True, but no many think of the vulnerability of the satellite network above us.

One is disabled, and cant maneuver, it hits another, which disintegrates into thousands of pieces, which hit more and the whole process results in the destruction of thousands of satellites in hours, and disruption to many services.

Rendering the popular satellite orbits unusable for years. Musks Sky service uses much lower orbits, and will self clean quicker than the geostationary ones will.

Have your backup Ham radio setup ready for when this happens.

 

60 hz power standard? WWVB, Ft Collins, CO.

WWV And WWVH Time Signals

 

Just watched a piece on The National News Desk about the vulnerability of the US GPS system and never even thought about it before tonight. Now it's rolling around up there in my noggin. 🤔

We always think of EMPs and such but how often do we ever think about those satellites that keep our economy running too? If I heard correctly there's 31 satellites that work together and not even a backup plan if something were to happen to them. And get this, if something were to happen to them there'd be that classic SHTF story we're always thinking about within days. Possibly TEOTW as most know it within a few weeks. Total chaos in the streets and possible economic collapse within a month.

I'd be curious in everyone else's take on this. We plan for a lot of things but I'm thinking most of us don't have a spare satellite sitting around in our Just In Case stockpiles.

It would be bad for the economy, but they may have exaggerated the impact. There are thirty something satellite in orbit ( the goal is 32 at any point), only 24 are needed for coverage. Generally the threat is electromagnetic ( jamming, spoofing) not killing or capturing the satellite, but that is possible. There are spare satellites, back up ground control stations, etc.

Yes lots of people think about life without GPS, in parts of Europe and very near Israel, it’s a reality. Russian and Israeli jamming have rendered GPS ( and GNSS in general) useless at times. It’s happened in two major incidents here. US power companies are generally moving away from using GPS to synchronize the grid. EU is ahead of us due to having been hit so hard by Russian jamming.

Trump in his first term signed a EO requiring government agencies to become GPS independent on mission critical requirements. They supposed to work towards independence for the communities they regulate/ represent, but without federal funding, that’s a business case.

Out side the federal government, most critical users set their receivers to use any GNSS system, not just GPS- China, Russia, and Europe operate similar systems. So taking down just GPS has limited impact.

And, no WWV doesn’t provide the accuracy needed for many applications.

 

Well, take time and buy a road atlas.

 

Already ahead on that one. I've got a compass in the Jeep too. 😉

 

I never actually thought about this much. I'd be more worried about the internet. I do recall replying to a thread when I first signed up about Vegas to LA gridlock and how SHTF for some people.

My most common use of GPS is Maps for finding hotels, fuel, food, etc. I can think of multiple redundancies I have;

1. Paper maps in my work bag of a few states I frequent. Most show some backroads I can take

2. A second phone with Open Street Maps/offline maps.

3. My laptop (If I have it on me) has a pretty robust Maps app + Google Earth (Linux)

4. Pre operational planning. I drove from Florida to Wyoming to Nevada not using my GPS save for hotels and cheapest fuel stops. Knowing the interstate system (odd for N-S, even is E-W), paper maps, and looking at my route prior to driving was 100% worth it. People say I have a Rand McNally in my head, I just say prior planning and practice prevents **** poor performance. Perhaps I'm just a sucker for the old days of printing directions off Mapquest lol.

5. If I can't use Google Maps to find a decent hotel or cheap fuel, there's always billboards advertising truck stops and there's always "Can I see the room real quick before I tap this card on the reader?"

6. Asking locals. I've worked in tourist towns in retail. If you're nice, I will talk your ear off about our area and practically handwrite you turn to turn directions to the common places folks ask about. I will also give you hotel recommendations, tell you all the good food spots, what areas to avoid on your travels.

7. Being prepared for the public reaction a lack of GPS would have. Having water, food, a full tank of fuel and a little backroad knowledge.

GPS has only been publicly available for 20 years or so? Satellite TV and internet are probably the other 2 uses.

I can see a lack of GPS causing a SHTF for some. Mostly mental breakdowns at the lack of convenience when they can't say "Siri, how do I get home from here?" I unfortunately know a few people who couldn't get to the nearest grocery store from home without using navigation. No literally - close family is one of them. I've spent many hours on the phone with one because her navigation was acting up - telling her what turns to take a state away, had to book her a motel, told her what exit to take for food. Helpless without my help, I felt super bad.

On a grand scale, I think GPS going down would be real bad, but nothing compared to internet going down

 

I don’t think it’d be the end of the world. Humans have thrived for thousands of years without it.

It would definitely cause some initial disruption.

