Wow...That's a tough one....Do i want to be armed with an m4/et al, rifle, or handgun for "typical," home defense?

I guess, i'd feel just as comfortable with a ruger MKxx wiht high velocity HP rounds in close quarter as i would an m4/car 15...

If i had my druthers, would take a 12ga shotty and/or .45 auto too...

I really don't think it is a fair comparison...

that said, i doubt that many bad guys would hang around wiht well aimed .22 rounds coming at them...

If you can hit what you are aiming at, under stress, in tight quarters, with a .22, go for it...

The Israelis have proven the .22 to be very effective...

 

Yes, 223 travels much fast then22lr. Like a 4 year throwing a baseball at your head vs a grown man. Pick your ammo wisely though because a 223 will over penetrate.

 

Agreed.

I like thE 22lr round except for the fact that its rimfire vs centerfired. neither my wife or I have had any failures in our 22 pistol or rifle, but it's i the back of my mind and I'd choose our 12ga or 9mm over rim fire just cuz I'm irrational

Also agree. Confirming my idea that the OP is asking a False alternative.

I do not even look at either of these calibers a home self defense round. I know there is a lot of talk recently here about the greatness of the .22 LR but I've had way too many rim fires misfire on me at the range.

 

I like thE 22lr round except for the fact that its rimfire vs centerfired. neither my wife or I have had any failures in our 22 pistol or rifle, but it's i the back of my mind and I'd choose our 12ga or 9mm over rim fire just cuz I'm irrational

 

I shoot and reload alot of 223 ammo. A 50gr Spire point going a chronoed 3075fps will tear a 2litre bottle filled with water into 3 big pieces. when it exits the bullet is in 7-8 pieces that punched thru the cardboard i set behind bottle to see how much it breaks up. No 22LR has ever been able to do near as much damage. Tho 10 rounds out of a Ruger 10/22 in 2-3 seconds should deter a menace pretty good too. And not ruin your ears the next 3 days even if shot inside a closed room

 

i shoot and reload alot of 223 ammo. A 50gr spire point going a chronoed 3075fps will tear a 2litre bottle filled with water into 3 big pieces. When it exits the bullet is in 7-8 pieces that punched thru the cardboard i set behind bottle to see how much it breaks up. No 22lr has ever been able to do near as much damage. Tho 10 rounds out of a ruger 10/22 in 2-3 seconds should deter a menace pretty good too. And not ruin your ears the next 3 days even if shot inside a closed room

what did turtle say? :d:

 

From a home defense standpoint, a .223 is going to pack a hell of a lot more punch than a .22. Velocity is a significant factor to tissue damage, as the shockwave expansion behind the bullet is what does most of your damage. That being said, assuming a .22 round can penetrate the clothing, bone, etc, it will bounce around inside the body cavity and cause plenty of damage. I guess it depends on what you really want to use it for.

 

i will use my .50 bmg, and you guys can stick with your .22s

 

Right, be sure a have the camera running if you ever light that sucker off in an enclosed space so we can point fingers and laugh at you when you post it on youtube.

 

Velocity, bullet mass and frangibility all go to the .223/5.56x45.
I am an advocate of the .22LR and know that the 40 grain solid is deadly from experience over the years on a lot of animals.
However, if you think you can put ten shots from a .22 into someone under combat stress in low light and half asleep I want you to stop and take a deep breath.
It isn't going to happen.
Shoot them in the head if you can or the chest if you can't but don't count on multiple hits and if using the venerable .22LR avoid the hollow points-use solids and aim as best you can for vitals!
As for .223/5.56 ammunition, think Hornady SST style load. They shouldn't exit the chest cavity and should make a hell of a mess.

 

Speaking strickly in a home defense scenario, is a .223 rifle all that much more effective of a stopper than a .22LR rifle?

Yes. For home defense, the .223 is better than the .22LR like living is better than dying. There's no comparison.

while the .223 is jacketed and would likely zip right through a person without expanding.

You have been badly misinformed. .223 ammo is intended to fragment upon impact. That's why it was built. That's what it does best. That's how it kiils. That's also why it's not the best hunting round -- lotta meat wasted with little shrapnel-y bits...ugh

Sure, you can buy specific .223 that doesn't fragment, but we're not talking specialty ammo.

