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Ummm...the debate was over before it began. Round two goes to Mongoose.

Seems the Hippie put everyone on his ignore list..

Excellent way to debate.. If someone doesn't say what you want to hear, censor them until everyone is agreeing with you and life can be a happy and peaceful adventure with pretty rainbows and unicorns dancing around in his garden, while smoking a bong full of salvia..

Oh, what do you know.. Here's hippie and one of his gardening tip videos now.
Hippie Survivalist Gardening Tip #32
 
headin ta Jawja meet n greet ......... that should give ya time to git off the matt HS (lol)
be back monday
 
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Seems the Hippie put everyone on his ignore list..

Excellent way to debate.. If someone doesn't say what you want to hear, censor them until everyone is agreeing with you and life can be a happy and peaceful adventure with pretty rainbows and unicorns dancing around in his garden, while smoking a bong full of salvia..

Oh, what do you know.. Here's hippie and one of his gardening tip videos now.
Hippie Survivalist Gardening Tip #32
A few years ago, that bong thing would have sounded mighty fine. Not so much any mo. Gotta stay alert. The clip was friggin hilarious. I can hardly see through the tears.
 
Well, since the floor seems open to commentary, I'll comment.

I find myself agreeing more with Hippie's plan than Mongoose's not because I like it, but because I think HS's is more thought out and coherent.

I disagree with his proposed increase in fuel taxes - that tends to hit the poorest the hardest. Without real changes to infrastructure and urban planning, it puts an unfair burden on commuters who often live in exurbs to find more affordable housing. This also punishes farmers, who traditionally use more fuel to mechanically farm large acreages and do so often at a razor-thin profit margin.

I also am a proponent of a flat tax of say 10% across the board - removing tax shelters and taxing businesses at the same rate as Joe Sixpack. Since poor folks are less likely to owe taxes on capital gains, stock dividends, etc, the absolute tax would be progressive.

I don't think government need compel people to stop buying expensive commodities, the market will do that. With prices rising for oil, already we see GM closing truck plants and selling off the Hummer line. I think the future already looks greener because of rising oil prices.

Goose's proposal is much messier and generally prone to handwaving. There is no vested interest in Congress cutting entitlements - that's political suicide. Not just for the older folks who vote, but poor folks and bleeding hearts. Medicare is big business, and cutting entitlements will never fly politically.

An alternative is to let the damnned thing go bankrupt. But that's another thread.

Eliminating Congressional pay raises will not balance the federal budget. This is just a spiteful attack against those dirty politicians in Washington, besides, they'll never vote for it.

I do like the removal of duplicate programs proposal, but most of these programs are local pork. Again, political suicide for the rep that proposes NOT building that military base in their area.

I think Goose misunderstands how oil is priced. There is not a shortage of oil, there is the same oil available as there was when we were paying $50/bbl. The issue is speculation - the value of the dollar is so undercut by fed interest rate shenningans that traders are speculating in oil as a hedge against hyperinflation of the dollar. The solution is freezing interest rate cuts, and increasing them slightly, and the re-publication of the M3 reports so we know exactly how many dollars are in circulation.

Alternative power sources are not as portable, convertible or storeable as petroleum, not as receptive to demand changes. I don't see any real improvements in the power generation outside of nuclear plants, which are the cleanest power producers out there. I would support a tax moratorium for new nuclear plants and also for new refineries coming online.

Nice start guys.
 
Point of information on public debt and daily deficiet

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

While both made some excellent points hippies initial numbers are so off it is important for americans to see what is really happenning. Trillions with a T are way larger than Billions with a B.

Key point in asddition to the debt numer is the daily 1.56 Billion we are overspending.
 
"Well folks we are gathered here today for the bout of the century. In the red corner we have HippieSurvivalist, wearing the red and yellow trunks (hey aren't those the colors of China's and Russia's flags), and in the blue corner wearing the red, white and blue trunks....Mongoose!"

DING!