 

Only a tiny percentage of internet traffic is carried by satellite. I'm not worried.
Goggle maps don't require GPS either - I can get a map of any part of the world I want just by zooming around or entering the name of a city.
Your phone would stop keeping time, but a lot of the rest of the OMG! failures are mostly BS, I think. Claims that TV wouldn't work because the stations couldn't tell the time to the exact femto-second seem ludicrous, since TV existed long before atomic clocks or GPS satellites.
Maybe delivery services would be adversely affected, they seem to rely on GPS.
And just to check, the time on my PC vs the time on my phone is about 2 seconds difference - so much for accuracy being all that critical.

 

And just to check, the time on my PC vs the time on my phone is about 2 seconds difference - so much for accuracy being all that critical.

On a windows machine go to the time and date settings page and push the sync button.

 

It may take a little while for some to reacclimate to paper maps, but necessity is the mother of invention. We don't have GPS in any of our cars, and only use the phone to find someone who doesn't know where they live. Seriously. Some have no idea what the closest major intersection is. "Just Google the address..." they say...

Have traveled OTR depending on the Rand McNally stuffed under the seat for decades, and won't mind at all when others are forced to use that part of their brain too.

 

I use maps so, yeah.

Terry

 

I was a Boy Scout, among other things led my troop on a back woods canoe trip, I can read a map and use a compass. I had the merit badge for it, "Orienteering," wasn't it?

The key is HAVING the map and perhaps compass. If I don't have a compass and there are landmarks I can see, then I can orient the map that way.

But from what I can tell, most in the younger generations can't use a map, never have. They rely on their phones for navigational advice. "In 500 feet, turn left..."

Where I live, there are major roads, a river, other landmarks where it's fairly easy to know where I am, but more importantly, where I need to go to get home. Sort of like "I'm south of where I want to go, head north until I intersect a road I know, then I'll know where to go." May not be like this everywhere, but it is where I am.

What this thread has done is remind me to get some updated state maps for my vehicles. I have an atlas but its resolution isn't sufficient to show most back roads, primarily shows state, national, and interstate highways.

 

Glad I could help. 😂

 

I only use navigation for traffic. Fortunately I know my destinations and alternate routes. Texas roads are pretty good about “turn at the big tree”

 

Sure... I have some paper maps, a road atlas (a long forgotten asset) and some maps downloaded. (and a compass)
Besides, if things get that bad, it's likely I ain't gonna be straying far from home anyhow.
(unless I'm away what it happens)

 

Bob having a paper map is great.. for Bob.

Logistics, delivery, military, airlines, trucking, billions of devices connected to "stuff"using GPS, etc.

A disruption to the GPS system will be a mess and most of the humans involved in these industries aren't Bob and won't have a map that they don't know how to use.

PS - Make sure your kids know how to get home without their phones.

 

Bob having a paper map is great.. for Bob.

Logistics, delivery, military, airlines, trucking, billions of devices connected to "stuff"using GPS, etc.

A disruption to the GPS system will be a mess and most of the humans involved in these industries aren't Bob and won't have a map that they don't know how to use.

PS - Make sure your kids know how to get home without their phones.

Yup. Logistics..i.e trucking.

GPS goes down in the "just in time" delivery system and reliance on electronics and it will be a poop show.

Just got off a pretty big project. Probably 300-400 trucks and vans delivering parts and pieces. 60% don't speak the language proficiently and rely 100% on phone and truck linked directions. Of the 40% that speak english, maybe 10% have a map/atlas and can use a map/atlas.The maps available will get them to the general area but not street level. There are no more places truckers can go to get detailed street by street directions.

 

We had paper maps before GPS. When I travel, I stop in the "Welcome Center" rest areas and pick up a free one for that state.
Of course, just like cell phones, some folks won't be able to function with a paper map.........
(saw a younger peer attempt to dial out on a land line the other day, didn't understand why he had to dial 1 first...)

 

Are you prepared for GPS going offline?

Yeah, because I don't use it now.

most of us don't have a spare satellite sitting around in our Just In Case stockpiles.

The US government does. It's been replacing old ones with new ones.

GPS.gov: Space Segment

Information about the space segment of the Global Positioning System (GPS)

www.gps.gov

One is disabled, and cant maneuver, it hits another, which disintegrates into thousands of pieces, which hit more and the whole process results in the destruction of thousands of satellites in hours, and disruption to many services.

Space is big at an altitude of 12,550 miles. The chances of pieces of one GPS satellite hitting "thousands" of other satellites is nil. They aren't in geosynchronous orbit, they orbit the earth twice per day.

GPS.gov: Space Segment

Information about the space segment of the Global Positioning System (GPS)

www.gps.gov

 

Commercial air traffic uses GPS.

