Its part of the globel warming crap. Every time the patent is about to run out the fluid of choice it is deamed bad and a new one takes its place.

 

R134a is cheaper now than R22..

 

Hubs has a degree in that. We chose to NOT have a unit when we built the house. Its so much cheaper to just use gas for heat and ceiling fans for cool.

 

R22 is twice the refrigerant of any new stuff so it makes sense to ban it

 

I've been doing HVAC in california for more than 12 years now and I have to say stick with r22. you can still score a can of it at swap meets and such. If you're simply looking to keep your personal setup going a 30lb can would do you fine for a lifetime and I've picked them up for less than $100

---- "r12 was banned because of the duPont patent on freon; not due to global warming" -- RandomTechie III

 

So assuming I get a can of R22, how hard is it to recharge. I've recharged cars many times.

1. Will my car gauge connections fit on the home unit?
2. How long will the R22 last in a container?
3. How should I store the R22?
4. What should the high & low pressure readings be?

 

You people can't buy this stuff without a license. You can't charge any unit without a license.
If you get caught without a recovery machine and storage tanks it's a Massive fine.
No one makes a new R22 residential unit anyway, compressor are hard to find. You can but shouldn't use your old gauge set on R410a, too high of pressures. And as everyone said, R410a is junk.
There is a new R22 replacement that will work in older equipment with no oil change. It's about 70% as good.

 

You people can't buy this stuff without a license. You can't charge any unit without a license. It's about 70% as good.

It used to be real easy to get an EPA 609 license for R12, an EPA 608 license for R22 required an apprentice period (I believe), I bought it anyway on ebay, those selling didn't know the difference. Sounds like we're going backwards... 70% as good, wouldn't it have been better to make the equipment 100% better so it didn't leak out?

Rancher

 

Gas from Mexico is smuggled over border.

Pretty sure you can't just switch gas. System has to be designed for particular gas.

 

You're all forgetting one thing about HVAC... No matter how much "Macguyering" you do do a system, its always gonna come back to bite you in the ass in the end. R22 is on its way out but is still VERY prevalent in the field. You start mixing ES22a with regular R22 and its going to throw your pressures off and give you false readings on the gauges. You start getting false readings and after that your condenser dies and you're screwed because you have to have a CERTIFIED professional come and put a new condenser in.

R410 is making a huge splash in the market because its cheaper and (yes) "green". That being said, its not hard to spend the money to get a Dual set of gauges that will measure both 410 and 22. 410 is also a MUCH higher pressure refrigerant than 22. So if you're screwing with it, make sure you have a hose to keep it cool while you fill your system.

The thing to remember about evaporator and condenser units is to keep the coils clean. I've been on calls where I've asked when the last time they cleaned the coils and the say "you have to clean the coils?". Filthy coils inside mean less air distribution which means hotter houses in the summer, colder houses in the winter and higher power bills for you. You CAN get coil cleaner from Lowes/Home Depot in an aerosol can. Myself i recommend the cleaner you have to mix. It goes farther and does a better job on the coils. When you clean the condenser coils spray from the inside out. If you spray in the opposite direction, all you're doing is ensuring that the crap that the coils caught stays in the unit and will get caught up again. The inside coils are a bit easier to clean. Turn off the gas and put the pilot light out. Place a towel over the heat exchangers and spray the coils and let it call on to the towel. Remove the towel, turn the gas back on, relight the pilot and you're good to go. Anything more than that, ask a pro.

Just my $.22

 

......... turn the gas back on, relight the pilot and you're good to go. Anything more than that, ask a pro.

Just my $.22

...pilot? There are still pilot lights on furnaces???
Maybe in 1974......!

 

There are drop in replacements for R-22

MO99, R-417A and R-422. There are some more and others I'm sure will hit the market under different brand names. They are substantially cheaper than R22

These are blends, meaning if you have a leak, it leaks out one substance more than the others. After so much loss, you'll need to pull the remainder of the refrigerant out and recharge the system.

As far as using grill gas? I'm guessing you mean propane? It's been used for many, many years as a refrigerant.

Propane carries almost the same temp/pressure characteristics as R-12. It's a popular refrigerant inside petrochemical and gas plants where there are already flammable gases present. I wouldn't use it in a home unit but that doesn't mean it can't be done!

Realize though, when you do this yourself, this is high pressure and liquid that can severely burn you if you don't know what you are doing.

If you under charge the system, it won't cool properly and it will over heat internally and maybe burn electrically.

Same thing if you over charge it!

 

I've been a licensed HVAC tech for about 25 years now and agree with Rover. Ya gotta be careful with working on your own systems. And trust me, the wrong person knows about what you do and you are in deep with the EPA. They don't mess around with refrigerants.

