So, I just took my pack apart. it was pretty wet n the outside. However, for the first time ever, it was also pretty damp inside. The cloths in it were damp, and also a bunch of the gear, including my med kit. The food, hygiene kit and various other things were dry though.

I have had this pack since the early 1990s. It's never given me moisture problems before, despite being in quite a lot of rain in the past. I am thinking maybe it's natural waterproofing has wore off after all these years. I am going to have to see what I can do to restore it again.

Maybe some sort of silicone, like you use for shoes?

 

It may be more hassle then you care to deal with, but you can line your pack inside with a trash bag. I have yet to find a pack that water and damp cant get into.

 

All my camera gear is soaked.

However, my wool blanket, which I protected in a 55 gallon drum liner, was dry as a bone.

 

Long grain rice for the camera gear, silicon spray for the pack...

 

Hah. That's why I carry a BIC and wool! That kind of weather is another day at the office, now, for this seasoned Oregon man! :thumb:

If you can't get a fire going with a bic lighter, tarp to shield yourself from the rain, saw to cut 3-4 inch logs, and a 5 inch fixed blade to baton and make feather sticks (or just shavings if your'e not that good), then you aint gonna get a fire going. And if you can't get a fire going, you better have some wool.

There have been two times in the last five years that I've failed at making a fire, and they were both in %10,000,000 humidity. I swear to god one time in the cascades I was actually IN a cloud, lol.

Sounds like you learned some nice lessons, dood! Good on you for getting out! I bet now you'll have a little chuckle everytime you see someone on a sunny day lighting some cotton balls with a ferro rod, lol.

Here's a trip where I filmed the whole damn process of lighting a fire, in SOAKING wet and rainy conditions with extreme humidity, to try and help people learn the lesson you've just learned, but it's long and drawn out, so I suspect people get impatient and skip through it all, but it's all there! For anyone reading this thread with the patience to watch, this is what it's like starting a fire in soaking wet and humid conditions

I imagine Vanishing Nomad's experience was a lot like this, haha.

 

Nice vid! Not the first time I have seen it!

I think one of the things I will do next time it's all soaked like this, is go direct to loading my tinder bundle up with magnesium, and add a lot of small wood curls shaved off of the dryest stick I have. That should give a pretty instant ignition, and the shaved wood curls, should give extra burn time.

No dis respect meant, but I'd hardly trust a bic in these conditions. It's simply too wet.

Although, I could make a better case for keeping charcloth in the kit. That stuff would have lit up much easier, if I dropped it in the tinder bundle.

Hah. That's why I carry a BIC and wool! That kind of weather is another day at the office, now, for this seasoned Oregon man! :thumb:

If you can't get a fire going with a bic lighter, tarp to shield yourself from the rain, saw to cut 3-4 inch logs, and a 5 inch fixed blade to baton and make feather sticks (or just shavings if your'e not that good), then you aint gonna get a fire going. And if you can't get a fire going, you better have some wool.

There have been two times in the last five years that I've failed at making a fire, and they were both in %10,000,000 humidity. I swear to god one time in the cascades I was actually IN a cloud, lol.

Sounds like you learned some nice lessons, dood! Good on you for getting out! I bet now you'll have a little chuckle everytime you see someone on a sunny day lighting some cotton balls with a ferro rod, lol.

Here's a trip where I filmed the whole damn process of lighting a fire, in SOAKING wet and rainy conditions with extreme humidity, to try and help people learn the lesson you've just learned, but it's long and drawn out, so I suspect people get impatient and skip through it all, but it's all there! For anyone reading this thread with the patience to watch, this is what it's like starting a fire in soaking wet and humid conditions

I imagine Vanishing Nomad's experience was a lot like this, haha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmU5kGAdV1g&list=UUy5gV_LdlGCR7g63LK2ZgSQ&index=22

 

Amazing experience! That was cool! Thank you for sharing.

Funny thing is that wool is one of the few materials that still provides some insulating value even when wet. It still doesn't beat dry, of course.