I've heard that very high velocity is needed for a .223 to fragment on impact, but that's not as easily done with the common 16" AR15 barrel length.

High velocity is a very big part of how the .223 is so effective, but the part about the 16" could not be more incorrect. A 16" barrel will fire a .223 round at plenty of speed for it to do it's thing. Not even close to being a problem.

Your thoughts?

The .223 was designed from the ground up to be a battle round. The only reason it was created was to kill enemy soldiers in battle. It does that very, very well.

The .22LR originated from the BB Cap back in the 1840s. It was for recreational indoor shooting and pest control. It does those things very, very well.

.22LR can kill, eventually, but so can dinner forks. No military on Earth considers it a viable caliber for combat, and neither should you.

If you're concerned about over-penetration, it's one of the least effective rounds going through obstructions, even less than common handgun rounds. Read on the net about it for yourself -- youtube has videos, and there are a million articles, including FBI ballistic tests.

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=26

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

 

Heh, OP you opened up a whole can of worms on this, brace yourself.

Personally I would pick the .22 LR. But alot of that depends on home material. I don't live alone and there's mostly drywall between rooms. Over penetration and misfires are much more dangerous with the .223. However, if I lived with less people or on a large section of property where I may have to fire above 50 yards, I'd take the .223. It all depends on the situation. And I know I can put more round on target faster with a .22LR than with a .223 rifle, especially in close quarters. Unless SHTF, WROL, or you messed with an especially bad group of people, I don't see any invaders breaking into your home with body armor, so I don't see a .22LR having any problems with penetration.

 

The .223 will still deliver more energy

It will leave a greater wound channel and a lot bigger hole if it exits. It very possibly will bounce around a bit before it leaves too.

.22 = 1 hole bleeding

.223= 2 holes bleeding

Are you really willing to bet your life on a .22?

I personally would not choose either one of those rounds for home defense

 

22 will kill, as far as knocking you on your ass i'm not too sure of. Someone high on drugs trying to break in i'm not sure if i would rely on 22 to stop. The noise might frighten em but if he's hell bent on coming after you he can stab you a few times before he dies from his 22lr wounds.

a 12 gauge shotgun is cheap. With 00 buck you now have 18 holes in someone. That will knock him on his ass and have him bleeding out in seconds. I never understood the pointless 9mm vs 45 acp debates or what caliber has a better single stopping power. Nothing even comes close to a shotgun at close range.

 

Just a couple of things:
.223 does not fragment on impact with a human. It penetrates and will fragment when it hits solid enough bone. That is if the round is military ball ammo. If itis a bronze solid, it will be a through and through; if it is a soft point, it will come apart fairly quickly. I realize these are generalizations and clothing, distance to target, partitions, etc. all can affect the bullet performance.

.223 was not designed from the ground up as a battle round. The .222 Rem magnum , a Varmint round, was lengthened a bit to function more reliably in a self-loading rifle. The Rifle, designed by Stoner, WAS designed as a combat weapon, from the ground up and was initially chambered in .222 Rem Mag. That didn't work out, the .223 was developed, and the package was delivered, I believe, to the Air Force first. Pleas correct me if my memory has failed me.
To the O.P.: The answer is yes and no. If you are worried about over penetration, such as in an apartment or frame row house, I would rather you use a .22lr if I lived next door...
The .223 is a much superior round but it gets back to shot placement every time.

Regards,


ezra

 

.223 might icepick and go straight through.
Or it might tumble and fragment leaving behind a devastating wound cavity.
A SP .223 can be counted on to expand.

A .22LR will never do anything but icepick and perhaps expand slightly with quality ammunition.

Noone wants to have little bits of metal slung at them faster than the speed of sound, some bits of metal just do the job a little better.

 

A .22LR will never do anything but icepick and perhaps expand slightly with quality ammunition.

You forgot the part where it's supposed to bounce around inside the body like a pinball machine, destroying everything inside!

 

Speaking strickly in a home defense scenario, is a .223 rifle all that much more effective of a stopper than a .22LR rifle? They are the same diameter of bullet and almost the same weight. One difference is the material. The .22 is soft lead, which can easily expand or otherwise deform, causing more damage, while the .223 is jacketed and would likely zip right through a person without expanding.

