What I am having extreme trouble with is finding a suitable pump to lift the water through a 2" pipe from the well head to a 5,000 gallon storage tank at the top of the property.

I want to be able to move at least 500 gallons in a day.

That's a LOT of water in a day for culinary/household use.

If you went with smaller pipes, would that help? I know it would take longer, but that may be a good tradeoff, especially if you have 5000 gallons sitting at the top.

Can you do smaller stages? Instead of one pump for all 120 feet, go with 4 pumps at 30 feet each, for instance?

You could also do a windmill or some other mechanical pump power? With the right kind of systems, they can pull water up over 800 feet.

 

That's a LOT of water in a day for culinary/household use.

I plan on supplying water to another structure on the property eventually. Also will need irrigation for gardens and landscaping.

If you went with smaller pipes, would that help? I know it would take longer, but that may be a good tradeoff, especially if you have 5000 gallons sitting at the top.

My understanding is that smaller pipes increase liquid frictions and make it harder on the pumps.

Can you do smaller stages? Instead of one pump for all 120 feet, go with 4 pumps at 30 feet each, for instance?

I have considered this but was hoping to avoid having more failure points in the water supply.

 

A Duro or similar piston pump will do that... they are old school by today's
submersible and jet pump standards, but they are very reliable.. they use
either an electric motor or a gas engine. I have a 2 piston and a single piston
model as backups. Think about 1 1/4" poly pipe with flap style check valves
every 75' or so. that is a lot of water sitting on either the sand point or the
foot valve. A 2 piston pump will easily do this. I grew up in Southwestern
Ontario, and we had wells of 350- 430' vertical. Piston pumps and check
valves on the line were standard.

Here is what a piston pump looks like... I don't know what you can get
in Cali.. but here in Ontario, farmers and lodge/resort owners love them
because of their simple design and maintenance.


http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...zTVJyJNZe1oQSy7oEI&psig=AFQjCNFvRH0GWS9qsPMAlEQyWItehHpUVA&ust=1423248928712657

This will give you an idea of the weight of that amount of water. I have to go that far here out
into the North Channel to get water, but my vertical is about 7' so a 3/4 hp jet pump works for
the small amount I and the co-owner use. If we were open to the public again, the piston pump
would be put back into service.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pipe-water-content-volume-weight-d_1734.html

 

Here's the scenario. I have a mountain property that is mostly hill. I plan on developing and building on this property. A complete off grid solar system will be designed with 12 KW.

The best place to put the well is at the bottom of the hill. The average well depth in the area ranges from 200 to 700 feet. And we are expecting at least 15 GPM at the proposed well location.

The vertical rise is about 120 feet and the horizontal run is around 350 feet. I plan on supplying the well will 240 VAC electrical.

What I am having extreme trouble with is finding a suitable pump to lift the water through a 2" pipe from the well head to a 5,000 gallon storage tank at the top of the property.

I want to be able to move at least 500 gallons in a day.

500 g/day is 0.34 g/min if you run it all day. Since it's solar you can't. You'll be limited to daylight hours. Depending on the location winter daylight hours and efficiency.

I'd assume you want roughly city water flow rates since that's the design for most off the shelf plumbing, 5 g/min flow.

Off the top of my head, the 2" pipe seems excessive. Schedule 40 or sch 80 1 inch pipe should do. Sch 80 is more resistent to breaking but has a smaller Inside Diameter (ID) which increases friction losses some. But at 5gpm you're looking at 3 ft of friction loss for every 100 ft of pipe. So minimal in your situation and you may be able to use even smaller ID.

Your pump needs to move 5gpm with a discharge pressure of 120 ft. I'd increase it to 150 ft and 10 gpm and your water will move faster with additional friction loss but you can always throttle it down to slower rates. 5-10 gpm pump with a discharge pressure of 65 psi.

Back of the envelope type calcuation there. So you could do with 5 gpm at 55psi, .2 KW (.25bhp) or 10gpm at 65psi, .47 KW (.63bhp) and your fill time would be 1-1/2 hours or 50 minutes. Give or take.