In the nasty winter conditions where everything on the ground is virtually condemned, especially in periods of high humidity when there is the combination of rain and snow, the one consistent source of dry wood can be found in the lower dead branches of various coniferous trees. Yes, its going to pop like crazy and not produce coals, but it will burn and radiate heat. If you're looking to survive and the ground is more like a pond especially when heating up, who cares about coals anyway? Cedar, pine and many firs will produce dead branches on the lower part of the trunk as the tree grows. These are often above the deck where snow and water render other sources of wood useless. A single average tree should be able to keep a fire going for several hours without much minding, however softwood fires are not the best and they require minding. The trick is to cover ground, locate the resources and exploit them as best as possible. If you don't have that mix of tree species, go camping somewhere more hospitable! These techniques tend to deplete a limited resource, bear that in mind.

If you insist on wanting a base to build upon, cut down some green wood and make a base/table for the fire to burn on above the damp ground. The green wood won't be consumed and should provide a raft when things heat up. You can make this table at any height. For cooking, you make a table at working/standing height and keep the fire small, scouting books have great instructions on how to build these. I've used them often, there is no more civilized way to camp, unless you bring a jacuzzi or running water. ;-) Use green wood to support pots and pans so the wood won't be consumed (rapidly). You can use some rope or twine to assemble a table or a raft if you prefer to make something lower to the ground.

For temporary camps, we've burned above snow and used the fire above the crap. Almost like having fire in the air. Finding a good spot is key. When a more durable installation is required, you have to pick your spot judiciously to prevent pooling and usually pick larger green wood base to provide a bigger buffer. Tables are almost always the better way to go for cooking. You don't feel like you're roughing it as much.

If it's raining, make a table, put a tarp above and keep the fire small. You have to pick your spot to make this work with available trees. If you have to make a large fire to dry stuff, make the fire at the edge of the tarp so you don't melt anything and tilt the tarp so water doesn't pour on the fire. You can also make a roof for a fire using green wood, but the real winner is to just burn hot enough. Reflectors are also a good idea.

I still prefer birch bark for starting fires. Unlike the liquid petroleum products, its got tar built-in to the matrix and has staying power to ignite wood in suboptimal conditions. It is waterproof (remember they make canoes from birch bark (yes, with pitch), spill proof, won't evaporate and burns hot and long. The only problem with the stuff is keeping a stash because it just works and is spectacular.

Spray your gear with scotchguard or some other weatherproofing and do this regularly.

There is much less available wood during these times of the year and this modifies the math when it comes to endurance in such conditions.

Humidity is one of the serious limiting conditions to surviving in such circumstances, good of you to spot that! Sometimes it is better to curl up in front of the fireplace!

Cutting fir tree branches can be used to spread on the ground to keep from coming into contact with the crap on the ground snow/slush and minimizing thermal exposure. Avoid the stuff burning because of the smoke. Fir tree branches are also useful for building shelters. These techniques are hard on the environment, so they are used sparingly (ie survival only). Bring tarps instead when experimenting.

 

There are no kinds of fir, or pine in that area. No birch either. Did find a cottonwood tree though.

 

So, I made an addition ot my fire kit. Yes, it's heavier.

I added a 4"X4" piece of leather. What this will do, is give me a dry surface to set a tinder bundle on, and get it lit with a firesteel. Also, in cases where I need magnesium, instead of looking for bark, or some other such thing that may be soaked, fragile,or otherwise, not ideal, the leather is a perfect place to catch my magnesium shavings.

What I need to do now, is experiment with making curls, by shaving wood, and placing them in the center of the bundle. Once I have that, I need to put a quarter sized pile of magnesium in the center of the wood curls. That should give me a great ignition, but also added burn time for when I need it.

 

I added a 4"X4" piece of leather. What this will do, is give me a dry surface to set a tinder bundle on, and get it lit with a firesteel. Also, in cases where I need magnesium, instead of looking for bark, or some other such thing that may be soaked, fragile,or otherwise, not ideal, the leather is a perfect place to catch my magnesium shavings.

I use a folded piece of heavy duty foil for this purpose. You can get a pretty good sized piece folded up small and for not much weight.

 

The WD-40 thread that other guy posted and got flamed about three weeks ago doesn't seem so silly now does it?

When it this wet nothing seems to work well unless a guy "cheats" with a candle, fuel tab, PJ balls, WD-40, ect. I use anything i have to when in this situation.