Another difference is the velocity. That's a big one, but does it help how fast a bullet zips through a person if it doesn't expand or deform? I've heard that very high velocity is needed for a .223 to fragment on impact, but that's not as easily done with the common 16" AR15 barrel length. I'm talking about reasonably-priced ammo here, not $1.50 per round specialty stuff. Something I can stock up on.

Your thoughts?

I would think the .223 would be better but to tell you the truth neither is prefered. You really dont want a long gun or shotgun for that matter for HD because they do not do well in close quarters. The best weapon for HD is a pistol.

 

I will agree with you. Same size, same weight.

Last time I got a flew shot, it did not hurt because the nurse put it in so fast.

Yup, go with the 22lr or even 22 shorts if you can get them cheaper. After all, I don't know who yo are and would very much prefer that you be under-gunned.

 

The .223 in HP is MUCH more devasting than the HP .22 in regard to tissue damage.

 

Heard in a ballistics lecture in a Gunsite class:
"When we get up to around 2700 feet per second, magic happens."

 

That's impossible to answer because...

1. You didn't tell us anything about your home - an Apartment, Brick Home, Trailer.
2. Are there other houses near by?
3. Do other people live with you?
4. How much room is there to actually shoot within.
5. What are you defending against?
Two guys with .38's? Some loon with a shot gun? A group of Rioters?

If we are going to really discuss this kind of stuff in realistic terms then
at least use some specifics because otherwise it becomes vague and pointless
with a bunch of people thumping their chests about how great .223 is compared to .22LR

 

Well, my question wasn't specifically about my own situation, but rather the effectiveness of .223 vs .22LR based on bullet weight and diameter being pretty similar.

 

Holy crap, .22 LR vs. .223, so maybe you need to read about firearms or go to the range or whatever ...

I'm at this gunshop buying a rifle just last week. Guy comes in, looks around, and then asks me if a .357 out of a carbine has more power than a .22 LR. What the ****ing hell do you say to that?! Don't ask that at a gun shop. If you are interested in learning about firearms go to the web or go to the library if you don't gotta PC. There you get the basics, then you go to the shop and have some background so that when you ask somebody a question, you'll understand their response.

Like I'm not going to another country without having a translation book and having learned some core phrases and core words. Jeez, they are just going to stare at me if I've made no effort to bridge the linguistic gap. I've gone to a sewing store for my wife -- I asked her what I needed to ask them; I tried to come up to speed, don't ya' know.

 

In my (mobile) home .22 wins out over .223 for fear of puncturing my neighbors homes (or my neighbors).
In actual home defense I plan to grab my 9MM or .32 depending on which is closer.
Plan b is a shotgun,12 ga. in the bedroom closet,20 ga. in the hall closet near the front door.

As a side note, besides the overpenetration issue,If you have ever had the chance to hear a firearm discharged indoors you will most likely not want to repeat the experience. Rifles and shotguns are wrath of god type loud in close quarters and i'd kinda like to keep what hearing I have left.

 

As a side note, besides the overpenetration issue,If you have ever had the chance to hear a firearm discharged indoors you will most likely not want to repeat the experience. Rifles and shotguns are wrath of god type loud in close quarters and i'd kinda like to keep what hearing I have left.

I know. That's another thing I don't like about .223. I've been at an outdoor range when people are shooting .223 and I'm always amazed at how loud such a small cartridge can be! I wouldn't even think of shooting something like that within my home without hearing protection.

