sc281, I'm going to say that I agree with you and that the best approach is a balanced approach. Those currently living in countries with enough stability to afford them reserve currency status probably aren't the ones that have to worry about their cash being useless for trade in the very near future.

Some of us in the hurricane zones make it a point to keep cash on hand to help alleviate the stresses of the rare cases where we lose power for 5-10 days. If cellphones are out and power is down for a few days, I prefer to know that we'll still be able to buy stuff if we need it. I don't expect to be able to pull up to the local gas station and trade an ASE for 8 gallons of gas but we have them too just in case.

As is often said, cash is king.

 

These are somewhat tired / old arguments, but I think gold / silver will be worthless anyway. No one - or at least few - will have the skills to assess quality. Or weights. Or split up bars or coins into smaller denominations. As a practical matter, precious metals won't - I don't believe - be useful in a tough situation.

 

Read your post and ask yourself, does that really sound logical?

I'm about to go to the bank and pull out 5k to pay back my mom. I'm gonna be automatically arrested under drug trafficking chargers?!?! REALLY!?

No, what will happen is that you will raise flags. Your account activity will be looked at closer and if they see suspicious comings and goings of large quantaties of cash you will be questioned on it and asked to provide proof of legitimate income/reason for such cash traffic.

Which IMO is total Bull**** as well but its a far cry from being charged with drug trafficking simply because you decide to pull out a large amount of $$.

This place sometime.....

 

Right now if you are stopped by the police with a large sum of money in your car the police confiscated it. It is up to you to prove to them it is not drug money. Most of the time you will never see your money again because it is a bonus to their coffers.

If you are afraid of this just carry copies of a few cash withdrawals from your bank in your car, or a couple of bank statements.

 

As I was buying some silver today, I started really thinking about money's use in shtf...

Now, before I continue, I put away silver and other things for barter currently, but am starting to reconsider the idea of cash.

Especially in a shtf like an emp/cme or other grid down situation cash could and probably will have some serious utility.

Let me explain.


http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12773.htm



So in a $15+ trillion economy only about 9% of the money is hard cash. Most of that being held in banks, vaults, etc and not in public hands.

If the lights go out, cash is suddenly a finite resource. Back in the depression when the money supply shrank by ridiculous amounts you had massive deflation. In that Era cash was king. It was a universally recognized means of exchange, and unlike Weimar, there wasn't enough to go around, much less cart around in a wheelbarrow.

Why does gold and silver have a monetary value? Because it is scarce. Greenbacks will be similarly so, assuming the hard currency money supply hasn't been inflated to a ridiculous extent before it hits the fan.


I'll still prep for barter and silver/gold, but as someone who works in a bank and sees first hand how little cash is actually in them, and how little cash people keep in hand it makes me ponder the possibility that it might not end up being the toilet paper of the shtf world afterall.

Please comment. These are rough thoughts and i'd like your input. Thank you.

Cash will be good for short term SHTF scenarios and even in the beginning of a LONG term one, but as it drags on and the economy collapses it will be worthless at the very best it may retain 25% of its value before it completely dies, but that's HIGHLY doubtful.

However in about 100 yrs after the collapse a $100 bill will be a collectors item, kinda like confederate money is now days (just not as collectable) :thumb:


An emp would collapse the economy with a LOT of rich ppl suddenly becoming poor because the banks wouldn't open and if they did with no electricity they wouldn't know how much cash anyone had so they wouldn't open

also don't forget that not to long ago most banks put a $5k daily limit on how much could be withdrawn/spent.

The "GREAT DEPRESSION" was a different type of collapse than what an EMP would bring.

If it is possible its a good idea to keep 6 months worth of cash to cover ALL expenses that you normally have to pay.

 

I've told how a SOTG sniper once said to me that the best bug out kit was a pistol,
$5k incash and a bottle of water.

