If you can't hit the little targets at 25M with a 22LR, there is no hope of hitting a target at 400M with a full bore rifle. Since the training is about the fundamentals of shooting and releasing the shot, 25M is perfect. You don't lose half a day in walking down range. The reduced cost of gun and ammo opens makes the training available to more people. The training is not limited to 25M and 22LR rifles. They have some ranges where they do 100M or even all the way out to 400M. Like the Boot Camps. I think they have a requirement that you have qualified Rifleman before moving past 25M.

I have been to two Appleseeds. Missed Rifleman both times by just a few points. Big thing is I have watched my performance improve during the training. I consider myself pretty decent with a rifle. So there must be something to it.

 

just wondering, as i have been challenged to go shoot at one of these shoots.

 

Do it! Well worth the time and money.

 

What sized targets are used? They would have to be very small to be as challenging.

 

The 100 yard target is about 8.5" wide at 25 meters, the 200 yard targets are 4.25" wide, the 300 yard targets are 2.75" wide and the 400 yard targets are 2" wide, I believe. You can see them here.

 

One needs to start somewhere, but there is no substitute for shooting at distance.

 

well, for sure, this isn't a start for me. long time shooter.
the brother , what i consider an occasional shooter , has recently gotten back into shooting after years of being idle. then he gets into the appleseed thing. he does well enough to score rifleman, and now hes blowing smoke at everyone.
gotta love it.
well you know the rest, i get put on the spot, challenged, and of course, now i gotta go shoot.
i woulda much rather shot 308 at 200 yards, but this deal is .22 only.
so now i gotta scope up a 10/22, install sling mounts as ruger 10/22 dont come from the factory with sling studs, and at some point go shoot in this thing.
brother kinda grinds my grits, as he always gets so head strong in what ever he does. hes talking about becoming an insructor for the group now.
for me, honestly, wish there was a way out, as we shoot a lot, and at 25 meters/yards, , factory iron sights, the ruger will slap the heck out of a 2 inch target.
i put a scope on, bushnell banner, 4-16 x40, with the lighted crosshair and elevation grid, red green option, kinda overkill on a 25 meter range, but its what was laying around.
the old 30-06 scope before i went x24.
anyways, i reckon ill go shoot this spring, as at this point, there aint a way out and just saying no, i would never hear the end of it. he is talking about shooting in may or june...
and as a note, just to be on the safe side, I ordered a few of the apple seed targets to take out and work with.
lol.
Lil sister isnt gonna get smoked....

 

It isnt just bench shooting. The first row (large) is standing. The next row is kneeling, the bottom two rows are prone.

There are mag changes and the shots are timed. You also start from standing and go to prone.

------
Ive been spending part of my training time shooting at appleseed targets. I can score rifleman about 50% of the time. Once I get a bit higher precentage Ill take the course

You might be surprised how hard it is to put 10 shots into four 2 inch targets at 25 yards

It also is nice because going to the range has a purpose and scoring allows you to compare sessions and improvement.

 

It's only 62 ft. how hard can that be? I kick butt from a bench.

We have to shoot now? But it's raining. It's cold. I gotta shoot another AQT, are you kidding?

You need a clean/reliable 22, a full box of ammo 500 ct. (that cycles in your rifle), a USGI sling (can buy this from Appleseed site $20 +/- and that includes the swivels), weather appropriate clothing, ears and eyes, bring as many mags as you can 5 at least 10 is better borrow them if needed, MARK YOUR MAGS so you can ID them (there'll be more than 1 rotary mag ruger there).

If you're a new shooter or have never really had anyone teach you the basics this is money well spent.

NPOA, press not pull, finish the shot, transition from standing to seated to prone, dominate eye, What is 5 MOA at 50, scootching your hips around your pivot, use of a sling, shooting at bottom of breath and between heart beats,

At the end of the day and are called up and handed a patch you can be sure you earned it.

The Appleseed site has all the info you'd need to be ready when you show up. Just bring a good attitude.

