I agree with a certain amount of distance, but not having NO trees wouldn't be my total thought. You can provide great camo with the trees (from roads) as well as create deadfalls and trip wires. Also, more deer, squirel, rabbits etc will be more likely to be in a wooded area. Any planes or heli's will be able to spot you better if you don't have tree cover. Also firewood for fuel as well as making tools and furniture wouldn't be possible with trees. Ever watch rambo where he setup a lot of booby traps with stakes and limbs from trees?

 

Trees and other natural barriers properly situated. You probably want some shade as well as natural cover and concealment at your location. Some open ground that any hostiles would hve to cross. Beyond that is where the trees and other barriers come into play. If you are really worried about an attack it's best if you can control/anticipate where it will come from. Also you need to leave yourself an out or you're just as vulnerable as your hostiles.

 

All the above are correct, I don't feel the need to repeat what they said about trees. However, I would like to add something.

When I think of trees and trying to cover up myself and whatever else I want to camo/conceal, I'm also thinking that the person who is intruding/trespassing/what-have-you can also use the trees for just that: for their camo and stealth.

Just some insight.

 

Keep in mind trees also help in various disaster scenarios such as wind storms and such. I've read mixed reports on their providing a thermal break for things like the blast and heat wave of a distant nuke too, but I don't know if I'd count on that.

 

Unless you have a lot of people who can stand guard for 24/7, your place almost certainly isn't defensible.

100 yards, eh? I reload ammunition, reload for my M4s (.223). I can produce ammo that gives me 1 MOA accuracy--that's 1" at 100 yards.

My normal plinking ammo gives me about 2 MOA.

This means that, at 100 yards and behind cover, I can pick off you, your sentries, or anyone else I want. I'm in cover, so you won't know where the shot came from. Further, I'll have a few others around your house as well.

Going to fight from firing slits? Good luck. A 2" firing slit from which a gun is protruding is easy to hit. And guess where the person with the gun is? Right behind it.

If--and I am no raider so this is hypothetical--I were to attack a home (like mine!), I'd be able to easily pin down the defenders while we approached. Then, Molotov cocktails would be used to burn people out, or threaten to do so.

I'd steer away from the idea that you're going to be able to hold people at bay. IMO, without a lot of people, forward LP/OP's, and other early warning, holing up in your home is just death trap.

 

Right on. Worrying about the trees is like not seeing the forest for the trees.

Az

 

A back door tunnel is a must.

Recon3

 

having clear and interlocking fields of vision/fire are a must.

Cover like tracers works both ways.

But remember also, if you build it so they cannot get in you cannot get out.

 

Clear trees to a point that you have a last ditch effort kill zone, maybe 20 - 25 yards depending on terrain. Do not remove all of the trees from within your perimeter, trees provide more of a defensive posture for you than they do for them. The ability to boobie-trap and set alert devices within trees significantly outweighs the attackers ability to use them as cover. if you have the time and the manpower you can develop a substantial array of boobie-traps, dead falls, obstacles that force personnel into a kill zone, etc. If you had explosives, or even det cord with time fuse and fuse ignitors (unlikely) you could do some significant damage to an aggressor. Think about how productive the Vietnamese were in causing casualties with some of their jungle tactics. A roll of barbed wire goes a long way in creating obstacles such as tangle foot. It, along with 550 cord, can be used to create a number of obstacles among trees. If can get to a higher point in the trees, or develop the skill of rigging, you can creat all types of obstacles and traps, the list is endless.


Further, as someone else suggested, clearing trees off of your property also clears away natural resources needed to sustain.

 

Is your house bullet-proof? Most centerfire rounds will zip right thru a wooden house-and everything inside the house is vulnerable.

Generators? Wont you run out of fuel eventually? Why not gradually go solar, and use the gennies for backup?

OBTW, you can hear a generator running for miles....

 

I flip flop a bit on the whole tree thing for the typical house defense discussion. I see your point. But consider the range of the weapons we are taking about.

Clear out to 100 yards? If the attacker is armed with shotguns or older deer rifles that might matter. As they would probably have to move closer (through the open) to get into effective range. Back in the seventies, that might have been a reasonable assumption. But modern weapons are effective well outside 100 yards, especially the AR15. And unlike the seventies, it is reasonable now to consider that an attacker could be armed with a modern combat style weapon. Especially after the number of black rifles sold in the last few years.

So if your not clearing outside of say 300 yards, you probably aren't getting the effect you are after.

Still, you never know, might be all they have is shotguns. Could happen.

