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Is there such a thing as dirty fighting?

18K views 76 replies 54 participants last post by  jimdc  
#1 ·
Or in 2019 does anything go?

Someone mentioned they added a new twist to the knockout game. After the random knockout on a stranger they pee on the unconscious person.
 
#3 ·
The knockout game as it's called is an ambush, not a fight, lets get that clear right from the start. It's assault and battery and potentially a murder. That aside, is there any other way to fight than dirty? If you are not exploiting weaknesses and taking every advantage...you're not doing it right...lol
 
#6 ·
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Are you in a fight where there is a referee, maybe even judges & a known set of rules for the bout in question? Then yes, there is such a thing as dirty fighting. Is this a fight where there are no referee's, judges, or a clear set of rules for this bout? Then no, there are no rules. Any fight like that you must always assume it's a life & death struggle as you have no idea what the other person may do, what weapons they might have or if their friends/family might assist them. Or for that matter say it's a 1:1 fight with no weapons, but you get knocked out, you can hit your head on curb, table or whatever & be seriously brain damaged. Your opponent may also choose to keep beating you after you are down & do more damage as well. In a street fight, all bets are off.
 
#7 ·
Yes there is such a thing as dirty fighting.
Let your conscious be your guide.
Do the right thing.
But also, survive.

There are so many different situations in
different circumstances, that its hard to
predict what is the right response.

What would Jesus do?

The best fight, is the fight
you avoided.

Humility is the most important
Christian virtue.
 
#10 ·
That.

I have fought guys who couldn't fight but talked a big game. And went a bit over the top through fear.

And to see a person on the ground screaming and crying and having everyone look at you like you are some kind of monster isn't very nice. And from my opinion isn't very cool.

So I am not a big fan of fighting to destroy people and I avoid it when I can. Because it really does put scars on your soul.
 
#8 ·
A friend and I were coming out of a class on “The Rules of Land Warfare”. My friend said, “Hank, out in the bush, there’s one rule. I’m going home ! There are no more rules.” I believe my friend to be 100% correct. Another acquaintance ( SF type ) said, “ Hank,if you find yourself in a fair fight, you have planned poorly.” I believe he was also 100% dead on the money. ‘Nuf said, Hank.
 
#9 ·
A fight is two people agreeing to duke it out, for whatever reason. It is not sneaking up on an innocent and unsuspecting person and sucker punching them in the head, jumping out from around a corner and bashing them with a tire iron, rushing up on them and dragging them down to kick and rape, or one against three (or ten, as in a recent episode).

It is not two people agreeing to duke it out hand to hand, and when one of them seems to be loosing he pulls out a weapon, or a buddy tosses him one. (Now if this is a weapon fight, and you both know that, then go for it.)

Yeah, there is such a thing as dirty fighting. A punch it out, mano-e-mano, fist to fist fight is not honourable if it includes biting, eye gouging, rock clunking or hidden weapon pulling. But that's for fighting with someone who doesn't seem to know about keeping his mouth in check and his manors turned on. If you are an innocent passerby defending yourself from crime, then all is fair. Hurt him.
 
#12 ·
You must never have been to many bars, concerts, etc. when fights break out. I've never once heard/seen one guy walk up calmly to another guy & say "Excuse me good sir, would you care to engage in a Marquis De Queensbury fisticuffs bout?" & the other guy "It would be my great pleasure!" Most of the time it's some ass hole who thinks somebodies looking at his girl, or gets bumped or some other perceived slight that triggers them into punching a guy who had no intention of being in a fight, but finds he MUST defend himself & not by simply waving his hand & saying "The day goes to you fine gent" & gets out of fighting. When somebody attacks you like that, all that stuff you consider "dirty" in a real street fight is all good, if you think it isn't you are fooling yourself to think it's "cheating". You do whatever with whatever to "win" that fight, cause you don't know what he may or may not do or who might do it for them. There are no refs in a street fight, even if somebody's friend promises to ensure a "fair" fight. Then maybe the guy is good boxer, but your good at grappling & take him down, then THEY decide THAT'S not fair so all jump you. In a street fight the important thing is to be able to get away as unscathed as possible. There are no real "winners" in a street fight & no ring girl is going to put a belt around you & ESPN won't be asking for an interview.
 
#11 ·
I have two rules to fighting.

1.) The number one rule to fighting is, be the "winner"...

2.) Rule number two is, if I can't "win" a fight, make sure that I make the fight so unpleasant that they never "desire", to fight me again...

Anything that helps accomplish those two rules is in my opinion not "dirty fighting", it is "sensible and effective" fighting.