All the Instructors are unpaid

 

yep, i insisted on may june cause i aint setting ut there in 20 degrees, wind blowin, snow fallin.
ammo, i know cci works well and is accurate in my 10/22, so fresh 500 rounds already bought.
i hunt, so weather appropiate is always, eye and ear, always.
was taught by old timers, natural point of aim, easy squeeze, be suprised by the shot. breathing and relax.
not worried about the aqt. ill pass on the patch, not why im going.
ill go because i was backed into a corner, because it will be day on the range with my brother. Im not there to earn a patch. you can buy them on the internet for a few bucks.
the point of my posts, was the grandiouse attitude im getting and seeing from a few guys that passed the aqt, then boasting the shots are 400 yards, when in reality, its 25 yards and a 2 inch target.
honestly, we cut our own holes at 25 yards on a bench at the range, and rapid fire open sights and slap the heck out of steep flip downs at the same distance. its 25 yards. not 400.
it .22, not .308. my pont, there is a huge difference.
i reckon time will tell. Ill go get my scope on target this afternoon, make sure its a money maker fit. then ill let the time pass to shoot day.
for me, its just that one up thing that really gets me. If this is about personal acheivment, why do the guys gotta go boasting and braggin, putting others down? thats akin to fightin words round my way. it gets to that point that its put up or shut up, .... @ where i am at with it.
im not knockin the program, its good there are shooting programs out there, but im thinkin a part of it not taught, is to be humble in your acheivment, encourage others to join in the fun, and not to attempt to boast or put others down.

 

LRNG,

Get your sling and learn how to use it, Practice going from standing to seated to prone with muzzle awareness. They're really big on this, really big.

NPOA - use a tack as your target (scope??). Set up, take a breath, close your eyes and release your breath to your natural pause, open your eyes are you on target? If not adjust your POA by moving your body around your pivot (standing would be your front foot, seated would be the cheek your sitting on, prone would be your elbow). DON'T cheat by using your muscles. Do it properly by scootching your butt left/right, forward/bacwards, up/down.

Then on that Saturday you'll be light years ahead of the curve and you can beat em' like rented mules. Nothing like putting a loudmouth in their place.

 

will do. practice practice....

 

If the class is going to be so easy for you why not take it with irons only? Hitting a 25 yard target with a 4 or more magnification optic isn't particularly difficult.

 

Wow, RNG, you have an awesome advantage, I mean knowing how to shoot and all. Could you do us a favor and post pics of your targets so we can all enjoy this?
Your Brother is rightly proud of his accomplishment, and you can't buy that patch on the internet until you have the date, location and instructors name that qualified you. Trust me its not as easy as it looks.
And BTW, I don't know about your range but up here we shoot it with centerfires, and after you qual on the 25 you move out to 100, 200 and 300 yards. which is the limit of our range. There are no benches.

I know you will beat the course on your first AQT but let us know how this works out. When you do score a Rifleman score, you will be proud of it because you will have earned it.:thumb:

Eagle223usa
Rifleman 10/11/2014.

Oh, I used an AR 15.

 

Jdr99a,

The thing about an Appleseed AQT is it's 40 rounds, timed, using 3 positions standing seated and prone. Personally I don't see any issue with a scope.

E223USA,

I think the whole point of her thread is someone that had passed was a bit too aggressive in their crowing. Know what I mean?

LRNG,

Do it, pass it, smile at him and say nothing. It'll kill him.


The benefits from attending an Appleseed are many. Do you honestly know what an MOA is? Can you explain it to someone else? Do you own a sling? How much shooting other than from a bench do you do? It is a great program run by unpaid volunteers.

 

Actually its for ANY caliber but its best (cheapest ) to use a 22lr but what ever caliber you use it MUST have a magazine, because they do mag drills, and your weapon must have a sling so they can show you how to use a sling.

What they are teaching is basic marksmanship not advanced sniper training. LoL some ppl

I was an expert marksmen in the army and after taking the appleseed course it cut my shot grp in 1/2 :thumb:

 

My questions, more of an opinion survey, beings they use the army qualifacation test method, but at 25 meters, how much credability would you put in the shooters scoring?

opinions?

As soon as you start slinging up, you start losing touch with combat shooting.

It's a kind of culty organization that teaches fundamentals and thinks it teaches more than that. Fundamentals are important, so if you don't have those already it may be worth going, but I wouldn't walk away from one thinking you know how to fight with a long gun. It might be a valuable stepping stone to get you to where you have enough basic skills for someone else to teach you the fighting part, if you don't have existing proficiency with rifles.