As far as clearing goes. I'd focus on keeping people outside of 'throwing range' as a form of protection from someone trying to burn your place down. At least make them close across open space before they can throw that molotov cocktail.

I'd also suggest that people have an exaggerated opinion of what constitutes cover. It has been mentioned that your typical round will go right through most buildings. You might want to consider that the same is true of most trees. Take a look at the size of trees around you, the types, and then test it out sometime. I think you will find it educational.

YMMV,
Chad

 

Dont think it makes that much difference ... you have enough people to post guards on 24hr a day ?

do you have a bunker ? ... cause rounds would go straight through log cabins or such ... people hiding in the tree line makes it harder to seem them

i would look to have less of a distance ... remember if your were overrun but superior numbers then you would have to cross the distance and would be in the open for the retreat ...

 

Concealment is more dangerous than cover imo. If someone is attacking and they only have lonely trees to hide behind they have to come out at some point to move forward or to shoot (if only a little). However low hanging branches, bushes and brush provide concealment for people to get closer and to shoot from. These are the items that need to be removed.

 

I know this reply won't score me any points with the armchair commandos, but it needs to be said.
Alot of discussion goes on here about defendable positions and what to do in a firefight. The one thing that is often left out is this. Short of having a very well trained and equiped Infintary Squad, how many actual firefights do you REALLY expect to survive without someone in your family/group being shot at the very least and most likely killed? Any bullet wound is very serious even under normal circumstances. What are your plans when someone in your group is shot? Do you have a Doctor/Surgeon or at the very minimum a Combat Trained Medic to take care of the wounded? How many here have ever seen an actual bullet wound? I am sure there are a few with Military / Law Enforcement experience who have, but I will wager that the VAST MAJORITY have not.
Look at the mortality rate for soldiers in actual combat. That is with all the air support, armored vehicles, crew served weapons and medical support. When a Soldier is wounded in combat, he is evacuated to a hospital in very short order. When someone in your group is wounded, what will you do?

In light of this IMHO I think that when the time comes that looting is on a large enough scale that these type of events are taking place, it is best to relocate to a rural enough area, that the looters will not fell that it is worth wasting what little fuel they have on the off chance that first you might bee somewhere, and second that you may have something valuable enough that it is worth their fuel.

The only way this type of situation would be survivable, would be for communities to band together and defend a small town as a group, or the situation that I layed out above. To relocate to a remote enough area that you drop off the radar to those looking to loot.

 

Don't let it bother you. You are looking at a specific discussion on a specific topic. That doesn't mean that people don't share your views. Just that those aren't really applicable here.

Certainly, a trained and capable team of appropriate size properly provisioned is key to defending any retreat. But the guy is asking about fields of fire.

YMMV,
Chad

 

We're building our house ourselves using non-invasive techniques specifically so we don't have to tear up all the trees around us. Trees give us shade in the summer, stop the winter hurricane-force winds out of the north, and provide a wonderful habitat for animals wild and domestic. They give us fruit, firewood, picnic areas, syrup, and pollen for our bees. We will keep the woods we have now. I can't see tearing it all down on the off chance that sometime in the future we might have people shooting at us from the woods. I mean... really? We don't live in a teotwawki time right now, and I'm not going to let paranoia force me to go all Easter Island on my little plot of paradise. Ridiculous.

 

Deterrence always pops into my mind as the most valuable aspect of defense. You want them to simply not decide in the first place to make your house a target.

 

Would have to disagree about a "no tree policy".....I kinda remember something called the Alamo....

 

Good thread and question. I'm keeping my trees as they are mostly fruit trees. Additionally, unless you're gumby, they're not thick enough to hide behind, which means that larger caliber ammo will go through the tree.

I agree that good lines of sight are a must, but if things got really bad, I'm going to need the fruit for food.

 

If no trees gives you a great line of fire it affords the same to your attacker.
It also gives you no covered/concealed egress should you need it.

There are many methods to use cover to your attackers detriment, like command detonated IEDs, deadfall traps, and such.
Clearing selected trees so you have fields of fire, and limit cover available would be more effective.

 

There have been a bunch of good points. Just to clear up though ...