 

500 g/day is 0.34 g/min if you run it all day. Since it's solar you can't. You'll be limited to daylight hours. Depending on the location winter daylight hours and efficiency.

I forgot to mention that there is a 6kw fail-over diesel generator designed in and a battery bank for continuous power. But ideally I want the water to be pumped during daylight. I want to generator only to come on during extended dark days.

I'd assume you want roughly city water flow rates since that's the design for most off the shelf plumbing, 5 g/min flow.

I plan on using a jet pump and diaphragm well tank from the storage tank to pressurize the household plumbing. Insurance fire sprinkler requirements. The area is a medium fire risk. Will also need to supply a gravity fed fire hydrant for Cal Fire to hook up to.

I just need to top off the main storage tank every couple of days.

 

Try to track down a copy of Crane Technical Paper 410 or the Cameron Hydraulic Book. Both are good technical resources for pumping and piping systems.

 

More pumps to replace, more pipes to risk freezing or have to heat, more maintenance.

Why not just bite the bullet and drill the well from the top of the hill? Long term it would probably even out in cost.

 

According to the drilling company, water veins are very hit and miss in our area. We are hoping to hit the same vein that the neighboring well is on which is at the bottom of the hill (20 gallons her minute for the neighbor) Most people at the top of the ridge only get .5 to 2 gallons per minute. One of them has horses and has to have water delivered. .5 GPM is not sustainable for them.

 

Keep an eye on the diaphragm in that pre-pressurized tank... the material isn't
the quality it used to be, and it breaks down and plugs things up.... I learned my
lesson the hard way, and I just use a straight pressure tank.

 

What about a Shurflo 9300 series submersible pump. Put in a holding tank at the bottom of the hill to pump to the one on top of the hill. The power draw is fairly small. Like 4amps at 12V or 24V DC. IIRC they produce about 1 to 3 GPM depending on the rise and voltage. There are also some Chinese copies on eBay if cost is a issue.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_381916-37956-075-05817_0__?productId=3592236

 

Only issue with this is that the holding tank needs to be at the top so as to gravity feed a fire hydrant and need 1.5" pipe for fire sprinklers in the house.

 

Will all the irrigation take place uphill and be drawn from the house tank? Perhaps another tank located closer to the well can be used for irrigation.

If you had a separate irrigation tank, it could be located closer to the well. Irrigation could take place during sun light hours where a more powerful solar pump could be used. You could have a valve to switch between tanks.

I'm a fan of the Simple Pump, though I've never used one. Pricey but they work, according to engineer775 youtube videos.

http://www.simplepump.com/OUR-PUMPS/Solar-System.html

175 feet of total head at 75GPH with 125CA pump cylinder on a 1/4 hp motor. Can be driven by hand if needed but otherwise driven with one 245 watt panel.

But 75gph puts you at 300 gallons per day, assuming 4 hours of good sunlight.

Other comments:

12KW solar array seems excessive, but if you have the bucks, go for it.

Bigger pipe is usually always better, but that is a lot of weight to add to the head. Would that affect the pump? I don't know. You're not worried about reducing pressure because there would be no pressure when pumping to a tank. Assuming you're not pumping directly to the pressure tank, which I wouldn't advise.

If the 2" turns out to be a mistake, you could always throw a 1" polypipe inside the 2" and use that. If you haven't yet installed the 2" you could always install both 2" and 1". The cost of 350 feet of 1" polypipe would not be huge compared to the rest of what you're doing.

 

Grundfos SQflex.

I use only solar for irrigation of 25 fruit trees, greenhouse, several critters, chickens and 3500 square feet of raised beds. Plus lots of other ancillary use.

With 600 watts of panels...1 1/4 inch pipe...and a well that's pretty much endless...(it could pump 50+ gallons a minute all day long)...in direct sun I fill a 1500 gallon tank in less than 2 1/2 hours. It's roughly a 100 foot head uphill to a gravity fed irrigation system.

They make pumps that will easily handle what you are trying to do. You don't need 2 inch pipe.

 

Do you know of any brands and models? I'm not finding a whole lot.