 

They don't mess around with refrigerants.

They have to have something they can enforce... Those of us that have done our own R12 auto work, can do R22 with a little added advice, the sight port on the R22 will always have bubbles, at least mine has, you can over charge a R22 system, you will know that when the compressor keeps cycling on and off, then you need to vent off the excess to an approved collection device (legally) have a nice day EPA.

Rancher

 

New HVAC Install

Hi,

I'm a newbie here, but I like what I see thus far. I have just acquired and installed a new Goodman 2 1/2 ton condenser and a 3 ton evaporator coil. The coil wasn't exactly matched due to availability issues.

I put a new lineset on the new rig and tested for leaks, vacuumed the system and figured it would be good to go. So I purchased 6 8oz. cans of RedTek r22a from Canadian Tire up here in Canada. I used the stuff in my former unit and I found it an excellent product. You actually use less and achieve about a 20% efficiency improvement.

The problem I'm having is this. I cannot get the thing to cool properly. I tried the superheat method of charging the unit twice with a no-go each time. Using RedTeks guidelines of filling by weight, I deliberately overcharged the unit to see if there would be any improvement. There hasn't been.

RedTek includes a gauge with their product, so you can see what the suction side pressure is while filling. I have an old manifold set that I hooked up to both high and low sides to monitor them simultaneously. Maximum operating pressure on the low side should not exceed 80 psi. While this is easily achievable, I expected the high side pressure to exceed that by at least two times if not more. At a suction pressure of 80 psi, the liquid side was pretty much even with suction.

This is telling me that either the new compressor isn't working or something is preventing the evaporator from loading up properly.

The condenser is a Goodman 2.5 ton with a scroll compressor. It runs on 220V single phase, so running backward shouldn't be an issue. There is a .071 orifice at the inlet of the evaporator. Could this be too large and if so would it effect the system as described here?.

Thanks..

 

Hi,

I'm a newbie here, but I like what I see thus far. I have just acquired and installed a new Goodman 2 1/2 ton condenser and a 3 ton evaporator coil. The coil wasn't exactly matched due to availability issues.

I put a new lineset on the new rig and tested for leaks, vacuumed the system and figured it would be good to go. So I purchased 6 8oz. cans of RedTek r22a from Canadian Tire up here in Canada. I used the stuff in my former unit and I found it an excellent product. You actually use less and achieve about a 20% efficiency improvement.

The problem I'm having is this. I cannot get the thing to cool properly. I tried the superheat method of charging the unit twice with a no-go each time. Using RedTeks guidelines of filling by weight, I deliberately overcharged the unit to see if there would be any improvement. There hasn't been.

RedTek includes a gauge with their product, so you can see what the suction side pressure is while filling. I have an old manifold set that I hooked up to both high and low sides to monitor them simultaneously. Maximum operating pressure on the low side should not exceed 80 psi. While this is easily achievable, I expected the high side pressure to exceed that by at least two times if not more. At a suction pressure of 80 psi, the liquid side was pretty much even with suction.

This is telling me that either the new compressor isn't working or something is preventing the evaporator from loading up properly.

The condenser is a Goodman 2.5 ton with a scroll compressor. It runs on 220V single phase, so running backward shouldn't be an issue. There is a .071 orifice at the inlet of the evaporator. Could this be too large and if so would it effect the system as described here?.

Thanks..

Unfortunately, since your equipment is mismatched, it will not work as well as it should. Ever. That being said, you can't go by pressures alone. It is the relationship between the line pressure and the line temperature that is important. Without knowing the line temp. you are just guessing. Lots of variables here.

 

R-22 has been the refrigerant of choice for residential heat pump and Air-Conditioning Systems for more than four decades. Unfortunately for the environment, releases of R-22, such as those from leaks, contribute to ozone depletion. In addition, R-22 is a greenhouse gas and the manufacture of R-22 results in a by-product (HFC-23) that contributes significantly to global warming. Many homeowners may be misinformed about how much longer R-22 will be available to service their central A/C systems and heat pumps. Before going to purchase AC Unit, you must consult one another about the present AC Service.

 

I remember seeing a video where the owner changed the R134a (which is "canned air" by the way) with propane, and then had something bust, and the escaping gas "find" an ignition source. It kept the car cold until the failure, then the driver and passenger died with third degree burns.

 

I have heard that R22 decomposes before it reaches the ozone layer.
That outlawing it was a huge mistake.

 

Just as the patents expire the refrigerant is found to be "bad" so you need to buy the new "good" stuff. The current good stuff will be found to be bad in 10 more years when its patent expires.

They should have been recycling the stuff all along.