 

Well, thats what it amounts to I think. You really do have to cheat. There is no way on God's green earth would have gotten a bowdrill fire going in that slop.

The truth of the matter, is that the caveman probably stayed in his cave and lived off of his stores in that kind of weather.

 

Now imagine on such a wet and miserable day that you are wearing buckskin clothing....I have the deepest respect for anyone of the 1800's with those buckskins as it takes a LONG time to dry them....

 

Omg! that had to have SUCKED!!

One of the problems I had, was that my rain poncho funneled the rain off my torso, right on to my legs. So they got disproportionately soaked, compared to if I had not had a rain poncho at all.

I was just fine standing, but if I had to get down to tend the fire, all the water just rolled onto my legs. And we were doing a lot of kneeing, or paleo squats (I refused to kneel in that soup) as we made various dead fall traps. So I need a better solution in that area as well.

 

These are the times for fatwood. The resin in the wood prevents moisture from saturating, so it can be used to light fires even when wet. It's the only natural solution to your problem that I am aware of. Could be a life saver in situations such as presented above. You can find it even when the forest is sopping wet, if you know where to look.

 

Yeah, i think that is going to be one of my adjustments to my fire kit. It's hard to find out here though. Most of the pines and sch that are fallen over, are too rotted and dead to have any. I may have to go digging for roots.

I know magnesium and wood shaving curls would have worked as well. However, I did not have a firm enough surface to really do the scraping. Everything sunk into the muck.

We had a time frame too, and we were filming, so I was not free to use other methods. If I was free, I would have used a fallen tree as a work bench for my magnesium scraping. That would have meant tearing down all the cameras, and setting them up elsewhere.

It was too much work, and would have taken too much time under the conditions. I had to get it going right then and there, no questions.

 

I carry 4 - 18" square pieces of heavy duty aluminum foil for various uses. One of them is making a fire in wet conditions. I use one as the 'fire pan' and one as the cover if it's raining. I fold up about an inch of the bottom piece to keep ground water out, which makes it a 16" square place to build the fire. If I need the cover, I just drive 4 sticks into the ground and thumbtack the foil to them. Not the best if it's very windy, but it helps.

I also have some fire straws, with cotton and petroleum jelly that burn for about 5 minutes. And, I carry birch bark that will burn when soaking wet, fatwood, and a mini bush buddy candle that burns for about 30 minutes. Actually, I have so many ways to start a fire that my friends kid me about them. But, I like to feel secure that if I need to get one going, I can.

Another thing I have in the kit is a homemade hobo stove, just a campbell's soup can I cut up. It's easy to get a fire going in it and then you can use it to dry out your wood a bit while you create a small coal bed.

Thanks for the post. I've never been in conditions such as you described. Now I need to start thinking about beefing up my wet weather capability.

 

If this is the toughest situation you have faced, it is all the more reason to get back out in the worst weather your area has an operate in it. I've talked about it with other people before and they thought I was a loon.

The time to find out what works and what does not while being in worst case weather senario is not exactly ideal.

It helps you mentally also, the been there done that lets you not get worked up when your life depends on your actions and allows you to focus on what needs to be done

 

Yeah, I agree. This was tougher than dealing with 2 feet of snow, and single digits temps. All the moisture actually made it harder to regulate body temps than the near zero temps do.

It could have been worse though. It could have open down poured. I would have put a tarp up first thing at that point.

The team did a class after all this on the dead fall traps for the meet up. People were freezing and soaking wet in no time, despite only being out there 2 hours (3 to 5). Rob and i did much better because of the way were were dressed, and we had been out there sine 9AM.

 

I use vasoline and cotton for starter , it's like cheating .
Ideally , one could build a Teepee tall enough to build the fire inside alowing your self room to cook and warm your self .
building the elevated platform will make a big difference ,but you have to remember to build small fires only.
I was thinking that one could either bring a 5 gallon steel bucket and lay it on it's side and build a fire inside of it or some sheet metal plates that can be locked together in a box shape to build your fire in and cook on the top of it .

 

You know, thinking about it now, I would have been much better building a variation of a self feeding fire. The initial ignition would have still been hard, but if I had tried it on my drum liner first, I would have saved myself a lot of aggravation.