My main thought path was look at fort knox. Think about how war were fought like the American revolution and the civil war as well. Open field firing allows you to easily attack a position ... why? they don't have cover. If your tree line is 100 yards you will have to try harder to reach out and get me while I am in my house. I understand about traps and snares and all that also. I just truly believe a home surrounded by trees causes too many issues ie storm damage or enemy cover. I believe if your position was slightly elevated (drainage would be better anyways lol) and you have open area you would make the enemy work so much harder to get to you. When we invaded Normandy on the beaches we got slaughtered because we were in the open and at the foot of the hillsides of the beach. We took the hills and bunkers but a heavy toll and because we had paratroopers behind the beachhead. Anyways I realize a house in the open seems to stick out like a sore thumb but it still seems easier to defend and I might be in the thought process that most people might be carrying a rifle but probably not scoped could be but how much ammo would most "raiders" or bad guys carry? I realize an assault rifle would be a bit different because you would have magazines to swap out. I know shotguns can reach out to 100 yards. Pistols can as well but I would be less worried about the pistols and shotguns at something around 100 yards. I do understand improvised explosives would be harder to use if you were more tucked into the woods though. Your shot path as well as your light of sight is dropped in the woods so it would seem that being behind the cover of a house and both of you have an AR - i would rather be in the house. I think there is good and bad for both ... where would you draw the line? Without extravagant stuff obviously ... no grenades - seriously i doubt they would be over flowing from the shelves when SHTF. You can still sabotage your woods even if they are 100 yards away from your home. I keep thinking also that lighting will be poor and you can only go so far as you can see (mostly) and in the woods you can at least cut that in half. You might walk 5 feet off your porch and into an ambush in the woods. I could understand putting barricades with barbed wire up ... if a vehicle comes up they would have to risk driving through it or around it and you are at least slowing them down but you will be able to see them the whole time.

What am I missing here ... I know I am not thinking of everything and I am trying to expand my mind for property security.

Thanks

 

There have been a bunch of good points. Just to clear up though ...

My main thought path was look at fort knox. Think about how war were fought like the American revolution and the civil war as well.

Open field firing allows you to easily attack a position ... why? they don't have cover. If your tree line is 100 yards you will have to try harder to reach out and get me while I am in my house. I understand about traps and snares and all that also. I just truly believe a home surrounded by trees causes too many issues ie storm damage or enemy cover.

I believe if your position was slightly elevated (drainage would be better anyways lol) and you have open area you would make the enemy work so much harder to get to you. When we invaded Normandy on the beaches we got slaughtered because we were in the open and at the foot of the hillsides of the beach. We took the hills and bunkers but a heavy toll and because we had paratroopers behind the beachhead.

Anyways I realize a house in the open seems to stick out like a sore thumb but it still seems easier to defend and I might be in the thought process that most people might be carrying a rifle but probably not scoped could be but how much ammo would most "raiders" or bad guys carry? I realize an assault rifle would be a bit different because you would have magazines to swap out. I know shotguns can reach out to 100 yards. Pistols can as well but I would be less worried about the pistols and shotguns at something around 100 yards.

I do understand improvised explosives would be harder to use if you were more tucked into the woods though. Your shot path as well as your light of sight is dropped in the woods so it would seem that being behind the cover of a house and both of you have an AR - i would rather be in the house. I think there is good and bad for both ... where would you draw the line? Without extravagant stuff obviously ... no grenades - seriously i doubt they would be over flowing from the shelves when SHTF. You can still sabotage your woods even if they are 100 yards away from your home.

I keep thinking also that lighting will be poor and you can only go so far as you can see (mostly) and in the woods you can at least cut that in half. You might walk 5 feet off your porch and into an ambush in the woods. I could understand putting barricades with barbed wire up ... if a vehicle comes up they would have to risk driving through it or around it and you are at least slowing them down but you will be able to see them the whole time.

What am I missing here ... I know I am not thinking of everything and I am trying to expand my mind for property security.

Thanks

Revolutionary war: You do know that we didn't really have a foothold int he war until we decided to adopt guerrilla tactics and take the fight to the woods right? The British, who lost the war, believed in standing in fields, in formations and standing there shooting at one another at relatively close range. That should tell you something, the ones in the fields lost. History my friend.

Have allot of 100yd tall trees in your yard? I believe this, yes you clear the immediate trees that could pose a hazard to your BOL out of the area, and maybe plant smaller more manageable shrubs or bushed around your place, and manage their size. If they cannot fall on your BOL keep them to retain your BOLs concealment and for the various other reasons mentioned.

You cant compare a house on a hill to a fortified concrete bunker on a cliff to one another. Apples and oranges. I can reasonably assume your house is not 12 inch thick concrete built on a beach cliff, manned by automatic M60 grade machine gun while knowing your allies are at your back and your enemies at your front. You said it yourself, you can be attacked from the rear.