My old propane tanks would hold 4.5 gallons. The new overfill prevention tanks shut off at 4.2 gallons. The tank vent vapor when filling. Then they bleed off the liquid that is trapped between the tank valve and the filling prod's valve. Net result more propane vented into the air due to regulation.

 

Actually, if they are venting while filling your propane tank, they are doing it illegally. You are allowed to use the bleeder valve to signal liquid level when filling by VOLUME. 20 pounders are filled by weight. Where this comes into play is tanks attached to RV's, larger tanks like 100 pounders, etc. Or ASME 420 pound tanks, those are filled by volume.

When they have a 20 pounder on a scale, they must fill by calculated tare weight, and the bleeder valve must not be used.

It's also illegal to just fill until the OPD closes, unless of course it is a vehicle fuel tank, in which case that is the required method however teh OPD valve must be tested by a qualified location periodically (If I recall every 2 years)

 

Air conditioning manufacturers are phasing out the hyrdochlorofluorcarbon (HCFC) known as R-22, which is an ozone-destroying greenhouse. According to EPA, manufacturers may no longer produce and companies may no longer install any new A/C units that contain R-22. Companies can still manufacture new parts like condensers with R-22 for replacement in existing units. According to some Air Conditioning manufacturers, "Homeowners can legally buy and install units that are charged with R-22 or any other refrigerant, but they cannot buy a jug or cylinder of refrigerant to add to their system.They also add some areas require a homeowners 'permit' form the building department, [but] I would not advise a homeowner to do this at all."

 

A couple of years after the Montreal Protocols, I was told by an engineer at one of the major chiller companies that R-22 was found to have no effect on the ozone layer, because it decomposes in the sunlight before it can reach the ozone layer which takes over a week.

But the draconian law and its enforcement continues.

R22 is a mich more efficient refrigerant. So like 30% more electricity is now used to air condition houses, which means more hydrocarbon emissions (CO2, the greenhouse gas),
So they have eliminated R22 which is harmless to the environment, to require use of a substitute that if you believe the CO2 global warming story is harming the environment.

 

You're about 95% right. Something like 95% of R22 breaks down in the atmosphere (troposphere I think), which gives it a ODP of about 0.05. Thats why it took the government a lot longer to get around to it vs R12, which has a much higher ODP (~1)

R22, and it's common replacement in new air conditioners (R-410) have about the same GWP. R-410 is a superior refrigerent, but it requires higher strength parts for the higher pressure. The drop in replacements just aren't quite as efficient- no particular threat from them.

I have 2 full jugs of R22 which I recovered from some 40 ton rooftop units before they were scrapped, so I'm not playing with the drop ins. (note this is perfectly legal, though I believe I can't cross state lines in commerce with them since I refilled disposable cylinders . I call it my redneck recovery machine- connect the high side of the compressor to an almost empty jug sitting in ice and slowly let the vapor in where it will condense. Weigh the jug or only fill half full. Legally the remaining refrigerent will have to be recovered before it can be scrapped.

 

Refrigerants definitely need to be recycled and a theory needs to be developed which can assure such a process to happen. While servicing an ac system repair specialist also checks out for the refrigerant level of your ac unit.

 

I am a retired HVAC-REF service man, Service MGR, Sales, Parts. The manufactors would love to sell new equipment all day. They update, (or on mention recall) a ton of equipment.
Freon prices do stagger, lots of new blends to use. Recycled Freon market is still there. Unless you are Freon certified, the market gets tight. You can buy auto 134A from WallyMart.
Bad side: Be carefull when handling Freon. Yes, it will burn you, and blind if not properly added. If your quality of life can afford it, be my guest. Electrical can be shut off, that gas is a dangerous thing. Give a HVAC guy lunch, and pay for the product. Will go a long way.

 

Got it covered, I have access to everything needed for any HVAC issues. I have my own gauges and I converted my BOV, from R-12 to 134a with no problems. Our son has an evacuation setup at his automotive shop, and his BIL, does residential HVAC.

 

You might not want to bother to repair that old R22 A/C anyway.

There are now mini-split systems with inverter (far more efficient) compressors that can be installed DIY since they come with pre-charged line-sets.

The current trend seems to be multiple mini-splits instead of one central unit with ductwork having to be run all over the house.

 

421A straight drop in, Just remove all R22, with a reclaim machine, remove/ replace/ add new filter dryer, replace schrader cores, evacuate system { vacuum } to 500 microns, weigh in new replacement 421A { your outdoor unit should have a label telling the factory charge- then add 0.06 oz extra Freon per every ft. over 15 feet of liquid line length } check charge either superheat/subcool depending on indoor metering device or go old school and go indoor wet bulb v/s outdoor dry bulb.
421A does not have quite the same performance as R22 but it's cheap and it works