved in medicine at all. It has every appearance of being one of the virulent strain that infests political/financial forums here under another name...or perhaps just another clone of same. Doesn't matter much, does it? :

If they are in medicine, they do openly exhibit the bedside manner of the proctologist, don't they?

 

Today is December 1, 2012 and this person joined this forum today and this is the first dip in the water...and this person is new here? Yeah, right. Hahahaha! Another bongo drum beater for "the rich deserve everything" and everyone else deserves nothing. How many user names does this person have?

 

Look I am very open to other peoples opinions and to also change mine, I really would like to hear from someone who is in America why the medical system you guys have there is the only one that can work and how places like France, UK, Canada, and so on just doesn't like don't other countries have trained surgeons etc are these people not on good money. Maybe these places do not have the most up to date gear all the time and yes I 100% agree about waiting times but I guess it comes to about weighing up the pros and cons and evening it out as much as possible.

 

Look I am very open to other peoples opinions and to also change mine, I really would like to hear from someone who is in America why the medical system you guys have there is the only one that can work and how places like France, UK, Canada, and so on just doesn't ..............

You seem to be under the impression that we believe we have the only system that works. That is simply not true. We just have one that works for us and others keep trying to change it and lie about it.

I don't care what the Aussies, Brits, Kanucks, etc... have for a system. I honestly don't and I do not know anybody who does except for those who live there.

 

We've had health care in Canada for a number of years now and the world hasn't ended for us. many places in europe have health care and are considered to have some of the best medical systems in the world.

I am a little worried that a medical student, who's being trained to save lives, seems to be so mostly interested in getting rich instead but hey different people have different priorities. Personaly I am grateful for the health care in my country. I'm in my twenties and on my own, and ended up with a major medical emergeancy. There is no way it would get done without health care and they can only keep me in emergeancy long enough to stabalize it, then I'm out again. On and off for a week. When I am once again in good shape I'll happily contribute part of my tax's to health care.

 

How is it that we always see such extremes? Socialized medicine is evil. Socialized medicine is good. Is there no space in between these extremes?

Laugh if you will, but when I see the word socialized, I know the person with whom I'm dealing is most likely brainwashed. There is no understanding of what the word means, just a hatred for the concept... a result of the farm within which one is raised, and the propaganda that farm spreads. Propaganda is like manure, it's better to rise above it than to wallow in it.

Socialization is not evil. Socialization is what you are consenting to every time you purchase insurance or pay taxes. It is what provides for bridges, roads, clean water, and public service to name just a few examples. The issue is not socialization, but the means by which it is carried out. There is nothing wrong with the concept, until greedy or self-serving individuals get their mitts into it.

If you believe in medical insurance, you believe in an opt in socialization system. If you believe in a system such as Canada has, you believe nobody should bear undue risk and thus support a means of leveling the risk for all. Pray tell, which of these two positions is evil?

You are young and your health is strong. You have no children, and perhaps no spouse. Tell me you don't prefer a system where risk is spread across society, when it is your mother, daughter, or spouse you see dying unnecessarily. Those of us who are compassionate are happy to pay a little each month so nobody has to go through that. Is something wrong with us? I don't think so.

 

How is it that we always see such extremes? Socialized medicine is evil. Socialized medicine is good. Is there no space in between these extremes?

There are some people who think theft is wrong, no matter what uniform the robbers wear.

Laugh if you will, but when I see the word socialized, I know the person with whom I'm dealing is most likely brainwashed. There is no understanding of what the word means, just a hatred for the concept... a result of the farm within which one is raised, and the propaganda that farm spreads. Propaganda is like manure, it's better to rise above it than to wallow in it.

The definition of socialism is common ownership of the means of production. Some people believe that people have a right to what they produce or trade peacefully with other people.

Socialization is not evil. Socialization is what you are consenting to every time you purchase insurance or pay taxes. It is what provides for bridges, roads, clean water, and public service to name just a few examples. The issue is not socialization, but the means by which it is carried out. There is nothing wrong with the concept, until greedy or self-serving individuals get their mitts into it.

Buying insurance is not the same thing as paying taxes. One of them is optional, the other one is forced upon you, with violence if you should resist.

If you believe in medical insurance, you believe in an opt in socialization system. If you believe in a system such as Canada has, you believe nobody should bear undue risk and thus support a means of leveling the risk for all. Pray tell, which of these two positions is evil?