 

The Impact Of Magnetic Navigation On Aviation And Autonomous Systems

As we move into an era where autonomous systems share the skies with commercial and military aircraft, the importance of GPS-independent navigation can't be overstated.

www.forbes.com

"GPS jamming and spoofing—methods that can block or mislead GPS systems—have surged by more than 2,000% since 2018, with adversaries increasingly exploiting GPS vulnerabilities around the world."​

​

"For example, Russian GPS jamming near Kaliningrad in 2023 affected over 46,000 flights to and from Europe, disrupting civilian and military operations alike. Similarly, Qantas Airlines faced GPS interference from warships in the South China Sea, leading to significant navigational challenges."​

Commercial aircraft have backup. IRS (Inertial Reference System) and radio beacons.

https://aviationinfo.net/inertial-navigation-system-ins-and-inertial-reference-system-irs-differences-and-functions/

 

One of the things I do regularly is pull out my old GPS and turn it on and let it connect. When new (gps) satellites are put up and old ones taken down they all communicate with each other and give sort of a 'hint' as to where to find the new ones. It apparently helps the GPS get a faster lock. I do that about once a month and top of the batteries afterward since the GPS even when powered off will drain them a little bit.
Second is since I'm living in one state and my "BOL" is in another as were driving back and forth I'll often find some place off the main road somewhere in between and visit it on a trip. This gets us familiar with other roads and landmarks. I could probably find my way there without maps if I had to take alternate routes by just going the general direction until we his something recognizable.

 

One of the things I do regularly is pull out my old GPS and turn it on and let it connect. When new (gps) satellites are put up and old ones taken down they all communicate with each other and give sort of a 'hint' as to where to find the new ones. It apparently helps the GPS get a faster lock. I do that about once a month and top of the batteries afterward since the GPS even when powered off will drain them a little bit.

It doesn't work like that... On a cold start GPS units need to listen to satellites longer until they can determine both satellites and your position. Because things around us are constantly shifting, that position knowledge becomes old and needs to be refreshed from time to time. Unless you regularly use that GPS device, then it's data stays current of course.

Phones specifically use thing called A-GPS, where phone asks celltowers where in the approximate location on the earth phone is, that significantly reduced time for full position lock since it doesnt have to listen the whole broadcast from the satellite. (source: me, I used to work for Nokia about the time when their GPS phones were released)

Once location is established, there is no difference in accuracy between cellphone and standalone unit (other than software being smart, as in your car probably cannot drive in the forest but the road instead).

 

Can you determine a location in your community without your smart phone / GPS?

 

Yes I look outside and know I am in my house in my hometown. I even know the zip code and address without a smartphone, map or compass.

 

Not worried. I hiked much of the high Sierra with Topo map and good compass--often off trails. I have crossed oceans using a sextant on my boats. But many good GPS units have more than just our GPS. I have several with Galileo (European) and BeiDou (Chinese) as well as our GPS.

 

I keep a road atlas in each vehicle, and use smaller paper maps for local areas as well. I'm old enough that I was navigating cross country trips using maps well before GPS was a "thing."

Oh, and guess what...aviation (both commercial and private) used maps (charts) and compass, as well, so it CAN be done. There will just need to be some "retraining" for the younger generations.

 

Good thread @JIC

Yep -

Sources for on road: Thomas Maps | Rand McNally, Mapsco, ADC Maps Store And More and off: https://www.fs.usda.gov/mapfinder/

 

PS: I was a furniture mover and where GPS would have been godsend would be locating people's houses in every strange town one went to, all over the country. Although in 10 years of trucking, there was never a house I didn't find. Eventually.

 

Thanks for all the feedback with this. I feel more "edumacated" now than I did when I started out. 🤓

So maybe NOT the end of the world but would definitely be a bad case of hiccups if something were to happen to them. For a spell anyways.

 

One thing about GPS is that sooner or later, it's going to start having problems. Either man-made interference, or just some satellites bumping together and getting knocked out of orbit.
Unless Musk starts a Space Garbage Collection service.

 

Think the man has enough on his plate already. 🤣

 

So, I just saw a classified brief and without spilling anything, we are at a significant disadvantage to Russia and China for satellite jamming. I’m 100% certain, any actions they want to take that would drive them to jam us, they probably could.

It wouldn’t be the end of civilization, but it would be massively (likely, globally) chaotic. Power grids, trains, planes, trucking businesses, communications, broadcast news, first responder navigation systems, some banking and financial systems, weather and storm forecasting, some national defense/military systems and responses would all be massively degraded to the point of needing to shut many down for safety. The overload on terrestrial based communications would mean dropped calls, the Internet simply shutting off, etc.

If there’s any reason to get home quickly, it would be this and this threat is exponentially more likely than EMP or some natural Carrington Event. I’ve used GPS daily in the military and even in my personal life. It’s a great asset and tool, but it shouldn’t be your only option. Identify what you use that relies on GPS and develop a PACE plan to building in redundancy with different systems if it’s compromised (and it likely will be at some point in the near future).

I don’t scare easy, but damn, we are extremely vulnerable on a system that many industries, private and government rely on heavily. Yes, there are backup systems and contingencies, but transition would be chaotic, dangerous and take a lot of time…

ROCK6

 

I like having friends in high places. 😉