You live in a wooded area where allot of people hunt? Is it strictly slug gun country? If not are you sure there are not a lot of scoped rifles out there? I know I have six in my arsenal, and that was before I became a self proclaimed survivalist.

Your right, but now your talking about remote detonation (you prepared for that, or know how to rig an IED like that?), unless you are planning on running several lines out to your booby traps, 100yds of wire per.

Look on the flip side of your last comment, if your in a heavily wooded area are you sure someone is even going to be able to find your place in the dark? It's much easier to find a home out in the middle of a 200yds field (100yrd radius X2, because I can see 100yds to your houses right and 100yds to the left), hell I might even just stumble on your place while aimlessly roaming the woods looking for a stream, hunting game, or searching for a camp site. In the woods its just not as probable to find a concealed retreat.

And here is another one of my personal thoughts I haven't found mentioned yet. Ina remote location in the woods you must have a drive coming up to your property, or at least close. I cant drive right up to mine for the ease of unloading personnel and property in a bug out location. Work smarter not harder. Now, talking about keeping others out. I would rather have others on foot, getting tired, unable to haul a mass amount of gear and ammo to my doorstep. So part of my deterrent plan is to down a few large trees on the road coming up to my place. But here is the glory in that, I can fall trees on the road all the way up to my doorstep if the situation called for that. And that's as easy and swinging an axe, chainsaw (if time is an issue and I am willing to sacrifice noise discipline) or old fashion double person hand saw. You on the other hand don't have that luxury, you have to go out there in the middle of open ground with no cover and set up some type of barrier for vehicles. You want this because 100yds can be covered fast by most every go cart, let alone a vehicle. That gives you relatively no time to react, get to a window overlooking their approach, get sighted in and start putting well aimed shots on target before they are right at your doorstep breaking in the door. This is far fetched I know, but it could happen, I mean they could have been observing you from the same tree line mentioned below and know your routine. God forbid you leave you LP/OP to take a ****.

Also think about this, if you are just under observation, someone can sit 100yds away in the treeline and see your every uncovered move outside of your BOL. So with that being said gardening your in the open, tending livestock your out in the open, tending to your BOV your out in the open, If your heating with wood then gettign wood your out in the open, you hunt? If so you have to cross 100yds in the open till you even start your hunt, just rubs me the wrong way. or since 100yds is the most common range practiced at for even hunters, your right there at peoples comfort zone.

 

Re-reading a few post and I have to say that with the right command you could probably defend either position as a decent possibility. Still perplexed haha

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say there won't be people shooting at you. This is a survival forum, talking about a SHTF, in regions with lots of guns. In a real world situation- COULD HAPPEN. People Are shooting each other in good times, wake up.

Good thought provoking thread. Im watching you from the trees. Can you see me at night?

 

Maybe you could plant a few widely scattered very slow-growing trees.
It would take them a loooong time to get thick enough to hide behind.
Keep the lower branches trimmed well above ground level.
If they do get more than 5 or 6 inches across, cut them down and plant new thin ones.

 

Can you imagine how hot your house would be in 100 degree weather with no shade and no air conditioning!

 

If a tree is close enough to your home to provide shade, keep it, but he has a valid point. IF you MUST defend your home and not leave it, keeping the perimeter clean will help you, but only if your home itself has cover (sandbags or entrenchments). The point is to not allow anyone to have cover or a place to stabilize a rifle except you. Chances are if someone is stupid enough to make a run for an armed house with no cover for say 100 meters, they probably aren't a good shot. I know if I saw a sandbagged house with a 100 meter kill zone I wouldn't touch it. Way too many easier targets.

 

I understand your concern, however disagree with your train of thought. Its better to be concealed, or have your BOL concealed. Now your worried about being surrounded, well if they don't know your there, then why would they try to surround you?

Another train of thought here, they shouldn't be able to get within sight of your BOL anyways. That's why you post security prior to getting to your AO. That 100yds at night won't be a thing to cover on foot. And as you stated, grids down, how will you see them? You have to get to them prior to.

Plus how will you engage them at night from the second story of your BOL if you cant see them at a distance?

Yes, flat open ground is a deathtrap to a small force without overwhelming manpower. But people are not stupid, they will make distractions to get your attention focused else ware, use night as cover, use vehicles as cover, low crawl through an unkept field with high grass the options are unlimited.

But if they don't know your there, then there is no reason to place an attack/raid on your property.

Just saying.