 

A jack pump should be able to pump water at depths greater than you are talking about and I believe they still use them to pump for remote stock tanks by using solar to pump when the sun is out.

If your not building at the top of the hill/mountain I would look at installing the cistern at the top or at least high enough to give you good water pressure and push ot up there with a solar jack pump.

I would consider doing more than one tank so you can shut down one side for maintenance/repair without your whole system being down. Overflow could be directed to something useful (Mine waters my apple trees/pasture) like a big stock tank or fish pond ect.

Planning for multible 2-3 thousand gallon tanks (Or whatever size is common in your area and easy to move to your location) will also allow you to expand your system as needed and having 5-10K or so gallons gravity fed on tap would make for some fire suppression if you used the right sized pipe to the house.

SD

 

the bigger the pipe the less the pump will have to work. 2 inch may seem excessive but I've never heard anyone say "I wish I had used a smaller pipe" you may have to use a two stage system as been suggested already, get the water out of the well then pump it up the hill. remember for every foot of elevation above your point of use you will have .433 pounds of pressure---don't get to far up with the final tank or you will have to install pressure reducing valves to keep from blowing up your toilets.

 

Ranch is correct. Larger Diameter pipe is you friend when moving water long distance. Friction loss is what reduces flow. The higher the pressure and higher the desired flow the larger the impact of undersized. This is why the fire service has traded 1-1/2" hose for 1-3/4" hose and 2-1/2" hose for 5" hose.

Might consider a booster pump part way up the him. Relay point for fire pump operations is typically when pressure is down to 20psi. Well pump might discharge to a storage tank partway up the hill or might be plumbed directly to the relay pump. Unless significant usage at the well I don't think I'd put the intermediate storage tank there. You want water up the hill and in a "plan B" situation 1/2 way up is a lot better than no way up.

The expense of trenching in the pipe is the major cost not the relative cost of 1" vs 2" PVC. Same point applies to domestic plumbing yet you still see fools install 1/2" copper (or even 3/8") rather than 3/4" or 1". Large lines also less likely to freeze. I can't think of an example were going to smaller pipe is a negative.

 

The best place to put the well is at the bottom of the hill. The average well depth in the area ranges from 200 to 700 feet. And we are expecting at least 15 GPM at the proposed well location.

What I am having extreme trouble with is finding a suitable pump to lift the water through a 2" pipe from the well head to a 5,000 gallon storage tank at the top of the property.

I want to be able to move at least 500 gallons in a day.

I'm already doing what you are proposing. Don't know why you are having trouble finding information. My well has a 1.5hp Grunfos pump that delivers water from 380' down. After reaching ground level, it is still pumped another 200 vertical feet up to our 5000 gallon tanks about 1000 feet away. The 1.5hp Grunfos is putting out 5 gallons per minute. The pipe going up the hill is 1.5" ID PVC.

According to the drilling company, water veins are very hit and miss in our area. We are hoping to hit the same vein that the neighboring well is on which is at the bottom of the hill (20 gallons her minute for the neighbor) Most people at the top of the ridge only get .5 to 2 gallons per minute. One of them has horses and has to have water delivered. .5 GPM is not sustainable for them.

Go with your driller's advice here, because I don't think you have the resources to figure it out on your own. Let the driller do it. It's their job to know these things. Don't count your chickens before they hatch though. Get YOUR well drilled first before you start asking what you are going to do with 15 gpm water. Maybe it won't happen.

 

Two inch PVC pipe is usually a slip joint pipe and is superior to the smaller diameter pipe with glued joints with hundreds of feet of pipe. The glued joint will eventually come apart. That is why water companies use slip joint pipe.

I no longer remember the brand/type of pumps that we used in the Ozark Mtns but we pumped from a few hundred feet deep wells to tanks that were on the next mountain and several hundred feet above the top of the well.

 

Two inch PVC pipe is usually a slip joint pipe and is superior to the smaller diameter pipe with glued joints with hundreds of feet of pipe. The glued joint will eventually come apart. That is why water companies use slip joint pipe.

My well has threaded PVC pipe. When we pulled the well pump out of the ground, we unscrewed it 20' by 20 section.