In HS I knew I couldn't possibly beat everyone that wanted to fight me, but I knew I could find ways to cause them enough pain to either stop the fight or at least make them stay away from future fights with me. Best trick I found was to punch a person in the fist as they were trying to punch me, knuckle to knuckle as hard as I could punch. Boy if that don't take the fight right out of a person... lol....

That method does lead to broken bones in the hand often enough, but that is where I have an advantage as I for some reason do not feel pain as strongly as most people do. That and at this point I have broken so many bones in my right hand that that several of the bones have grown together and formed a plate of bone rather than the original separate bones so now my hand is far stronger than it originally was. Granted half my knuckles are 3/4 of an inch back from the others with all of the un-settable compound fractures over the years, but it still works just fine.

Always use whatever advantage you have to win....
 
#18 ·
I don't fight, I walk away. If they lay a hand on me, I intend to kill. I'm too damn old to fight anymore...

If anyone attempted to do the knockout game on me and failed, they wouldn't ever do it to anyone else.
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client is 53-years-old. He's had back surgery and injured both rotators. Look at this MRI. It shows my client has hardly any disc left at L4/L5. He can't reasonably be expected to roll on the pavement in an attempt to defend himself. His knife was the only reasonable means of self defense he had against these teenage thugs........"
 
#17 ·
The knockout game isn't fighting, it's punks ambushing a soft target.

In sanctioned matches of any discipline there have always been competitors with a reputation for being dirty fighters.

In survival fighting or street fighting, winning by any means necessary is as old as physical conflict. It might have fallen out of vogue for a bit around the turn of the 20th Century. Organized sports had become popular and I suspect notions of fair play had begun creeping into personal combat. As near as I can tell, that silly notion was quashed in the early 20th Century by W.E. Fairbairn.

And I believe Fairbairn used the term "gutter fighting." Either that, or advocates of Fairbairn's fighting philosophy and techniques have taken up that term to describe his ideas.
 
#19 ·
.
Is there such a thing as dirty fighting?

Or in 2019 does anything go?

Someone mentioned they added a new twist to the knockout game. After the random knockout on a stranger they pee on the unconscious person.

I had to look it up, never heard of the knockout game.

"Knockout game" is one of the names given in the United States by news media and others to assaults in which one person (with others acting as accomplices or lookouts attempt to "knock out", with a single sucker punch, an unsuspecting victim".............. Also called: "point 'em out, knock 'em out", and "polar-bearing" or "polar-bear hunting" (allegedly called such when the victim is white and the assailants are not)".
.
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The knockout game isn't a dirty fight at all; it's a cowardly ambush attack on an unsuspecting person; and sounds like if the one throwing the sucker punch fails and gets into trouble, his buddies are there to defend him. All of this says cowards do these assaults.

Criminals neither follow the rules nor the law.
.
 
#20 ·
THERE is no such thing as "cheating" in a street fight.

I know...
I have been in many hundreds and hundreds( I could safely say over 1000) as I took people into custody who seemed to have an aversion to be taken.
AND
while as a cop there were certain restrictions I had to deal with(no death blows, no maiming or disfiguring actions) I never let any of them stand in the way of being the winner. Somethings that NOW as a retired cop I wouldn't hesitate in using.

As for the knock out game... SITUATIONAL AWARENESS will prevent a lot of bad things from happening. IT is simply a matter of self discipline, IF/when you find yourself in that kind of environment where it could happen..FIRST, maybe you should not be there. BUT, if you are, don't be daydreaming about what you are going to do when you get to your destination. Be in the total and absolute present both time and location wise.

I always thought it would be interesting to decoy one in and just as he is stepping in for the kill to step back, turn and gut him like a trout as he is wondering WTF went wrong. I have seen several times people trying to hold their intestines in because they ran up against the wrong person and it looked quite painful.
 
#21 ·
Here is in my opinion of one example of "cheating," in a street fight.

You walk out of the bar, and on the way to your car
some guy who you some how slighted challenges you.

This guy has enjoyed a few more than you have,
and after he is laying on the ground, finished,
you kick him in the face, between the legs,
then you take his wallet.

You feel like, you didn't ask for him to hassle you,
you just wanted to go home. Maybe next time
he will leave people alone?

On the other hand, there are plenty of people out
there with drinking problems who make things
hard on the rest of us.

But did you have to kick his teeth out of his face?
Did you have to make sure he lost a testicle when
he was on the ground?
Did you have to steal his wallet so he couldn't pay
his rent, and his wife and little child got evicted?