 

I'm pretty new to this board and don't really understand why this question opened "a can of worms." I do like the comments about drywall, and considerations of damage, repair/clean-up; and you sure don't want a round exiting your house and entering a neighbor's. But having grown up in Texas, a gun is a tool. So you need a small screwdriver to drive a small screw and vice versa. A .22 is a great varmint tool for the back yard. For home defense; being awakened in the night, a six shooter pistol is the right tool, and for me, in a brick home with plaster walls that are hell to even hammer nails into, the right caliber is .357, or .44. The former is fine with .38's, which are of course much cheaper for practice at the range. Hope I'll never need to use that "large screwdriver" but it's in the tool box if necessary. My 12 gauge would be a distant second choice because of the mess it would make, but hopefully the sound of a pump would be enough to keep that from needing to happen. If you have to discharge your tool indoors, it's wise to have earplugs handy as well, and get your wife to put them in her ears too as you'll have enough stress without the ringing in your ears. If you still have kid's living with you, I'd stick with non-lethal tools- just in case. Maybe I'm just old school, and I admit to feeling older by the day, but I rely on good quality tools. Milwaukee suits me fine for those, and S&W for the other tool varieties. But my Marlin 10-22 is fine for varmints like the foxes that kill family pets and are mostly suffering from rabies if you see them running around in daylight so it's good to put them out of their misery (and bury them so nobody get's sick). One seemed to do wonders for a sick pecan tree back in the spring I might add. But I don't see any good reason to use a .22 or a .223 indoors unless that's all you have. You won't stop a big guy with or without a vest unless you can do a head shot in the dark after just waking up. I'm not certain I could, and I'm pretty decent with my accuracy. So, I would humbly suggest that it's important to have a complete set of screwdrivers, sockets, or any other tool of necessity. One of each is fine for me if they are of significant quality. I think I'll look for the 9mm vs .45 thread. As retired military I really think .45's should have been chosen over the 9mm's, but again, I'm old school.

 

the "can of worm" is because the debate whether athe .22 rd is the best round for HD or survival has been going on since the first post here and in another zillion firearms boards

 

You've never shot anything with both cartridges have you?

Do this simple test....take your 22 shoot a crow, take a FMJ 223 and shoot a crow. (or any other small legal to kill critter)

You can buy tula HP's pretty cheap to feed the ole AR BTW.

 

Lets see place a .22lr next to a .223 cartridge and ask yourself: what would I rather be shot with? But regardless, for HD a pistol/revolver in .380 or above should do it or a shotgun..As far as pistol calibers go I am parial to .380, 9 and .45s do not like the .357, .40 or .44, mag my preference though (find recoil too harsh) and hard on my hands when I put a 100+ rds downrange..

 

When you fire a standard M-16/M-4 inside a typical US construction home, made of sheetrock, insulation, and 2x4 framing, the round goes through the walls (both inner and exterior sides), through the neighbor's walls, through the neighbor's stove, across the neighbor's kitchen, and buries itself inside the back of the neighbor's refrigerator.

Don't ask me how I know this.

Based on observed evidence from an incident we won't discuss, I can conclude with reasonable certainty that anyone who chooses to use an M-16/M-4 type rifle INSIDE A TYPICAL US-built HOME, even for a home defense scenario, is taking on some massive liability.

There are far better options available, however, .22 LR is not one of them.

Best with your decision.

G.

 

That's interesting. I have shot common building material myself and the .223 round barely made it through 1 2x6 (thin-ways) and what came out was a bit of metal scraps.

I was using 55gr BST.

The 5.56 is great in that it can do most anything you want, depending on what you load it with.

Still, shooting a car with 5.56, I saw that even just the back window will cause M193 and M855 to break in half.

Yes, you can use barrier blind ammo and get some good penetration out of the 5.56, or you can use 60gr TAP and get very good terminal effect, still, without any worry with walls not stopping it.

http://looserounds.com/2012/11/15/w.../11/15/what-is-cover-in-your-home-and-will-it-stop-a-rifle-round-lets-find-out/
http://looserounds.com/2012/11/18/what-is-cover-in-the-home-part-2/

 

.22lr is for shooting paper, cans, or rodents. A 12ga is a better option than .22lr. 00 shot will make a bunch of 6mm holes. If .22lr is the equivalent of .223, then 00 shot must be the equivalent of full auto at least until your handful of shells are exhausted.

Oh, there are .223 soft point and hollow point ammo it is not all FMJ.

 

.22 vs .223 for HD? seriously? tell ya how you can judge reeeeal easy. go buy a round for each weapon and ask yourself, "which round would i rather NOT have go into my body at full intended velocity?" Then, pick that weapon, make the round a hollow point and relax. Easy Peezy, lemon squeezy. winner winner chicken dinner.