 

I carry a bottle of MAPP gas and a turbotorch, dont care if it's cheating. Im still alive.

 

i suggest you use ziploc bags to prevent wet/ruined gear...

 

Great post! My favorite cheat is a large bottle of hand sanitizer and good ol' Mr Bic. That stuff almost burns underwater.

 

I have tried the hand Sanitizer "cheat" and found that yes it does in fact burn but i thought with flame was pretty weak, almost to the point of being worthless unless in a protected area,no wind and using dry tinder. I was using 62% Ethyl type. It worked for the sake of conversation, but i would use almost any other "cheat" first.

Perhaps the brand i used didn't have enough alcohol % or was old, heck i don't know, but it was a very weak flame.

This past weekend i was able to procured a nice big hunk of sapwood/fatwood smells seriously of pine sap, yellow, kinda resionous from a dead Blue Spruce Pine tree, so I'm be upgrading my tinder box!!

Got a few chunks of hardened resin at same time, so i thought they would be a nice addition as well, wonderful smell burned, kinda like my woman's fu fu candles only with a true honest pine smell!! :thumb:

 

Did you have any luck with the deadfall traps? How many did you set?

For your pack, I would try the spray on waterproof stuff. You can get some pretty cheap at Walmart in the tent section. And maybe seal up the seams with shoe-goo or something like it. I'm going to go overboard with some of those seal line pouches. Get enough to hopefully have everything protected inside my ruck.

 

Its a tall order. I have given up, and just use freezer and trash bags, but then, I am pretty lazy when it comes to doing stuff like that. There are to many cheap free options for it to be worth my time, but my Father used the scotchguard allot. Dry gear though is a good point for the EWLS system though. Nothing sucks more then wet foot gear.

 

1. Dry Bag for pack, USGI, $9:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/54...om/product/547440/atlanco-mil-spec-rubber-lined-waterproof-bag-nylon-olive-drab

Bombproof & waterproof; about 62 liters (Large ALICE compartment sized), ~ 14.5 oz.; no need to tie shut for simple rain...simply fold top over inside of pack.

2. MSR 11 oz fuel bottle, $15:
http://shop.vtarmynavy.com/msr-fuel-bottles-p871.aspx
Fill with white gas...use to start fire when conditions suck. KISS. Any brand of metal fuel bottle will work...

3. Rain Jacket/Pants...~$20 generic nylon/PVC rain suit... or about $50 for a decent set of Frog Togs. Ponchos blow for actual wear...as you found out. If you can spring for it...get some surplus ECWS Goretex off of ebay. $100 - $150 for a set of hardshell rain wear (top & bottom).

4. Knee Pads. Home Depot. $5 ...or a stadium seat foam pad for sitting/kneeling on cold wet ground or snow.

 

1. Dry Bag for pack, USGI, $9:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/54...om/product/547440/atlanco-mil-spec-rubber-lined-waterproof-bag-nylon-olive-drab

Bombproof & waterproof; about 62 liters (Large ALICE compartment sized), ~ 14.5 oz.; no need to tie shut for simple rain...simply fold top over inside of pack.

2. MSR 11 oz fuel bottle, $15:
http://shop.vtarmynavy.com/msr-fuel-bottles-p871.aspx
Fill with white gas...use to start fire when conditions suck. KISS. Any brand of metal fuel bottle will work...

3. Rain Jacket/Pants...~$20 nylon/PVC rain suit... or about $50 for a decent set of Frog togs. Ponchos blow for actual wear...as you found out.

4. Knee Pads. Home Depot. $5 ...or a stadium seat foam pad for sitting/kneeling on cold wet ground or snow.

I have those green 8"×16" foam 'gardening' pads from walmart. I love em. Use it to kneel by the fire, set it on a log for a comfy seat. etc...
I have been looking for the large Alice liners. Mine is long gone and no milsurp around carries them anymore.

 

OK, maybe I missed it in all of that, did you then or do you know have a BIC lighter in there somewhere???????????????????

 

No Bic lighters. Not going to have one either. I doubt it would have done any good in these conditions. The air itself was dripping with water. I really don't see it possible to keep a bic dry enough to light in those conditions.