There is a code of conduct for every aspect of life,
even a street fight.
 
#22 ·
INTERESTING PARALLEL...

Call of a cutting at a local mom and pop neighborhood bar.
Come in the door and there is this 20 something rough looking guy bleeding out on the floor of the bar and the bartender is there with a mop trying to keep the blood localized on the hardwood floor.
GREAT...
So another officer arrives and I tell him to check witnesses I am gonna try to get some kind of statement from the guy swimming in his own blood. I get down on hands and knees so I can hear the gasps from the guy but he isn't quite in condition to say anything. I get back up and I look like the vic, the blood is dripping off my uniform.
anyway,
witness statements,
guy on the floor is a real Adam Henry, always picking on people.
There was a stranger at the bar having a beer. He starts picking on the guy who just wants to drink his beer in peace. Idiot doesn't let up, challenges the guy to fight him.
In disgust strangers leaves his drink unfinished and leaves. Butthead grabs 2 pool balls and goes after him.
30, maybe 40 seconds go by, butthead stumbles back in and collapses and leaks all over the place.
At hospital they rush the guy to surgery where he dies. He was center thrust and aorta was cut then as he was going down he took another shot to the kidney. CLASSIC KNIFE TECHNIQUE.
As for our cutter.. gone without a trace.
We write it up as clear cut self defense as far as we were concerned.

3 days later the cutter shows up WITH his attorney to talk to the detectives.
Prosecutor cleared the guy as SD.
Guy brought pool balls to a knife fight, not cheating at all.
 
#27 ·
Sheriff "Little Bill" Daggett: You just shot an unarmed man!
Bill Munny: Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend.
Same concept. If he didn't want his teeth kicked in, I guess he shouldn't have followed me outside to start a fight. I wouldn't ever take a mans money. Maybe his ID to have his info, but not his money.


There always has to be a consequence to an action. Make sure it's your consequence, not theirs. By theirs, I mean that you allow whatever it is they are doing to continue.
 
#28 ·
Most people in the US are so fat that the biggest danger from a fight is a heart attack. Nothing funnier than watching two fat guys swing for thirty seconds and then spend the next five minutes with their hands on their knees as they gasp for air. Or maybe they had been in so many fights that the bones in their hands had morphed into some kind of superhuman smacking machine so they didn't want to risk killing a foe with a single blow, or some such BS.
 
#29 ·
Might be true, but watch out, though.

Ask some of the same sorts of people who are responsible for this stuff the same question-- ask them for examples of things that they think is going too far-- and you might be surprised with how many of them have an answer, and how sincere they seem.

You may be sort of right that there's no such thing as dirty fighting anymore, but watch out for those standards that you thought don't apply anymore being applied to you, when you don't expect it, or hypocritically.

It may not even be a matter of a court or anybody "official" agreeing with you or not. All the people who you thought were most important or posed the most danger to you-- courts, employers, friends-- may decide it was totally just and appropriate. But then watch out for the other guy's friends and allies deciding somewhere along the line on their own that it was too much, and that they're going to do something about it.

If you can defeat the badguy, but without giving people a lot of reason to think that they're supposed to get revenge, and without giving them an excuse to see you as a monster, you might be doing a lot better.

An example from history that I think may be great on this:

Julius Caesar's The Gallic Wars is a great book. You'd think it was written by a knight of the round table. Cover to cover, the book is nothing but details of war campaigns against the Gauls- the French, Swiss, and Dutch- and the Germans. Throughout, Caesar never abandons diplomacy with the non-Romans, even though he has to show that he's sufficiently tough. He constantly tried to keep communication open, constantly tries to give the opportunity to remain friends, constantly tries to be fair and merciful.

After winning the final, biggest, toughest battle of his campaign against Vercingetorix's Gauls, he punishes them by amputating the left hand of every man who fought against him in the battle. But despite that ability to recognize the point at which it was time to get tough, his other method, his way of giving the enemy a chance to be on friendly peaceful terms with him instead, was always there. He didn't skimp on it at all. Even though he could inflict that kind of a tough, mass punishment, once you've looked over his shoulder throughout the entire war, and been given all the facts he provided you, and read his rationales, you don't want to slur him as a crazy dictator, as an insanely cruel conqueror.

In other words, he was a great general, but a big part of why he was able to do it was because he worked carefully and extensively on diplomacy, too. He was a great general was because he was also a great statesman / diplomat, a great gent. He was thinking about what was going to be said, done, and thought off of the battlefield, and he played that side of it as well. He was thinking of the human side of it, was thinking of the future. It's not about doing that just for the sake of being nice, or as a deception. It's about how you induce your enemies not to fight you.