I am certain it is absolutely possible for "something to happen" to make cash worthless. (economy, etc)

I'm also certain that those of us who "are aware" will have time to "get out of cash"
(even if I have to drive to Home Depo and spend it all on tools and building supplies)

And I've told the story how while crossing New York on the NY threw way all the (connected) card readers went out. I was towing my Airstream and it took me almost $500 to get out of the state! (to where osceola use a card agan)
If I couldn't of, I'd of been STRANDED like many people were. Couldn't buy gas and couldn't even buy a sandwich.....

I've made some AWESOME deals off poeple who needed $X while the banks were closed.

CASH IS A PREP!

Likewise I also keep gold and silver....
Each in its place.

 

I've told how a SOTG sniper once said to me that the best bug out kit was a pistol,
$5k incash and a bottle of water.

I am certain it is absolutely possible for "something to happen" to make cash worthless. (economy, etc)

I'm also certain that those of us who "are aware" will have time to "get out of cash"
(even if I have to drive to Home Depo and spend it all on tools and building supplies)

+1

After the first few days/a week of a long term SHTF scenario, inflation, or even hyperinflation, of useful goods (and even some luxury items) is the other factor to consider. A 20 round box of 5.56 ammo or a can of Yoder's bacon (depending on the scenario, one might be better than the other) is bound to be a much better investment than holding cash--or even gold or silver--when those items might cost you a few hundred in cash.

 

I agree it is important to maintain cash. For reasons stated previously PM's will be very difficult to use as forms of payment for goods or services. General ignorance of the citizenry would be my umbrella reason. However, there will need to be some form of currency and folks usually fall back on what they know and are comfortable with during stress and that is the almighty dollar in the form of paper money. As a general rule, as the good folks in here have taught me, its best to have a healthy mix of resources.

Its just that simple.

PS I got flagged for a $2500 withdraw from my savings I used to purchase a dirtbike for the kids.

 

I would change banks for that

 

If you travel on land through Africa, above South Africa, (where most transactions are card or EFT based) you will only rarely find a petrol station that takes a card and virtually no local store will take a card. Everything is done in cash transactions. Even foreign exchange is done the good old black market way...on the street. It is hard to find a bank or 4x anywhere except a large city or border and some countries like Tanzania only have one real city. Cash is a must have prep here.

 

Thanks for the info on Africa. Definitely different than here.

 

My 35 year old son is unabashedly anti-cash, he and his wife went with us to the Amish salvage stores and after she filled her cart with all the "good deals" he sheepishly had to borrow cash from me because to the Amish and his Old Man cash will be king until it isn't, then we go to plan B.

 

http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12773.htm
Q: How much U.S. currency is in circulation?

A: There was approximately $1.34 trillion in circulation as of January 7, 2015, of which $1.29 trillion was in Federal Reserve notes.

{DIVIDE by 320 million population (March 2015)
$4,031.25 (dollar bills) per capita}

==\==\==
I may be mistaken, but in the event that everyone tried to “Cash out” their investments, it would be impossible for the majority to recover more than $4000 (in dollar bills).

The irony is that if one was fortunate to gather MORE than $4000 in dollar bills, those notes are still worthless - no par value. (Since 1933, and the “State of Emergency”).
==\==\==

FYI : Fort Knox depository allegedly holds 147.4 million ounces of gold bullion. If coined, pursuant to the Coinage Act of 1792, et seq, it would compute to roughly 2.9 billion [gold] dollars. ($9.21 per capita).

. . .
The "S" will "HTF" when a substantial number of folks seek to close out their accounts for cash (notes), and the system collapses.

 

In the midst of a total disaster communications may be very limited or down completely. So even if cash lost all of it's actual value many folks may not know that it had lost value and many would still place a perceived value on it. I think we will still be able to buy some things from some, less informed individuals. Even the ones who know that it has lost a lot of it's value may bank on the idea that it's value would return when things got back to normal.