 

Lovin' the thread. Learning a lot. Making me think.

I recently added a 2 ounce tube of petroleum jelly to my fire kit. If you can get a spark into it it will burn.


Also figuring that when it comes to living or dieing.....I'm going to cheat if I want to.

http://www.harborfreight.com/pencil-torch-94185.html

2000 degrees F maximum temperature
Up to 15 minutes burn time
About the size of a pencil.

May need to add a small can of butane to your bag.

 

TimHaar: I have been looking for the large Alice liners. Mine is long gone and no milsurp around carries them anymore.

Yeah, the old lightweight ripstop bags were the heat, but the heavier rubberized bag ain't bad either. For the old style bags:

Carry them but currently out:
http://www.georgia-outfitters.com/page84.shtml

Here's a source for the just small liners (for the external ALICE pockets)
http://www.armysurpluswarehouse.com...ary-issue-unique-items-odds-and-ends/military-bags/small-alice-pack-liners.html

Here's a set (1 LG / 3 Small) on ebay for $15:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alice-Pack-...e-Pack-Liners-Brand-New-/330884993102?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0a48504e

 

Thanks Astronomy, I'll be jumpin on the set from ebay asap. It'll be nice to have the small ones too. That large should fit good in my Molle rifleman ruck as well.

 

Curios why so many go with a liner? Why not use a pack cover?

 

Not sure I understand the animosity toward the bic lighters. I never hear this sort of "they fail" talk about matches or fire steels. Even if you're going ultra light is there any good reason NOT to take a mini bic? That said, cool thread. Definitely keep up the good work.

 

I love em! I have a sealed up bic in about every pocket in my pack, including the FAK.

Last weekend I had my son start our fire with mag and after about ten minutes of him trying he burst out,"I know you got a lighter your pocket!"

 

Curios why so many go with a liner? Why not use a pack cover?

Because a dry bag (liner) provides 360 degree protection for contents while a pack cover does not...especially in a super heavy downpour...or a mishap in a stream, river, or flood. Or when your pack falls over after being grounded...and you wake up hours later to find that it got soaked on one side anyway, despite the cover.

You could always use both.

 

Or a squirrel chewed thru your plastic covering just b4 nightfall, and it rained during the early hours, And you were so tired you thot u chased the little bassturd away with no harm done. U wake up to WET clean clothes after taking a nice shower, and have to put back on your dry dirty ones Still was a nice cool day to stay by fire and dry everything out. More rest and recovery that was well needed.

 

Safe to say, Pack covers are more for fair weather, sprinkles, and magazine photos of foul weather. Liners are for what really happens when the tail gate drops and the trip begins, the weather man is wrong (like 50% of the time), it rains for the whole trip, or the creek is a little deeper than you thought, or the pack falls out of the canoe.

Not that any of those things have ever happened to me, but hey, guys talk...

 

V.N. I have been using/testing a pair of Browning Gore Tex rain pants and they are the bomb!

I also have a pair of the Nike brand rain pants and while they are water proof and cut nicely for comfort they also will condensate on the inside if your sweating much.

The Under Armour rain jacket is awesome with sleeves that are like mid length thumb gloves. nice option if needed. Too bad this high end stuff isn't more durable, i cant see any of it lasting long term in a brushy woods environment. And there's always the burn/melt risk around fire.


I think the only really long term stuff would be waxed canvas, heavy but time tested. Maybe someone else has input. I used to have a outback duster oiled and heavy as hello. Ditched it due to the weigh, looked good back in the day. It would be nice if traveling on a horse, those days are way past for me.

 

I went out in my woods for the weekend to test some new stuff out. It was supposed to rain so I brought my gortex parka and pants that I got in the military. I love this setup. I saw the parka at a milsurp going for $245 though. It's was pricey. I had no idea they were that expensive!

What I was testing was a canvas tarp that I was given last week. It was old, and an edge was kinda rotted so I cut the all edges off and now it's just a flat piece of canvas with no grommets or seams. I use the tarp claws for hanging. I set it up as a canopy over the front of the tent and where our fire was. I won't go camping without the canvas tarp again. It worked great! And since there were no grommets or seams, it folded up very flat and stowed upright in the back of my ruck. I'm a canvas convert now.