"And thats the bell folks, HS comes out of the corner swinging like a socialist school girl, landing a few soft punches that don't even seem to faze Mongoose...oh wait Mongoose lands a crushing blow to HS sending HS to the floor, wait HS is now crawling to his corner pleading for BIG BROTHER to save him (with welfare and more airport security). Is he crying? YES! HS is now crying and begging BIG BROTHER and it looks like this fight is over. Mongoose comes out victories with a demoralizing defeat over the socialist, umm....I mean HippieSurvivalist."
 
just back from a 900 mi - 12hr drive

LaserCool --- yer up next
but 2:1 odds suk --- but thats yall's problem
git yer first aid kit ready
 
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Discussion starter · #35 ·
Long awaited reply...

HS: Entitlement reform is tough, but has been done before: Welfare in 1996. Medicare and Medicaid can be reformed is people believe that they will maintian their benfits or that the benefits will be improved. Health plan reform such as Mass. has enacted would allow the US to lower adminstrative costs associated with Medicaid and Medicare, and force private insurers to price their services competetivley with government programs. One example: Medicaid in my state is run by an executive that makes $140K and does a good job. Blue Cross in my state is run by an executive that makes $900K and does a good job. If these plans were competing, Blue Cross would suddenly find lots of ways to cut it's overhead: Medcaid is already efficient because it's overhead is legilatively determined.

MG: welfare was reformed and passed three times with two vetoes by Bill Clinton.
the reforms in Massachusetts were on a state level,local control is by virtue of being closer to the people more controllable, as politicians locally are more
accountable and reachable.


So, you're not disagreeing with me, it seems. A democratic president worked with a dem senate and a gop house to pass enititlement reform. I belive that our next predident will have to have enititlement reform (SS, medicare & medicaid) at the top of the priority list, and it sounds like you agree with that. Re Mass healthcare, it's actrually working! They've cut the number of uninsured by half, and so far there's no mass exodus of doctors of citizens, nor is there any decrease in quality of care. So, as far as we know at this point, government madates health care in the US can work, just likes it works in almost every other developed, western country.


MG: 2)increase taxes during a downturn in an economy is a recipe for disaster just as it was during the great depression where it actually stopped economic recovery. Consumption taxes especially gas would crush the lower class as they spend a proportionally higher amount of their income on food and fuel than others.

HS: The depression is not a good analogy, since we had vitually no national debt. The taxes increases went to cover massive federal spending to make sure lower income folks would be able to "get by" and not starve.

MG: the depression is a perfect analogy - in order to keep revenues for make work projects coming in a tax rate of 90% was placed on precisely those people who had the money to start a business and create jobs thereby ensuring those jobs were never created until WW2.
make work projects and civilian conservation corps do nothing to build a sustained and growing business base.


No, but they prevented people from starving and dveloped an incredible amount of infrastrucutre, both of which later enabled the wartime manufacturing boom. FDR's policies prvented the US from descending into a third world country and directly and indirectly enabled the rise of the middle class in the 40's and 50's. Of course there were costs, like high taxes for the rich, and this did peobably stop some businesses from opening. But the costs were more than outweighed by what was prevented.Anyway, who's talking about 90%? Obama wants to restore cap gain to the 35% it was 20 years ago.

Re taxes and economic recovery, here's a great piece from a recent issue of Time--I excerpted my favorite part but please read the whole piece: http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1790971,00.html

Recessions — like the one in 2001 and the one we might be in now — always reduce incomes. The problem since 2000 is that even when the economy was growing, the fruits of that growth landed almost exclusively in the pockets of the wealthiest Americans. According to economists Thomas Piketty and Emanuel Saez, 75% of all income gains from 2002 to '06 went to the top 1% — households making more than $382,600 a year.

The gap between high and low earners has been growing since the late 1970s, and until recently, economists attributed virtually all of it to technological and demographic changes that increased the premium paid to those with advanced skills and education. If that were true, the only answer would lie along the arduous path of improving the education and skill levels of American workers. And you certainly wouldn't want to discourage people from getting an education by heavily taxing the rewards for it.

But according to Piketty and Saez, the really dramatic developments have all been at the very, very top — not the top 1% but the top 0.01%, who now control 5.46% of all income, their highest share on record. (The data go back to 1913.) Most of these people are well educated, but it's awfully hard to portray their riches purely as rewards for education or skill.

