Ok, I know having both is best but if you can only have one, which do you choose? You can't hide from thermal but NV is much easier for seeing the detail of the object. I'm a buy once cry once buyer so I'll be purchasing a top of the line unit no matter which way I go. Any suggestions from actual users would be appreciated.
Snipe10
Don't let the sales brochure fool you, thermal isn't that hard to hide from. SERE students get taught how just about every class now and it doesn't even require special clothing.
If you only want one, go with a 3rd Gen NVD. This is probably your best bang for the buck.
If you only want one, go with a 3rd Gen NVD. This is probably your best bang for the buck.
I would say Night Vision, no question. Being career military, I feel confident in saying that you will get much more practical day-to-day use out of NVGs than you would thermal.
Thermal does have its place. When I first joined the Army, back in the '80s, I was in Armor. We would use thermal sights, even in daytime, because other armored vehicles stick out like a sore thumb, day or night, when viewed through thermal. Doesn't matter how much vegetation they're hiding behind. However, that's a very specialized situation obviously.
Night Vision (we used to call it Starlight) will give you much more practical use in many situations besides just watching for adversaries.
Thermal does have its place. When I first joined the Army, back in the '80s, I was in Armor. We would use thermal sights, even in daytime, because other armored vehicles stick out like a sore thumb, day or night, when viewed through thermal. Doesn't matter how much vegetation they're hiding behind. However, that's a very specialized situation obviously.
Night Vision (we used to call it Starlight) will give you much more practical use in many situations besides just watching for adversaries.
Thank you Brett. May I ask, as I'm a non-people-shooting medic (unless and until things get really desperate... I reserve the right to change my focus then...) would a thermal still be better for overwatch, or NVG still better on defense?
Like the OP I am on a budget, and this type of prep is, for money reasons, way down my list after water, food, power, etc. But it is still definitely on the list. Appreciate your insights.
Like the OP I am on a budget, and this type of prep is, for money reasons, way down my list after water, food, power, etc. But it is still definitely on the list. Appreciate your insights.
I use thermal a lot in a non people shooting capacity. I think its fantastic for scanning large area's for life because of the (limited) ability to see through concealment. For instance, you can sweep your camera over a field and see things like deer etc bedded down in the grass that are invisible optically.
Thermal also works (imperfectly) through fog, smoke and dust, which has certain advantages.
But while I find it very good at determining if something is there, it only tells you something is there, not what it is. When looking for people in a field for instance, it will show there is something under the grass, but someone has to walk out with a flashlight to know if its a deer or the guy your looking for.
(oddly even though are FD is not in the business of looking for people we have four FLIR cameras that the police often asks us to use to help them find people since they don't have any of their own)
Thermal also works (imperfectly) through fog, smoke and dust, which has certain advantages.
But while I find it very good at determining if something is there, it only tells you something is there, not what it is. When looking for people in a field for instance, it will show there is something under the grass, but someone has to walk out with a flashlight to know if its a deer or the guy your looking for.
(oddly even though are FD is not in the business of looking for people we have four FLIR cameras that the police often asks us to use to help them find people since they don't have any of their own)
True however, NVDs will see through fog, smoke, and dust as well. Pilots unintentionally fly into fog all the time wearing them.
There is one huge advantage of thermal and that is; its not common in the civilian market and therefore most people would not be expecting it and/or trying to defeat it.
I would still prefer to have NVDs over Thermal if I could only have one. They are more practical for use.
Used thermal sights in Arizona along the border in the middle of summer.
These were taken from TOW missile sights and repurposed for night time observation of illicit activities and illegal border crossings.
People who were unaware of what was being used against them lit up like Christmas trees, I could see the variations of stripes on a plaid shirt at distance.
We also used night vision goggles for individual troop movement and observation.
I don’t know how the current generations are now visually, but the lack of depth perception made walking with them a little precarious.
I think one needs to give more consideration on how these devices will be employed and who or what they will be used against.
Static position, vehicle detection, hunting, and a mostly ignorant population at night, I’d take thermal.
I can use night vision for the above purposes in addition to aiding movement.