The evil which anti-socialists speak of in this case is the act of theft. If free people decide to create a system where the many pitch in to help the few voluntarily, there is no problem.

You are young and your health is strong. You have no children, and perhaps no spouse. Tell me you don't prefer a system where risk is spread across society, when it is your mother, daughter, or spouse you see dying unnecessarily. Those of us who are compassionate are happy to pay a little each month so nobody has to go through that. Is something wrong with us? I don't think so.

Coercion and compassion can not coexist. If i steal from you and give to the poor, neither of us have been compassionate.

 

Just some hard information that is on topic about people who travel to the USA for medical care:

A McKinsey and Co. report from 2008 found that between 60,000 to 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care​

Allison Van Dusen (May 29, 2008). "U.S. Hospitals Worth The Trip". Forbes.

http://www.forbes.com/2008/05/25/he...ealth-hospitals-care-forbeslife-cx_avd_outsourcing08_0529healthoutsourcing.html

 

Hi,

I am a pre-medical student, it is difficult to talk to people today about why socialized medicine is bad. It is bad for economy, bad for individuals bad for freedom.

Adults behave like children on this topic and refuse to understand the facts about socialized healthcare. It is a nice concept to have everyone get free medicine, but terrible in practice. Healthcare is a service like everything else and must be subject to free markets.

To say people have a "right" to healthcare is as absurd as saying people have a right to nice food, nice house, nice things because you are alive. False. You must earn them with your hard work and skill you create. If you cannot afford $1,000,000 procedure, tough, that is life. That is what private insurance, charities and individual goodwill is for. It is not right to force others to pay for you.

Here is a video I hope many of you will value. As individuals we can do very little about socialism in the United States, except through informing and educating people of its dangers. Education is key.

A group of doctors pushing for free market medicine is AAPS, Association of American Physicians and Surgeons. They have many physicians from around the world speak against socialized medicine, including doctors from Canada, Italy, UK. www.youtube.com/aapsonline


This is a speech by Yaron Brook (from the Ayn Rand Center) which discusses government medicine. youtube.com/watch?v=U55-W3nI96o

A great speech by Leonard Peikoff about medicine:

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageSer...site/PageServer?pagename=arc_leonard_peikoff_medicine_the_death_of_a_profession



The key to avoiding this system is stay healthy. Start today, eat well, exercise. Don't rely on the government for anything, especially your health!

Share with others if you value what is said.


Anita Bath


"Poverty, ignorance, illness and other problems are part of nature and of existence. Man has to maintain his life by his own effort, the values he needs - such as wealth or knowledge - are not given to him automatically, as a gift of nature, but have to be discovered and achieved by his own thinking and work. One's sole obligation toward others, in this respect, is to maintain a social system that leaves men free to achieve, to gain and to keep their lives.

The moral purpose of a man's life is the achievement of his own happiness. This does not mean that he is indifferent to all men, that human life is of no value to him and that he has no reason to help others in an emergency. But it does mean that he does not subordinate his life to the welfare of others, that he does not sacrifice himself to their needs, that the relief of their suffering and any help he gives is an exception, not a rule, an act of generosity, not of moral duty."

-Ayn Rand

Anita,
I am a tactical medic and street medic, and have been for many years. My brother is a doctor and has been for many years. You are premed going through a system that has been regulated and adjusted from day one to teach doctors are above reproach. Argue all you want I have been there.
i comend you for going into the medical field, but before you start telling people how the medical field should be run and how things should be spend some time out in the real world, in practice and find out how things really work. But at the same time, once out in the world open your eyes and take a look at how things work and forget what your professors pushed on you in school

 

I look at it this way. Nurses have really gown down hill since the unions took over.

Just think how good the doctors will be when they join the Nurses Union.

 

Hi,

I am a pre-medical student, it is difficult to talk to people today about why socialized medicine is bad. It is bad for economy, bad for individuals bad for freedom.

Adults behave like children on this topic and refuse to understand the facts about socialized healthcare. It is a nice concept to have everyone get free medicine, but terrible in practice. Healthcare is a service like everything else and must be subject to free markets.

To say people have a "right" to healthcare is as absurd as saying people have a right to nice food, nice house, nice things because you are alive. False. You must earn them with your hard work and skill you create. If you cannot afford $1,000,000 procedure, tough, that is life. That is what private insurance, charities and individual goodwill is for. It is not right to force others to pay for you.