 

Culty? If so the cult is the cult of American marksmanship, a concept that is almost totally lost on todays CQB Ninja classes. I think that is why these classes are so popular. 2 to 3 fast shots at 7 to 10 yards and your a trained killer. Well not so much, maybe.

I am amazed and so is my 14 year old son when we have watched all these steely eyed dealers of death that can't keep 5 rounds on a pie plate at 100 yards from a bench with a modern deer rifle and a scope! They get 3 on and that's good enough for them deers. We don't go to public ranges anymore.

And don't take my word for it, watch a few of these "Alaska" or mountain man reality shows! Oh my goodness! Besides the Hailstone guys wife, and that young kid (Eric?) with the AR, most of them are classic American marksmen, by todays new low standards Embarrassing!

It comes down to you don't know what you don't know. You must know the basics before you can shoot well at distance. Anyone can spray a room with an M4.

Oh, and after watching these experts contaminate the area with them there deer rifles and AR's I usually let my son sling up my 77/22 and shoot some 10 shot 100 yard groups that he can cover with a half dollar from prone! Yup, Appleseed trained.

The Appleseed course is some of the best instruction you can get these days.

Horse soldier, did you get your patch?

 

HorseSoldier,

You get a prize. It's absolutely all about the basics. As far as "Culty" I was never taught any secret handshakes.

 

I agree with Eagle 223. I used t teach marksmanship, trained certified instructor, and Army expert. When I go to the public range, I am amazed at how poorly many people shoot. They don't know the basics at all. Looks like they got their instructions if any off some ninja tactical guy on the net. I have not taken Appleseed myself but I would like to. I think it is a great program. No it is not real Long distance shooting. But it is a good start.

 

"Use the Force Luke"
"Be the bullet"
Have fun.
I often shoot by my self , I am my own best competitor, and that'a the only person I worry about impressing.

 

D2,
I am also a firearms instructor (LE) and prior military.

The course is a great intermediate range course. 25 to 500 yards.

LilRedNeck Girl, The course is challenging and definitely worth your time if you want to improve your skills. The only purpose of shooting is to hit things. All the "Advanced Ninja Swat stuff" is the basics done flawlessly.

And as far as fighting with a long gun, the person with the first hit usually wins. Not always but that is the way the smart money bets.

And before this gets into a peeing contest, If your going to criticize the Program and tell everyone on the web how simple it is, lets see your proof that you passed it.

 

Dang,
Holier than thou Huh. Not really.

Let me break this to you all, MOST LE can't shoot for beans. Very few are interested in it. Oh, and HS, I am a patrol rifle instructor, have been for over 15 years, (State Police and NRA certfied) also pistol, shotgun and revolver. Colt, Glock and Rem armorer, taught Taser, integrated weapons, use of force, def tactics, yeah all that stuff. Heck, I've even worked in the movies to teach the actors how to handle firearms to appear to be proficient with them, I am paid to! I hold several medals from the LE Olympics, a gold one that I cherish when me and my team beat the FBI team across the course by 40 points. (High power rifle) I took First Gold and Team Gold. That took 4 years of training to go from Silver to Gold. Those old boys can shoot.

I work for a large eastern US City dept. that has had more than its share of shootings. I've lost partners to gunfire. And still no one is interested. They get real interested afterwards, when CU is there numbering the casings. The hit ratio of my professionally trained but uninterested gun handlers is about 17 to 20 percent. And I can tell you why.

Its that attitude you carry around with you, Post Graduate level, yeah right. I work with and train, about 900 guys, a lot of them just like you. "I already know it all, when do we break for lunch and when can we leave...I want to get outa here a little early if possible". HS, I don't know you, But I know who you are.

Let me break this to most of the folks here. LE training, is like common core, everybody that shows up gets a trophy. (Well dang instructor, if they don't go home with a cert, they don't get paid for the days.) Very few strive for excellence. The failures? Well they get 3 chances, ammo is unlimited, if you forget to change the target once or twice, there will be enough holes to sign off on. If you fail that person, they will be suspended! Then the union will get involved! You don't want that, Do you Brother?

I knew you didn't have the patch. CQB is kindergarten easy. I teach it, I know.