But if I could only pick one, I’d take NVGs.
These were taken from TOW missile sights and repurposed for night time observation of illicit activities and illegal border crossings.
People who were unaware of what was being used against them lit up like Christmas trees, I could see the variations of stripes on a plaid shirt at distance.
We also used night vision goggles for individual troop movement and observation.
I don’t know how the current generations are now visually, but the lack of depth perception made walking with them a little precarious.
I think one needs to give more consideration on how these devices will be employed and who or what they will be used against.
Static position, vehicle detection, hunting, and a mostly ignorant population at night, I’d take thermal.
I can use night vision for the above purposes in addition to aiding movement.
But if I could only pick one, I’d take NVGs.
Guy's, I've used both over the years. Started with Gen 1, moved to Gen 2 then on to 3 then four years ago I got myself a top of the range thermal sight.
From then on the night vision has been laid redundant, and unused ever since.
Now I hunt in hill country in the UK, out every week at least one night after fox or rats on my friends farm.
My friend was a Gen 3 man until he saw my thermals, he then bought the exact same sight and sold on his NV.
We are both converts to thermal. With them you totally own the night!
Have a look on YouTube and put in the search something like thermal hog hunting or thermal coyote hunting and you'll see what's been filmed through the actual sight.
Also if you do, take note of which State it's been filmed in, as was mentioned above you'll see a difference in heat signature or clarify when filmed between a hot State and a cold one.
I have hunted with thermal in Texas and everything is hot there but still it was no problem.
So anyway my vote is hands down thermal
From then on the night vision has been laid redundant, and unused ever since.
Now I hunt in hill country in the UK, out every week at least one night after fox or rats on my friends farm.
My friend was a Gen 3 man until he saw my thermals, he then bought the exact same sight and sold on his NV.
We are both converts to thermal. With them you totally own the night!
Have a look on YouTube and put in the search something like thermal hog hunting or thermal coyote hunting and you'll see what's been filmed through the actual sight.
Also if you do, take note of which State it's been filmed in, as was mentioned above you'll see a difference in heat signature or clarify when filmed between a hot State and a cold one.
I have hunted with thermal in Texas and everything is hot there but still it was no problem.
So anyway my vote is hands down thermal
We went with thermal Rifle Scopes. FLIR RS-64 and we are happy with that decision. At the time we purchased they were around $6,500.00 they are cheaper now. That we could enjoy using them for hunting till the catastrophic SHTF, was the deal cincher.
We have very little likelihood of ever seeing a human post SHTF, so defense was not a big issue, but being able to harvest meat at night, we felt could become a survival priority. We are dug'in and we ain't moving. If your figuring to travel at night that is where I think Night Vision Gear really takes the lead.
We have very little likelihood of ever seeing a human post SHTF, so defense was not a big issue, but being able to harvest meat at night, we felt could become a survival priority. We are dug'in and we ain't moving. If your figuring to travel at night that is where I think Night Vision Gear really takes the lead.
I actually encountered one amusing situation regarding the use of thermal vs. NV - I was taking a low-light shooting class at the Sig Sauer Academy in NH, and a bunch of us brought various devices to try out. One guy as an ex-LEO that had an AR-15 tricked out with everything you could imagine, including a nice mounted thermal scope, and he was bragging about how the class would be a breeze - until he realized that you can't really see a paper target very well with a thermal sight! Not really relevant for real-world shooting situations, but I thought it was funny.
As someone who not that long ago retired from the military and was a weapons tech...I personally have went thermal as opposed to NV on my weapons not using a conventional scope, red dot or rifle sights for the exact reason you mentioned in your post! A hostile target can hide from night vision using good camo a hell of a lot easier than they can hide their heat signature from a thermal sight!!! While there are some steps you can take to minimize or "distort" your heat signature most are very temporary or sketchy at best. There are a lot of Taliban/ISIS combatants that learned this the hard way and I was only to happy to accommodate them:thumb:!
depends on budget.. thermal vision systems start with buy in at $100 up night vision systems start at about $20 and up.