I think it's great that you feel you are doing a service by advocating something you believe in.
Yet you would be wise to look at the bigger picture. You say you are a pre-med student and so I can guess 2 things. First, you are rather young and secondly, you will now profess everything you learn in med-school as gospel for the rest of your life...and that's fine because again, you feel you are helping.

PLEASE keep some things in mind.
1. People don't choose their genetics and predispositions
2. Eating healthy (organic raw whole foods) is quite expensive
3. Way too many people are stuck in the rat race trying to just make ends meet and so they are stressed. stress, which as you should know, can manifest itself in a variety of health issues


I saw red when I saw your post. It has much more to do with my personal problems within our healthcare system and so I am admittedly biased.
I was born with Transposition of the Great Arteries and underwent the Mustard procedure @ 8 months. Due to this I have severe cardiomyopathy. I had a defib/pacemaker put in my chest @ age 25. That will turn your world upsidedown. I've been in and out of hospitals due to my condition and honestly probably won't live to see 40. Yet I had to undergo 3 severe arrythmias which included v tac and had to be defibbed out before anyone one even consider an ablation or implant because my crappy ins. decided it was 'non-life threatening'.

I didn't choose this and millions and millions of people don't either. I nearly died because I didn't have $200,000 when I was in my early 20's. Shame on me I guess. The only reason I was able to get the surgery was after being bounced to the 3rd hospital, the surgeon told me she was basically going to have to lie and state I had yet another arrythmia and so it would be considered a life-saving treatment. I'm thankful, but now I'm hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt for something which I had no control over.

I was in a very severe car wreck when I was 8 years old and I was bleeding badly and I could see my femur through my skin. I remember fading in and out lying on a table and there were doctors around me. I remember them talking and one of them said something about I was going to have to be medi vac'd to a hospital 150 miles away because of 'provider'. (I actually had to ask my parents later about this because I didn't know what it meant) Luckily for me, again, there was a doctor there who said screw it and I went in for surgery then and there. They opened me up and found my liver was torn in two places and additional bleeding...meaning had they sent me to the other hospital I would have died en route.

Also keep in mind that there are 85000 chemicals used in common products today, and only about 5000 of them have been tested. We are now finding many of these chemicals have long term nasty effects. Plastics, cheap foods, contaminated water/air, etc. that make us sick. Not to mention perscription meds which can carry nasty adverse side effects. What I am trying to say is we often do not know what is going to make us sick, let alone when.

I don't have all the answers and it seems our gov could mess up a wet dream, but what you are advocating doesn't solve any issues either. I don't like Obamacare but other countries, like Japan, do have a functioning and productive healthcare systems.

You are right about taking care of yourself. Everybody should attain a real education in nutrition. Nutrition is vastly understated and even seen as dangerous. ...that is truly sad.

I could go on but I digress as most have probably stopped reading by now.Lol

 

The fact that life happens does not constitute healthcare as a right. You are welcome to prioritize insurance over a bigger house payment, newer car, eating out, cigarettes, alcohol etc. etc. etc.

IMO, only children to 18 should be guaranteed healthcare. If a soldier can die for freedom at 18, then the rest of us can accept the cost of liberty at 18. Just be glad that we live in a day when modern healthcare exists if we wish to prioritize it.

 

Hi,

I am a pre-medical student...

I appreciate your honesty, and with that statement I stopped reading any further.

 

America doesnt have the best medical care when my brother was diagnosed with cancer we moved from America to Germany because they had better medical care for his type of cancer.

 

To say people have a "right" to healthcare is as absurd as saying people have a right to nice food, nice house, nice things because you are alive. False. You must earn them with your hard work and skill you create. If you cannot afford $1,000,000 procedure, tough, that is life.

You mean, tough, that is death for you. Many people who need expensive treatments are uninsurable so yea tough luck.

What you really say is that people have no natural right to life.

And yea, I do say people up to a certain age (where they can start taking care of themselves) actually HAVE the right to a house, food and health care. Kids don't ask for being born.

Not that I really believe that you are a student and that stuff.

 

And yea, I do say people up to a certain age (where they can start taking care of themselves) actually HAVE the right to a house, food and health care. Kids don't ask for being born.

The only thing(s) we have a "RIGHT " to are those things that we earn. The only "Entitled Persons" are those who have paid into the "Entitlement" funds, social security, retirement, medicare, etc... so it's not kids that I'm talking about.