My plan is to not put all of my eggs in one basket. I plan on having some cash, some silver, some barter items, many tangible, useful, and needful items. Nobody knows for certain what tomorrow will bring.

 

diversity will always be the best plan.

You need cash, PM's, lead, food, medical supplies, etc.

No one is more important that the other. And regardless of how well you plan, there will be something your forgot, something you ran out of, something that went bad, etc.

 

average joe won't know what silver or gold is worth. it's good at holding it's valve nothing more. If you want to park money from inflation gold is a good option. 20 bucks worth of gold in 1950 would buy you x amount of food. That same amount of gold today would buy you the same amount. So really it didn't go up or down it just remained constant. People dump money into gold when other things seem unstable once they figure I can make money they move it into other things again.

Cash is a big advantage as people know what it is. If you plan on leaveing a country and going somewhere else then gold or silver is a better bet as you can carry allot of valve in a small amount of gold and always sell it for some other form of cash. For trading ect it's not worth it. People can't eat or use gold or silver. So if it's really bad they will want things like coffee, booze, smokes, drugs.

 

average joe won't know what silver or gold is worth. it's good at holding it's valve nothing more. If you want to park money from inflation gold is a good option. 20 bucks worth of gold in 1950 would buy you x amount of food. That same amount of gold today would buy you the same amount. So really it didn't go up or down it just remained constant. People dump money into gold when other things seem unstable once they figure I can make money they move it into other things again.

Cash is a big advantage as people know what it is. If you plan on leaveing a country and going somewhere else then gold or silver is a better bet as you can carry allot of valve in a small amount of gold and always sell it for some other form of cash. For trading ect it's not worth it. People can't eat or use gold or silver. So if it's really bad they will want things like coffee, booze, smokes, drugs.

I had a thread on this in the past that cash would still be king if the SHTF. Someone posted a great video on youtube showed some guy with a 1 oz gold coin and was willing to give it to anyone who could tell him the apx value. No one got the coin. Another would not sell him a burger or coffee in exchange for the gold coin...

In general people are stupid, and lack the knowledge to value gold/silver in relation to other things besides cash.

 

I guess for the first part of shtf I will be able to buy silver and gold for a few dimes on the dollar. That being my guess I'm still gonna have as much of both beforehand as I can.

 

 

In my opinion cash will initially be valuable. But the later into the struggle more people will realize it has no value besides burning to keep warm. The real nice cheap investment that will be worth a damn will be stuff like coffee sugar candy tobacco ect ect. The barter system will be where it's at and those with plenty of provisions will be looking for amenities for personal enjoyment. There will be people who monoplolize and they will be interested more in amenities than silver. You can't predict what will become currency but when it boils down to it you can't eat silver and gold won't keep you warm. Just a consideration.

 

One interesting thing about this, is nobody has mentioned about the ID strips in the FRN'S that can be read up to 50 feet away by just about any STATE TROOPER, and a lot of Sheriff cars have the device too, it's been available since in the 70's. The LEO's know how much money you have in your car or on your person just by driving up alongside you on the road. If you don't think this is true, just put you a bale of cash in the trunk of your car and come up I 95 out of Florida.
Another thing mentioned on here is about the Probable cause issue, with the dogs and the drugs. The handlers train the dogs to act however the handler wants the appearance. I personally have a video of a LEO putting a bottle of pills in a car where there was none. If you didn't have any drugs, don't mean you won't have any at the search. Another interesting scenario I know of, the drug dog was professionally tested, and found to be totally useless for finding drugs, but he was a good performer.

 

One interesting thing about this, is nobody has mentioned about the ID strips in the FRN'S that can be read up to 50 feet away by just about any STATE TROOPER, and a lot of Sheriff cars have the device too, it's been available since in the 70's.

Would you please post factual links to this information or is this just fantasy or more rumors?