What does it have to do with what we see on the streets?

You may want to match toughness with toughness. And you might be right. But don't get too simple-minded about it. You don't want to have your arms tied, so to speak, by your fairness. But if people can't constantly see that you're civilized and fair, then it might be hard to get that impression back. They might speak ill of you from then on, and raise their children to believe in it.

Just think of how we think of the badguys. We think of them as totally savage and unfair. And we don't think they could ever lead us and take ultimate responsibility in society. We don't think they could do well at it.

We don't want to leave people thinking that we're hypocrites, and that our justice and our words about decency are a sham. We want people to be able to think back on our behavior, and to decide that it's ok to abandon defiance, and to be at peace with us.

All reminds me of the UFC, too. I have a problem with how a lot of those fights end, with the fighters over-enthusiastically chasing the knockout.

I could kind of understand what some of those fighters rationally must be thinking. Things can change in a split-second. The opponent is a very dangerous man, and maybe no one's 100% perfect at judging when someone else is getting knocked out. You're not psychic, God's not whispering in your ear, and you're not looking at an MRI brain scan display as you're punching the other guy in the head. Not only a lot of money, but your own safety and life are on the line. The world is watching, and maybe people are depending on you. There's national pride, and so on, too.

Then other fighters might be chasing the knockout too enthusiastically just out of being vicious.

Whatever the case, I think what I see disregards how dangerous those blows are too much, and it's way too often. They commonly go way beyond what would be a TKO in boxing. If officials and fighters in boxing can see with a pretty good degree of certainty or probability when a fighter is going unconscious or can't defend himself, why can't they see it in the UFC? After all, the same things are on the line in boxing as are in the UFC.

They may just respond again with all I said above about it being a him-or-me thing, about it being the ref's job to end the fight, and about making sure the dangerous opponent is knocked out.

But if these men all have enough care and judgment to work safely on techniques in practice like chokes and submission holds, why couldn't they have enough judgment to be able to tell when someone's getting knocked out?

Answer: They do. They don't have to treat another human being's head like it's a teddy bear-- like it doesn't have a human brain inside it, and it's ok to punch away at it as hard as you can no matter what-- when they're in a prize fight with him.

At my martial arts school, we never would have thought it was ok to indiscriminately over-do things like that, never would have jumped to that conclusion so quickly. And we practiced very dangerous attacks all the time.

Cops and bouncers exercise a lot of restraint all the time. Boxers and wrestlers do. Why can't the majority of UFC guys?

It's maybe not as bad as these knockout game type street attacks, but it's kind of the same thing. Once another guy is no longer capable of defending himself, the potential danger of permanent injury from those punches is a lot worse. It's kind of like sucker punching him. This isn't a person who invaded your country, or harmed your family, or is about to go around beheading noncombatants or anything--- it's just an arranged, sport fight.
 
#30 ·
Nope.

I got busted up badly for being " nice " and could have been killed. Dude stomped my head and how I didn't end up either dead or a human vegetable is beyond me. This from a fight I was winning.

If people wish to think ill of me for dealing what they consider too much, so be it. I have no control and honestly don't care what others think. Tailoring how I make choices to fit what others think is a no go. I'd rather walk away from a win then get carted to the hispitol.

And just so you know, football players suffer more brain injuries than all other sports combined, including MMA. Boxers suffer more brain injuries than mma fighters as well. Look it up if you don't believe me.

I get what your saying dude but I'll only fight if forced. Push it and I'm walking away, end of story.
 
#34 ·
I USED to beat into the RATS that there was a difference between a fight between regular folks and cops and street folks.
The difference is
as cops WE CAN NEVER AFFORD TO LOSE... no matter what it takes, up to and including shooting someone if they are going to take you.
Not only were we representing THE PEOPLE who pay the salaries, but they also expect that we not lose fights or have our guns taken our cars stolen or anything else that could happen if you lost a fight.
ALSO
IF a cop lost a fight, it may make others think about also fighting a cop instead of going along quietly.
so
in that domain, there was never such a thing as dirty fighting.

And
it was up to the shift big dogs to make the streets safe for the littler dogs. That 5' tall, 100 lb female officer who could barely break an egg walked the street safer because every mouthbreather also knew there were knuckle dragger nastys who would be backing her up if she could get to her radio. A lot of high tension situations resolved themselves when a known big dog arrived to back up a smaller officer. It was just the way of the street.


so
no, never such a thing as dirty fighting ...especially in that world.