Many economists now believe at least two other factors have contributed to the growth in inequality: globalization and Reagan's big cuts in taxes on the rich. Even as it rewards those at the top of their fields worldwide with spectacular paydays, globalization holds down earnings for millions of Americans who compete with workers overseas — not only lower-skilled factory and phone-center workers but also engineers, lawyers and doctors. Public opinion has reacted to this with increasing distrust of free trade, a wariness that both Obama and Clinton have echoed in their campaigns. But this is touchy territory: trade may distort the income distribution, but economists remain almost unanimous in warning that restricting trade would slow overall growth. There are similar concerns about using the tax code to address inequality, although Princeton political scientist Larry Bartels demonstrates in his new book, Unequal Democracy: The Political Economy of the New Gilded Age, that the redistributive policies of Democratic administrations since World War II succeeded in delivering better income growth to low-income and middle-income Americans than Republican administrations did.


Lets be very clear: tax cuts for the rich benefit the rich while leading to less revenue for government services (roads, medical research, student loan subsidies, etc.) and/or increasing public debt.

HS: Consumption taxes are regressive, this is true, but they actually lead to the behavior change that has to occur. It's a way of forcing the market, as well as individuals, to adapt to the new situation in the world in which repaying the debt is the number one priority. As you've expressed before, people have a natural ingenuity and they will figure out ways to adapt, such as by converting old diels to run on biofuels, by carpooling, or telecommuting, or by simply changing to more local jobs. Businesses will adapt too--just like they did in the gas crunches of the '70s and early '80s.

MG: a 15% tax will do the same and as it will replace such things as gas taxes it will not be as brutal on the poorer americans. those who need help will recieve it from charitable organizations who will see their donations increase
as individuals have more money to be generous with and local orginizations will benefit.

HS: I agree we should reform the big three, I think this can be done by exerting pressure on legislators and by informing the public about the problem of the increasing costs of these programs. There is no need for partial privatization--this just results in enormous fees being transferred to large brokerage houses and banks with no guarantees of a better return than by the current financing system. Also, why exlcude men from the federal safety net programs? Don't men also become disabled, unemployed, etc?

MG: privatization does not always mean the stock market - it can be municipal bonds in your hometown, purchase of precious metals, govt bonds, anything you want to do with that rather small percentage (2%) of your contributions as i recall, which came out to .015% of your salary.
Brazil privatized theirs some years back and seemed to do alright with it.
you are however right about the return - when it was set up the life expectancy was 65, for 3 yrs of payouts now with it at 75 there is what a
320% shortfall of payments to benefit deficit ratio? the only way to save it is to reduce benefits or raise taxation levels and replace the money stolen from it beginning in the 60s.


To save social security we'll need a combination if increased eligibility age, increased taxes, incentived for good behavior (e.g., not bewcoming disabled, such as due to smoking) scaling back benefits for well off retirees and probably a dose of good luck. Bush's privatization proposal, the one that's received the most attention, relied heavily on letting private banks invest individuals' social security contributions in stock and bond markets. I haven't seen other proposals for partial privatization that have any political traction.

HS: The same SS account you want partially privatized? That's a pretty big example of reverse socialism: steal from the poor to give to the rich!

MG: the federal reserve is an illegal organization, i do not recall an amendment giving a private institution the ability to create money. take its ill gotten gains and use them to shore up our SS system, so we as taxpayers dont go broke paying for it. that system was set up by and expanded by democrats for 50 years-- why did they not do something to reign it or themelfs in?


I am not a contitutional originalist and I disagree that the fed is illegal. It may not be wise in it's monetary policy, but it has been unwise under both GOP and dem political leadership. The two previous Fed chairmen were both appointed by Reagan, as you may remember, and were vetted by dems and gopers in the senate.

HS: Again, reverse socialism, given that you want to at least partially privatize these. Why increase the risk of these funds, when they're alreqady at risk given their dependency on the Fed? Also, taking benefits that have already been promised is a form of theft.

MG: the SS funds were not at risk with the govt --there gone-- they were stolen.
i trust my judgment a lot more than theirs given their track record.


I don''t undertsnad this issue as well as I should, but SS doesn't go broke until 2035, I believe. That means the money is commited to be spent. It has not been used as collateral for any debt in ways that are different ways that other government assets (or future assets, since we're always unwisely borrowing gainst the future) have also been collateralized. If you can point me to a dredible report on how the SS money has been "stolen", I will read it.