 

It is a fairly common practice to set aside some cash at home, in a secure place, in case of an emergency. How much depends upon everyone's personal set of circumstances and ability to hold cash for a long term. Not going to get into M1 and valuations of the dollar here, but I disagree with Keynesian-based economic theories and prefer the free market economic theories and practices put forth by Friedman et al.

IMHO, it is a good idea to secure enough cash to at least have some "options" in a time of crisis. As far as what will occur should the entire system collapse, then the eventual run on the banks would probably mirror what happened in the 30s. FDIC is only obliged to cover a certain amount of cash. So, the 1%er's would be compromised to a certain degree but the other resources they have should be sufficient to overcome short-term problems. It's the middle class that will take the biggest hit. Most likely, the majority of folks who frequent these forums. But they, being smarter than the average bear, should and by discussing these topics, are, taking the necessary steps to at least mitigate some economic and other damages. Now, what to do for the time periods extending beyond one year is another matter. There may not be sufficient internal reserves to properly survive and then the larger questions is; what to do about the potential anarchy that may ensue... That, too, may be a discussion for another thread.

 

BTW, any amounts less than $9,999 withdrawn from a banking institution will not be disclosed to the IRS by that institution (by Federal law). Whatever else is being said is not factual (at least in CA, NV, AZ & CO as far as I know).

 

As I was buying some silver today, I started really thinking about money's use in shtf...

Now, before I continue, I put away silver and other things for barter currently, but am starting to reconsider the idea of cash.

Especially in a shtf like an emp/cme or other grid down situation cash could and probably will have some serious utility.

Let me explain.


http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12773.htm



So in a $15+ trillion economy only about 9% of the money is hard cash. Most of that being held in banks, vaults, etc and not in public hands.

If the lights go out, cash is suddenly a finite resource. Back in the depression when the money supply shrank by ridiculous amounts you had massive deflation. In that Era cash was king. It was a universally recognized means of exchange, and unlike Weimar, there wasn't enough to go around, much less cart around in a wheelbarrow.

Why does gold and silver have a monetary value? Because it is scarce. Greenbacks will be similarly so, assuming the hard currency money supply hasn't been inflated to a ridiculous extent before it hits the fan.


I'll still prep for barter and silver/gold, but as someone who works in a bank and sees first hand how little cash is actually in them, and how little cash people keep in hand it makes me ponder the possibility that it might not end up being the toilet paper of the shtf world afterall.

Please comment. These are rough thoughts and i'd like your input. Thank you.

If the shtf, what good would gold /silver do for people? Besides sit somewhere like any other object in your house. If it really hit the fan, wouldn't you think food, water, fuel, guns, ammo, etc would be far more valuable? Gold /silver would not help anyone.

 

As I was buying some silver today, I started really thinking about money's use in shtf...

Great thread for many to think about, thanks! :thumb:

Now for my 2 cents worth! :juggle:

As posted earlier, pictures of paper money becoming useless is food for thought, since they didn't have a value when they no longer where backed by a valued commodity (Gold). However like many countries today the value is established by international markets on the economic strength of a particular county via the internet/wire/cable/whatever. Take that away and the paper money will only last for a period of time, since economies are now designed and supported by the internet.
However PM's will still have recognized value world wide, as they always have. But there are really two types of PM's that have always been recognized world wide, precious metals and processed metals. I'll skip the precious metals part since that should be an obvious, but processed metals would stop with any economic collapse. A tangible barter system will have to take hold and besides those items that have been mentioned, one might think of coinage? An example is Mexico... today a 1, 10, etc. Peso note from the 50's is recognized as worthless in day to day exchange but the coinage still carries the same value as the newest coins. Also dependent on what they where made of from copper to silver. A 1, 5, 10, 25, 50 centavo coin can still be accepted in a monetary exchange.
So IMO coinage will be important in any barter system, as it has been for thousands of years, and they are PM's.

Cha-Ching ... end of 2 cents!