I'm talking about their sorry assed parents that lay up on their worthless asses and live off me and people like me who work every day and have worked every day for decades. NO, kids don't ASK to be born, but folks who lay up and breed just so they can spit out more babies thus getting more government assistance shouldn't be given "assistance" all we're doing is enabling them to continue slopping at the public trough. Damn, take the kids and raise them...we're having to anyway, maybe they can be taught how to break this chain of dependence by someone other than their useless assed mommas & daddies.

Government assistance SHOULD be a VERY TEMPORARY thing. It SHOULDN'T be something that people depend on GENERATION AFTER GENERATION!!! We have bred a society, many of who's members believe that they should be taken care of from the womb to the tomb. I believe that socialized medicine is just another marker on the road to oblivion. :upsidedown::upsidedown:

 

The healthcare bill was not about health, it was about gaining power.

Remember that.

 

Idk. i have mixed feelings about this. I don't think we should get illegals treatment no matter if it will save their lives or not. Sorry to be harsh. But, I think the biggest problem is that we need to work on the PRICES of our medical. But if we did get rid of the illegal problem wouldn't that help with the cost? At least some.

One of the reasons I think obamacare is such a mistake. From my understanding they want everyone to have health care but the prices are insane. So what.. you are gunna have people that have insurance but cannot afford to go???

 

If medicine is socialized, then it will not advance at all.

There will never be a cure for cancer, AIDS, heart disease, etc.

IF medicine WAS socialized we would still be using candles to cure lung ailments and prescribing cigars for bronchitis like they did 100 years ago.

Anyone who's ever been to a military or VA hospital understands the frustration experienced from a 'socialized' medical system. The care, facilities, and staff are ALL SUBSTANDARD!! No one in those places cares, because they will have a job no matter if the patient lives or dies. They will still get government funding to stay open no matter how many complaints they receive.

And here is the MOST IMPORTANT REASON to NOT SOCIALIZE MEDICINE...

If I smoke my entire life and develop lung cancer, why should YOU have to pay to ensure that I get adequate care?

If I were a girl and got pregnant, why should YOU have to pay the $10-30k to ensure I get proper pre and post-natal care plus delivery?

If I were an alcoholic and I destroy my liver, why should YOU have to pay the $100k so I could get a liver transplant?

The fact is, most of our ailments which are non-emergency in nature are cause by our own behaviors. Second to our genes, our lifestyles are the next largest contributing factor for wether or not I develop a PREVENTABLE disease.

I feel bad if you cannot afford the insurance to get a heart transplant, I really truly do. So THINK about this before you stuff your hole with McDonalds and smoke that pack of Marlboro's or down that fifth of Jack...

 

I feel bad if you cannot afford the insurance to get a heart transplant, I really truly do. So THINK about this before you stuff your hole with McDonalds and smoke that pack of Marlboro's or down that fifth of Jack...

For those thinking heart disease is a straightforward thing, something you always cause.. good link here:

http://health.usnews.com/health-conditions/heart-health/cardiomyopathy

 

Understand how free markets work in medicine.

In free-market:

Lets say you open a hospital - What now. Pay your expenses! Building needs to be paid. Utilities need to be paid. Debt needs to be paid. Expensive equipment needs to be paid. Then you have staff. Skilled staff. Secretaries need to be paid. Nurses need to be paid. Janitors need to be paid. Doctors, surgeons need to be paid.

Now suppose in the case of neurosurgery. You have all expenses that need to be paid. Neurosurgeon has to be paid, for 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school and 8+ years of speciailized training. He is very skilled, has lots of bills that need to be paid, his skill is in high demand.

Ok. Lets say total expenses to break even for hospital is $100. Now you want to make profit as well, for future investment in things like equipment, for your own expenses. You want 10% profit for your valuable medical service, charge $110 per operation.


Suppose there is one patient, no insurance. He has to pay the $110. However, lets say there are 2 patients that need operation and can afford it! Well, now you can charge less to cover expenses. $55 each! Or maybe $60 dollars each - both patient and hospital win. Costs come down with economies of scale. Lets say there is 110 patients! Well, hospital can charge $1 an operation! Maybe $2 or 3 to make profit. What if you only afford 50 cents operation? Charity may help, good will of doctor may help.