HS: Agreed. Lets also amend corporate laws to allow small shareholders a voice in the golder parachutes of corporate executives.

MG: that is a function of the free market and of those stockholders - who as long as they git their dividends dont care.


I'm a shareholder in many companies and I care. I cannot have my voice heard because I'm not a big enough shareholder--this is directly due to federal laws that allow corporations to adopt policies of excluding shareholders, or even groups of shareholders, from any meaningful particpation in corporate governance.

HS: What about the millions who now pay NO taxes or well under 15%? This is completely against your point earlier about consumption taxes huriting lower income people the most.

MG: those with no skin in the game only a check in their hands will never change.
givin ya that one it will make people change.


If we have a flat tax, it will be regressive unless it allows for significant deductions for lower income earners. That's the point of having a progressive tax system: poorer folks can't pay for services at the same rate that wealthier people can, unless you radically increase wages.

HS: OK, but will require a little bit of corporate welfare, in the form of "incentives" to open businesses in the US. Also, how would this affect the fact that the US does, based on our society, have much higher labor costs than do most other countries? Wouldn't subsidies be needed to balance out the existing imbalances in the market?

MG: the incentive and tax break is dependent on two deductions -- equipment and plants and wages. and at a 10% tax they could be competitive. right now we have the worlds highest corp tax rate. it makes goods here more expensive cause the tax is passed on in price of goods, to both consumer here and as export.


If corporate tax rates are too high, why are there so many record corporate profits? Also, comparing to other corporate tax rates is silly, since in many countries the corporations themselves are more subsidized by government in the first place (e.g., not having to pay for employees' health care or disability insurance, like in France).

HS: Lots of goods ideas, and some that I don't think make sense (no men on the government spending review panel? Also, would you pull fed grants from a private university just becuase it was in a city that became a sanctuary city--why?) Biggest question: Where in all this does paying the federal debt, or even the interest on the federal debt, come into play? I see you reducing revenues and government spending (although spending reductions wouldn't necessarily take place) but where is the $53 trillion coming from? Are you assuming like Gearge W Bush that cutting taxes will "grow the economy"? that only works in the short term, and in the long term the government simply has much less money.

MG: my irish mother would make dogmeat of those spend thrifts, and housewives realize something politicians never seemed to grasp ------------------
LIVING WITHIN YOUR BUDGET
besides men spend toomuchon cute toys---lol
the 53 trillion is the amount which is owed in upcoming SS Medicade, and medicare payments to retires whose payments were stolen and over promises
by a free spending govt buying votes with someone elses money down the road.


I agree. Obama has promised to enact PAYGO legislation. This is in contrast to MeCain, who actually wants to extend Bush's lopsided, expensive and debt-inducing tax cuts. Obama has the most balanced set of economic proposals for the next administration, IMO.

HS: Good ideas, but are you actively against cutting consumption through concervation? The fact is we can, and I belive we have started the process already, of re-inventing our society to be less reliant on either fossil fuels or elkectricity (generated by coal, hydro of nuclear). This is the way we will continue to make progress while also not destroying mother Earth.

MG: naw i believe in conservation. if we drill today we will see that oil in 2-5 yrs by that time we will have changed our habits and may even be able to make a few bucks selling oil to the chinese.


see below

HS: Also, a question: Why, given the amount of time that the GOP has held the white house, including 4+ of the last 7 years with GOP majorities in the house and senate, has the stuff you listed above not been happening? I think I know the answer: because there is no national, strategic leadership around the issue of our energy dependence, because the potential leaders realize it will involve politically painful choices, such as...reducing consumption! Conservation has to be a major component of the US's energy independence, but the GOP and most of corporate America would rather do the easy short-term solution than more responsible medium-to-long term solution. If we cut consumption by 20% or more, we wouldn't need all those new refinieries you want.

MG: you need energy to grow an economy, you cant drill your way out or conserve your way out, you must do both as well as develop new sources. for 30+ years we have not been able to open up new energy fields, build nuclear, or hydro generating systems or new refineries that are at this time operating at 95% capacity. dont think it was the republicans that kept us from doing that.