 

Great thread for many to think about, thanks! :thumb:

Now for my 2 cents worth! :juggle:

As posted earlier, pictures of paper money becoming useless is food for thought, since they didn't have a value when they no longer where backed by a valued commodity (Gold). However like many countries today the value is established by international markets on the economic strength of a particular county via the internet/wire/cable/whatever. Take that away and the paper money will only last for a period of time, since economies are now designed and supported by the internet.
However PM's will still have recognized value world wide, as they always have. But there are really two types of PM's that have always been recognized world wide, precious metals and processed metals. I'll skip the precious metals part since that should be an obvious, but processed metals would stop with any economic collapse. A tangible barter system will have to take hold and besides those items that have been mentioned, one might think of coinage? An example is Mexico... today a 1, 10, etc. Peso note from the 50's is recognized as worthless in day to day exchange but the coinage still carries the same value as the newest coins. Also dependent on what they where made of from copper to silver. A 1, 5, 10, 25, 50 centavo coin can still be accepted in a monetary exchange.
So IMO coinage will be important in any barter system, as it has been for thousands of years, and they are PM's.

Cha-Ching ... end of 2 cents!

The value is set between the buyer and seller. So long as the medium of exchange for the good is accepted, then the items have value. There is no logical reason that currency such as the greenback could not be used as medium of exchange after the SHTF.

I will even go a step further. If you wipe the US off the map, in your above theory the dollar should be worthless. However, an interesting paradigm shift would happen due to the amount of dollars held globally - making it in no one's best interest to see that value reduced to zero. The shift is the currency is now a stable finite number. Void of all printing press inflation.

Unless someone can present a forumula to value one vs the other, then a greenback has no more or less value than an ounce of gold. Such valuations are set by the 2 people willing to exchange those goods.

 

We know, we know, we know,
That paper money is toilet paper.
However - the average sheep doesn't know that...

They'll probably be happy to continue to trade paper for goods and services for as long as there's paper to go around.

The story about the counterfeiters with $18 bills comes to mind,
getting change for an $18 bill in a small town grocery store the clerk asked if he wanted $3's or $6's...

Something has value as long as people agree that it has value.
When people (sheeple?) turn up their noses at the U.S. Dollar then it will lose value.
But not until then.
:whip:
IMHO & YMMV

 

We know, we know, we know,
That paper money is toilet paper.
However - the average sheep doesn't know that...

They'll probably be happy to continue to trade paper for goods and services for as long as there's paper to go around.

The story about the counterfeiters with $18 bills comes to mind,
getting change for an $18 bill in a small town grocery store the clerk asked if he wanted $3's or $6's...

Something has value as long as people agree that it has value.
When people (sheeple?) turn up their noses at the U.S. Dollar then it will lose value But not until then.
:whip:
IMHO & YMMV

They won't turn away from the greenback untill there is another option.

Also, when the SHTF, people will not be looking for new ideas to cope with the situation. They will turn to what they know. People don't know gold, they don't know silver. They know dollars.

Think of it this way, How many gallons of gas will 2 silver dollars get you? I am asking because how do you know what fair market value is if you can't answer that. If you need to factor silver to current dollar rate/ ounce and then do the same for gasoline, then you don't know how to value silver to gasoline.

BTW PM's can be melted down and mixed with other metals reduce purity. Do you have the tools to know if you are getting 99.999% for your goods? Counterfeit is not new.

For all the things that people see are bad with fiat currency, the same problems exist with PM's.

 

While your points are well taken. You overlook those who are aware of values and take advantage of those who are ignorant.... Bankers and opportunists.

 

Exactly why mid crisis is a horrible time to switch payment paradigms. Very few people in the world are able to accurately spot-price items in mg of gold or silver oz.

 

You can always use it as toilet paper.

 

I remember the gas station owner in Alas,Babylon...sold all his gas,tires and oil and, at the end of the day when he realized the World had ended,he had a box full of money and nothing else....