That is assuming there is only 1 hospital. In free market, there are many hospitals, competing for the patients business. Perhaps they only want 5% profit instead of your 10%. Well, first patient may only be charged $105 for the operation at their hospital. To compete, you must lower your cost to get patients business.

This is how free markets work. Win-win.



Government medicine means, government takes everyones money. Now they have big pool of cash. How do they allocated it? They say to hospital - we are in charge. You have to see 2 patients a day, and we will only reimburse you $40 per operation. After that, you will not get paid.

Now, wait a minute, that is not enough to cover even your expenses. Hospital loses money. They have to cut costs, fire people. Doctors say, well, I am only getting paid for 2 operations. Thats all I will see today, because hospital will not pay for the use of additional equipment and resources after 2 operations. Then they close shop. Why would they do it for free? There is nothing to compensate them for their time, their expenses, they might as well go home and spend time with family.

What is end result? Yes you may get seen. But long lines result. You have to wait a year or 2 to see a specialist, to see that tumor. Through taxation, people were forced to subsidize the surgery you could not pay for yourself. People like me, young people interested in medicine but also interested in making a good living are discouraged from going into medicine. Doctors get paid less, they are limited to how many patients they can see and get compensated for. Hospitals lose money. Healthcare is rationed, you wait in line, even if you have the money to afford an operation. So for the unlucky athelete college student who takes care of his body and somehow gets lung cancer and can afford to pay, too bad. He has to wait behind Person #87 in line who smoked for 30 years and did not take care of himself. This is the end result of socialized medicine, and the reason why people from all over the world come to the US to escape it.

It is lose-lose.

The closest we can come to a fair system is free market capitalism in medicine. Charities, individual goodwill towards others and insurance can help a great majority of those in need. But it needs to be free and voluntary. The moment it is forced is when tyranny results.

There is no reasonable argument for socialized medicine. It doesn't work, period. Those that support it and ignore the facts fall back on name-calling, one-line insults and outright lies as tactics - it is obvious just by searching through this single thread! Notice how there is no civilized discussion, they behave as children. Forget them. Take the information that was offered and make your own conclusions.

The only way to hedge against this catastrophe is to arm yourself with intellectual ammunition, and spread this message to those who have not been corrupted by the empty promises of socialism.

 

You are missing SOOOO MUCH information. This sounds like an example a second grader would be taught. Before you become so entrenched in a point of view you should actually look objectively and do research. The hardest pill to swallow (no pun intended) for most people is when they realize that the market isn't actually a free market. Ins. companies can charge whatever the heck they feel like. Doctors get paid to write x amount of a certain perscription. Also, look at the cost of syringes, gauze, bandages, etc. They are sky high in a hospital. Ins. companies look for anyway possible to get out of payment, and many people are denied based on sub-standard reasoning. Healthcare isn't teh exception, sadly, its the norm. If our country was operated under free market principles, we wouldn't bail out banks, Ford, or Wall Street nor would our interest rates wouldn't be artificially low just to name a few examples.

In America, our hospitals are filled with the new state of the art machines that cost a ton of money, yet there are in effect no better or more accurate than the machine created just a couple of years prior. But the hospitals feel that patients (the customers) won't feel as secure with 'older' machines. These 'older' machines are used in the rest of the world and work just fine. Also, because they are not updated so often the cost to use their technology is Significantly cheaper. Just look at the cost of an MRI stateside vs. in Japan or Cuba.

PS Tyrenz: There is no money in cures. There is also an old addage in the drug companies that is quite twisted. "Biggest mistake is to kill the patient. Second biggest mistake is to cure the paitent. Neither one of these makes a lot of money." Secondly, what if you had a child with a congenital problem and he/she required an organ transplant to save his/her life but your ins. wouldn't cover it and you didn't have 150k just lying around?

Maat: What the h&ll makes the life of a 17 year old more precious than a 19 year old???

I Don't Like Obamacare, and I'm not a Socialist, but there are much better ways to secure a quality standard of healthcare in this system.

 

Most goverments have choosed a universal health care insurance runned by the goverment cause by numbers the price goes down. So its the most price effective way.

But shall goverment also run the hospitals and such is a different question and the most price effective way is probably the market. Many western countries and now switching to that. Goverment runs the insurance and private sector the hospitals, doctors...

But this example is based on the idea that all people in the society have a right to needed health care within a certain cost. Not all people or societies share or can afford that idea.