As I was leaving my first Appleseed, I was ****ed. 2 days of shooting, NM grade AR 15, hand loaded ammo, oh yeah I was cheating to the max! I came close, but didn't make the grade. I put my dirty rifle and empty brass in my truck and was driving home, my phone rang, it was the wife. She asked if I qualified and I had to tell her I did not. She was like "I don't know you anymore" and hung up. I picked up the pace in the old Chevy as I figured she was gonna throw out all my trophies and medals from my private office. I was heartbroken, I had failed. I let down my family. My wife had married a winner, you know.

But as I was heading home I got a warm feeling inside, I had failed. It felt different. I had actually been challenged for once! Me, Mr. high speed, low drag dealer of death at distance Foiled! Dang! It actually felt good, I had something to work on. I went back and relearned the basics. Any one can do the CQB ninja stuff, and I don't hold it in contempt, it just isn't that hard. My 14 year old can do it after a couple of Red Bulls.

I practiced what I was taught, and cleaned it with a 240 out of 250 at my next Appleseed and was proud to do it. I am almost 50 so this time I used a scope!

I have been a PAID professional gun carrier for over 25 years not counting the Military, instructor for over 15. LE teaches to the lowest common denominator. They have too. And HS, I knew you didn't take the course, its hard, and we wouldn't want to bruise that image you have of your self. Try it, you will learn something. I have wasted too much time with this already.

 

Just remember, If someone is telling you its easy, ask them if they passed it. "Why would I bother" Tells all.
Oh, and its just pre WW2 marksmanship, what every American boy and girl should know. Only hits count. This problem, this attitude, is prevalent in todays society, closed minds learn nothing. I would not want that attitude on my team if the situation was real. Learn all you can, it is a benefit and strive for excellence when you do it.

 

This is getting kinda nuts, LRNG it's all your fault.

Appleseed is a class that teaches the basics and just like in anything else you have to learn the basics. It's just more betterer to learn them early.

Many who have shot for a while don't think they need to learn the basics or aren't able to deal with the fact they may not pass. A lot of these folks don't have any desire to attend.

Again it's for beginners no matter the age or length of gun ownership.

This is all your fault, LRNG

I don't know the secret handshake.

mj52

 

If you can’t shoot expert on the Appleseeds AQT at 25M you won’t be able to do it full distance. Folks will poo poo it but few of them are willing to shoot an AQT and post the results.

Random thoughts on Appleseeds

.... Good training for the money.

.... It’s a little long on ‘schtick’, guys that either have seen too many movies about boot camp or enjoyed it too much – lots of standing at parade rest while addressing the class

.... The whole ‘handle’ / nom-de-appleseeds thing in place of a name is kinda odd.

 

If you can’t shoot expert on the Appleseeds AQT at 25M you won’t be able to do it full distance. Folks will poo poo it but few of them are willing to shoot an AQT and post the results.

Random thoughts on Appleseeds

.... Good training for the money.

.... It’s a little long on ‘schtick’, guys that either have seen too many movies about boot camp or enjoyed it too much – lots of standing at parade rest while addressing the class

.... The whole ‘handle’ / nom-de-appleseeds thing in place of a name is kinda odd.

This is what keeps me away from such organized events anymore.

I attended one once, left shortly afterwards, too much flung out chests and BDU's for me.

I stopped shooting USPSA for the same reason, too many people in their own little worlds trying to be something they are not in front of others.

 

Its a great event. Taught a lot of good things. Way more practical for average shooter then theorycrafting on forums. The military experience we get it.

 

IMHO, everyone should take a rifle marksmanship course. Fewer and fewer people actually know basic shooting positions, basic knowledge of our founding and decent shooting technique. Perhaps if you are a trained marksman you do not need this course. But it sure would not hurt. I have not taken it so I cannot comment on it's military value. But I do not think that is the point. Now CQT is part of military reality. This course does not cover that.
But as a combat veteran the more training the better, the better shot you are, the better.
As a hunter or target shooter training is bound to help. At my age and experience level and physical limitations I may not take it myself but I would like to.

 

I know a lot of folks who have gone to Appleseed events. Everyone of them loved it

 

Well, I don't know about LRNG, but I think I'm going to look for one in my area. Sounds like fun!