It all depends on the use. how far out you need to see. You can pick up both for under $200. you know rig up one scope for each eye so you can see both
You are going to throw down way more cash for a good thermal system. Night Vision is cheap, and that is part of the reason it is turning into standard issue for infantry in the US military. Thermal vision systems are being deployed to vehicles.
If I had a few bills for optics I would get a thermal/night vision monocular system that also can act as a camera for photos or video. they are nice systems. If you needed it for hunting you might go a full scope system. If you wanted it for hiking and operating at night you may want a HUD version.
if you have money to blow pick up the thermal as the night vision isn't even a factor just get it and the thermal and the NV is just a markup on the optics.
You can't shoot at something until you know what it is anyway... so thermal is more about knowing that something is out there, not knowing what is out there. The thermal will allow you to view in some cases where you cannot view or recognize in NV however around reflective surfaces such as an urban area with lots of windows etc.. its effectiveness. That said thermal can be very useful in natural environments.
greyman
smart phone attachments such as
https://www.amazon.ca/Seek-Thermal-...t=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9000668&hvtargid=pla-365069374693&psc=1
Also remember you can get cheap crazy glue... to harden plastics.. so a 20-40$ binocular system can be made to survive more abuse with a coating of crazy glue, or crazy glue and baking soda
It all depends on the use. how far out you need to see. You can pick up both for under $200. you know rig up one scope for each eye so you can see both
You are going to throw down way more cash for a good thermal system. Night Vision is cheap, and that is part of the reason it is turning into standard issue for infantry in the US military. Thermal vision systems are being deployed to vehicles.If I had a few bills for optics I would get a thermal/night vision monocular system that also can act as a camera for photos or video. they are nice systems. If you needed it for hunting you might go a full scope system. If you wanted it for hiking and operating at night you may want a HUD version.
if you have money to blow pick up the thermal as the night vision isn't even a factor just get it and the thermal and the NV is just a markup on the optics.
You can't shoot at something until you know what it is anyway... so thermal is more about knowing that something is out there, not knowing what is out there. The thermal will allow you to view in some cases where you cannot view or recognize in NV however around reflective surfaces such as an urban area with lots of windows etc.. its effectiveness. That said thermal can be very useful in natural environments.
greyman
smart phone attachments such as
https://www.amazon.ca/Seek-Thermal-...t=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9000668&hvtargid=pla-365069374693&psc=1
Also remember you can get cheap crazy glue... to harden plastics.. so a 20-40$ binocular system can be made to survive more abuse with a coating of crazy glue, or crazy glue and baking soda
The greatest danger to a prepper is infiltration: no matter what you do a determined man would get close, unobserved. So the thermals provide significant upgrade to one's defensive capabilities.
And, of course, NOTHING can prevent one to buy several inexpensive NV gadgets in addition to thermals.
And, of course, NOTHING can prevent one to buy several inexpensive NV gadgets in addition to thermals.
Is it possible to rent a thermal system? It would be interesting to use one and take a tour of my property at night...to see which heat sources stand out and to know what others will see if they are looking about with tv.
I have one similar to this:
https://www.amazon.com/FLIR-Thermal-Imaging-Camera-Android/dp/B071NZRJD6
I don't see that reflections reduce its effectiveness. I think of them as limitations. Changing where I stand helps. Understanding how thermal imaging works helps. Not seeing through glass is a feature. If seeing through glass is a must have then a different system is warranted.
The phone version was good for my own home survey for heat and cold. I needed to add insulation in places and electronics that gave off a heat signature so I could make sure they had adequate air circulation. It did not detect the contrail from a rocket launch 10 miles away.
https://www.amazon.com/FLIR-Thermal-Imaging-Camera-Android/dp/B071NZRJD6
I don't see that reflections reduce its effectiveness. I think of them as limitations. Changing where I stand helps. Understanding how thermal imaging works helps. Not seeing through glass is a feature. If seeing through glass is a must have then a different system is warranted.
The phone version was good for my own home survey for heat and cold. I needed to add insulation in places and electronics that gave off a heat signature so I could make sure they had adequate air circulation. It did not detect the contrail from a rocket launch 10 miles away.