But...but..the republicans been sharing power with the dems since the 1940's! The dems have had people like John Breaux, Lloyd Bentsen, Landrieu and lots of other southern and western dems who are pro-oil during that time. It cannot be that the dems have been stonewalling this issue this long and this successfully. This is not a partsan issue, it's an issue of LACK OF LEADERSHIP AND FORESIGHT (not intending to yell, just to emphasize) along with the forces of the market. Who prevented all that drilling? The market did. Who prevented all the new nukes we now wish we had? American public opinion (Americans were very scared by three mile island--and rightly so). Playing the "blame the dems" game for our failed national energy policy game is disingenuous.

The #1 reason, cited in the Time issue above, for not having more refineries is business' lack of investment in refineries, NOT demorats and environmentalists. States like LA and TX are very friendly to the oil industry and have lots of power in congress and for the last 7 years a gop president. If businesses are crying about "they won't let us build a refinery!" it's total BS. Now we see new permits being started, because, get this, refining is getting more profitable! So Exxon et al. go ahead and drill some more now they think it's profitiable, but drilling alone won't solve the problems that the world is going to be facing if there's an energy crunch in the next few years. I'm glad you acknowledge the important role of conservation in addressing our energy problems, though.

HippieSurvivalist
 
Readers Digest .

Who prevented all that drilling?
Slick Willey vetoed drilling in the ANWR .

If businesses are crying about "they won't let us build a refinery!" it's total BS. Now we see new permits being started, because, get this, refining is getting more profitable!
We wont bother talking about all the envrio wack jobs sueing every time a permit gets issued for a mine , or refinery etc ...................

(Americans were very scared by three mile island--and rightly so).
No we are not . Loud mouth wacko's in the press try and tell America what they think .
 
Just a point of clarification:
MG: the federal reserve is an illegal organization, i do not recall an amendment giving a private institution the ability to create money.
MG seems to be pointing to two different issues with respect to the Fed, legality and amendments.

The Fed is a legally established entity by congress. The legislation in question is 12 USC ch. 3.

The other point is whether or not Congress had the constitutional right to establish the Fed in the first place. I appears that it does under article 1 section 8 of the Constitution.

So while I disagree with the establishment of the Fed, it seems that it may be a legally established entity.
 
the welfare reform signed by clinton was the same that he vetoed twice before.
it was not working with congress it was seeing the polls begining to blame him for the impass.
reform was done in Mass by the state, not by the fed as is the way it should be.
i do not agre with their solution of mandatory coverage but as a state it is their right
to do it the way their representatives, at the will of the people wish. i prefer a market based
medical saving account system an catastrophic ins coverage to let people make their own medical choices and keep costs down by choice of elective medical services, not insurance controlled decisions.

the tax and spend work programs did nothing to rebuild an economy only keep people working at a minimal subsistence level, which is a third world method of populace control not a free market system based on your personal initiative and freedom to help and better yourself.the rise of the middle class in the 40s-50s was due to a generation who had saved a world through their hard work and sacrifice and proceeded to do the same for themselfs. without govt help.
the road and infrastructure system of the model T era was dirt most infrastructure improvement was done during WW2.

he not only wants to raise cap gains (stock dividends included-hello retirees), and the marginal rates but remove SS and medicade caps to save system. problem there your taxes over 50000 go up by 15% 7.5% you pay and 7.5% your employer pays
read no raise and layoffs as his payroll increased, any inc in payroll increases fees in unemp contributions state payroll deductions, and those who have made higher "contributions" from the raising of the cap will be eligible for higher payments when they retire -- once again just pushing the problem down the road for someone else
to worry about. tax rates are for control of actions not revenue or they would institute a flat tax.
control is never given up by elites and rulers voluntarily - only when forced to.

as to the regan era and incomes

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=1120&full=1
There is some disagreement about what date should be used to measure the economic starting point of the Reagan era.
A common ploy of Reagan's critics is to measure the economy's performance from 1979 to 1989 and falsely describe the
record over this period as "the Reagan years." For example, in 1991 the Democrats on the Joint Economic Committee of
Congress released a report entitled "Falling Behind: The Growing Income Gap in America," which purportedly proves that
the victims of Reaganomics were the least affluent Americans. The report concluded that "families in the lowest forty
percent of the income distribution actually had lower real incomes on average in 1989 than they did in 1979." Upon closer inspection, however, what the income data really show is that when Jimmy Carter's economic policies were in effect, family
incomes plummeted by 9 percent, but that after Reagan's economic policies took effect (1982-89), family incomes rose by 11 percent. In the Joint Economic Committee report, Reaganomics is blamed for the poor performance of the economy under
Carter. Ronald Reagan had many seemingly magical qualities, but his policies were never able to influence the economic
direction of the nation at least two years before they took effect. Some of Reagan's supporters, on the other hand, define
the Reagan years as only the seven years of economic expansion, 1983-89, while conveniently omitting
the recession years of 1981 and 1982. [6]

Economic Growth. The average annual growth rate of real gross domestic product (GDP) from 1981 to 1989 was 3.2
percent per year, compared with 2.8 percent from 1974 to 1981 and 2.1 percent from 1989 to 1995. The 3.2 percent
growth rate for the Reagan years includes the recession of the early 1980s, which was a side effect of reversing Carter's high-inflation policies, and the seven expansion years, 1983-89.

and tax revenues after the Regan tax cuts doubled from personal income collections, money was not the problem, fiscal discipline was as is always the problem with govt spending

democratic administration policy of income redistribution resulted in income growth?
nooooooo, redistribution it is only capable of income shifting nothing is added and growth by definition is something getting bigger not lateral transfer.
if ya think they need more money, send some of yours,

entitlement reform

the biggest snag is old folks-they vote in massive numbers and this is a promise to them they will not allow to be broken.
a large number did invest and are now retired on those dividend paying stocks. if they could do it why cant todays generation?
good behavior? penalizing for unheatthy lifestyles? how about letting that happen by giving them the choice earlier in life on their own retirement. its called personal responsibility. govt was never meant to take care of you only to secure our borders, keep us safe and git out of your way and allow you to do it

the fed and the constitution
that is a big problem, the fed is doing things - creating money that are forbidden by the constitution- the legislation
for it was written by rockefellers and rothchilds--in their own interest.
not reading and adhering to the constitution has given us this travesty of a govt we have now.


flat tax

those offshore tax shelters employed by the likes of the kennedys,clintons,sorous, and a new 1 million dollar account opened by the Obama family (they only avoided 330,000 in taxes with that move ) would also be taxed. no loopholes, no deductions - just a flat percent.
if you need new revenue - seize all wire transfers to Mexico as they are illegally obtained funds and as criminally generated funds could be confiscated under various federal laws.
the lower income classes do pay taxes now SS,medicade,gas tax,
all these would be replaced by the flat 15% tax - if this govt cannot live on that it is incapable of any modicum of fiscal responsibility. business - who pass taxes on to consumers- would be able to write off equipment when purchased, not this depreciated crap
and salaries. the more they spend the more the economy grows and the more taxpayers there are, econ 101.
and when budget is fixed drop it to 10%. if they cant live on that we need new ones in there ---- hell we do now anyways


pay as you go by congress?

thanks i needed a good laugh.

they will put it on future generations and spend all they can collect and borrow. they must first find a way to pay back a stolen SS treasury. the 2035 date, that is the date when all previously collected SS monies will be exhausted, if they were on hand now and not just IOUs
the system starts paying out more than it takes in on an annual basis in 2010. the extra funds since they are no longer there will have to come from general treasury.
South Dakotas epa just denied the construction of an already approved plant for reasons of global warming concerns. there has not been a new refinery in 30+ years and they are at present at 98% capacity with 50% of all refineries in Tx&La frankly were tired of yall using our recourses, refusing to develop others and watching the only drilling allowed being done off our coast by the Chinese- who are angle boring offshore to under calif, and i cooperation with the Cubans off the Florida coast which we are not allowed to do.3 billion bbls in shale oil placed off limits by congress. ENVIRONAZIS are exactly the reason we are not
energy independent. they wont even allow nuclear (90% in France)for electricity. snail darters trump dams, a fish just caused the shutdown of a water system i california
no drilling wont solve it all--but conservation wont either- they are both needed as well as new tech. but until we develop them we need oil

tell new england to conserve their way to warmth this winter when heating oil prices go through roof because supply is low and prices are high.
 
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