These threads are fairly useless.......as is easy to observe, unless someone says, "This is exactly what I want to do, what do you'all suggest I consider"....???
Even after you make the decision between Thermal or NVG, you have really only just started, you now have dozens of decisions to make. And you have to understand the ramifications of what each of those sub-choices.
If you don't understand what the "Refresher Rate" is and how it effects what your goals is, you might have thousands of dollars of equipment that does NOT get the mission accomplished.
Even after you make the decision between Thermal or NVG, you have really only just started, you now have dozens of decisions to make. And you have to understand the ramifications of what each of those sub-choices.
If you don't understand what the "Refresher Rate" is and how it effects what your goals is, you might have thousands of dollars of equipment that does NOT get the mission accomplished.
I use both NV and thermal fairly often walking the area.
Thermal is better for spotting something at longer distances (300+ yds) and you get enough detail to tell a hog from a dog at 150 yds but not enough detail to tell your dog from a neighbors dog. More distance and easier to spot something but less detail than a NV sight.
A decent digital NV device won't pick out the dog at 350 yds but if the dogs are 150 yds away you can tell if a dog is yours or your neighbors dog. The NV has shorter range but more detail.
When night hunting I like to use the thermal to find the animal and the NV scope to give me more detail once I've found the animal.
Thermal is better for spotting something at longer distances (300+ yds) and you get enough detail to tell a hog from a dog at 150 yds but not enough detail to tell your dog from a neighbors dog. More distance and easier to spot something but less detail than a NV sight.
A decent digital NV device won't pick out the dog at 350 yds but if the dogs are 150 yds away you can tell if a dog is yours or your neighbors dog. The NV has shorter range but more detail.
When night hunting I like to use the thermal to find the animal and the NV scope to give me more detail once I've found the animal.
I'm seriously considering the MKIII.
$8000,but I hate Coyotes.
https://www.trijiconeo.com/products/ir-hunter/
$8000,but I hate Coyotes.
https://www.trijiconeo.com/products/ir-hunter/
Keep in mind that Gen 1 NV devices are fairly common and can pick the IR light from another NV device like a seeing a flashlight beam on a dark night. I often use the IR light with my NV but if I was concerned that someone may be looking for me with NV I wouldn't be able to use my IR light significantly reducing the effectiveness of my NV.
I think most people on this site live in somewhat urban areas with plenty of ambient light in their areas. But if the grid was down all of that ambient light would be gone and you'd probably be using the IR light a lot more potentially making you a target.
During bad times Thermal may be my 1st choice.
I think most people on this site live in somewhat urban areas with plenty of ambient light in their areas. But if the grid was down all of that ambient light would be gone and you'd probably be using the IR light a lot more potentially making you a target.
During bad times Thermal may be my 1st choice.
Thanks........I have some high quality rifle scopes, that zoom up to 24X
Is there a way to use that and some night vision tool mounted in front of that scope........would that enhance the likelihood of identifying friend or foe at 200 or more yards. The huge short coming of thermal being unable to identify at any distance.
Is there a way to use that and some night vision tool mounted in front of that scope........would that enhance the likelihood of identifying friend or foe at 200 or more yards. The huge short coming of thermal being unable to identify at any distance.
I would say NVG should be your “gotta have one” but I agree that both would be best.
Any chance you can hook up with some locals and give both a try???
That’s what I did! I found some guys who had each and we met up and they showed me the odds and ins of them and we had the opportunity to use them during mid light sunset as well as complete darkness.
There’s a few advantages I noticed immediately with nvg. You can see eyes. You can see artificial light. You can see color changes.
That was enough for me.
Knowing that something is there is nice but knowing what it is is even better.
Go find some owners!
Any chance you can hook up with some locals and give both a try???
That’s what I did! I found some guys who had each and we met up and they showed me the odds and ins of them and we had the opportunity to use them during mid light sunset as well as complete darkness.
There’s a few advantages I noticed immediately with nvg. You can see eyes. You can see artificial light. You can see color changes.
That was enough for me.
Knowing that something is there is nice but knowing what it is is even better.
Go find some owners!
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