It's maybe a quarter inch thick at most, but it's not very flexible and they don't have much give. From what I remember (I only used them briefly during the very early years of my career) they would get in comfortable under a fully loaded ruck faster then the normal ruck would.

Having said that they are super durable, well made, and when sized correctly very comfortable. I was actually very said when we traded ours for the "new" IBAs that weighed a ton and didn't breath at all after I got out of basic.

 

You are the man, TXRazor. Exactly what I wanted to know.


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I wore the LBE stuff for years. Frankly they are what they are. IMO, I found the 4-strap ones to be more comfortable. When they switched to the Y-strap in the back, not as much. When I first served, we had the old canvas ones before going to the nylon ones. The canvas ones were to me most comfortable. PM me if you want a source for very reasonable priced Y-strap ones.

 

We were issued both the H and Y harness kit, and i never had any issues....We cut our sleeping pads into strips, then used 100mph tape around lbe and ruck (alice) straps to add more padding..worked for us then, i suspect, would work now...

I actually like the LBE kit, easy to configure, add in a butt pack, and nice little rig, throw on a med/large alice or molle pack, and life is good...

The nice thing about the lbe rig, was we could unbuckle it and lay totally proned out, and still access mags, etc....

here's a sample load out....

1st line survival gear on person, in pockets, etc...

2nd line gear on lbe.

2ea utility pouches near buckle

2ea mag pouches next 4 total

2ea canteens

butt pack...

3rd line **** in alice....

if we had to drop alice, no problem, we could still shoot, move and survive...

 

We were issued both the H and Y harness kit, and i never had any issues....We cut our sleeping pads into strips, then used 100mph tape around lbe and ruck (alice) straps to add more padding..worked for us then, i suspect, would work now...

I actually like the LBE kit, easy to configure, add in a butt pack, and nice little rig, throw on a med/large alice or molle pack, and life is good...

The nice thing about the lbe rig, was we could unbuckle it and lay totally proned out, and still access mags, etc....

here's a sample load out....

1st line survival gear on person, in pockets, etc...

2nd line gear on lbe.

2ea utility pouches near buckle

2ea mag pouches next 4 total

2ea canteens

butt pack...

3rd line **** in alice....

if we had to drop alice, no problem, we could still shoot, move and survive...

That pic looks similar to what I usually wore. Once you got it adjusted right, it was very comfortable. I finally made up my own so I could use the various things I liked. My issue stuff was stored in my locker for inspections and turn-in when I processed out of the unit.

I cut off the clips on the ends of the suspenders and used 550 cord to attach them to my belt. I also used cord to replace most of the Alice "clips" on the pouches and tie them to the belt. It was a PITA if we dropped some of the stuff we had off the belt but it was more durable for me.

And we did undo the belt so we could get lower so it solved many of the prone issues some had. At any given time, I was probably wearing it with the belt buckle undone. If on a long patrol it started causing problems, I'd clip it back together to better distribute the load.

When we wore the med Alice Pack, most of us would unclip the belt which allowed the LBE belt to sit a little lower. When we switched to the large Alice Pack, it became more difficult to get everything to fit together well. Someone, I forget who mentioned many guys would take off their LBE and put it over the pack. I rarely did that. Usually only on a 12-mi forced march during training when there was no OPFOR around. The rest of the time, I just sucked it up. Probably explains why I have back issues and neck and shoulder issues now. Carrying heavy loads with poorly fitting, with poorly designed ergonomics probably caused a lot of it. :

But I still like the LBE more than chest rigs.

 

Build extra rigs (H harness ) (Y harness) Avoid M1956 Pattern gear as it is mostly collector stuff and zero in on M1967 and later stuff (I built many rigs including a M1956 Transitional Early Nam rig geared for both M14 and early XM16E1 for collection , an Mid Late Nam M1967 H Harness Rig , a 1980s Y harness Rig with upgraded Modernized M1967 set ups , and various 20th century Tactical Rigs for Militia usage ...

 

And don't forget to tape down your adjusters/ straps. Otherwise you'll sound like a Chinese new years parade.

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Oh yeah- tape everything down. Of course, that created a PITA when winter came. You'd be cutting off tape and readjusting everything to fit over more clothes. Then later in the spring, you'd readjust again. It was a cycle we went through. After a few years, I used a permanent marker and marked the strap adjustments for both seasons.

Yeah- I'm slow. It took a bit for me to do that. :

 

I was waiting for you more expirences guys to chime in. Awesome information, I personally love hearing about how things used to be and watch the progression to where we are now.

With the rise in popularity of battle belts and the harnesses some use with them I think the system is making a well deserved come back, the practicality of having gear on your hips where is can easily be accessed in multiple positions is very useful.

We had a guy in my first unit who for years would wear an old LBE set up over his IBA. He loved it and refused to use his IBA unless he absolutely had to and it was always slick because all his gear was on LBE. Best part was when people would try to get him to swap it out for uniformity reasons, he would simple state this is my issued gear, it's on my CIF record, are you telling me I can't wear issued gear?

Fun times.

 

It's funny how times (and gear) have changed so much. And with all those changes have come a never ending source of annoyance to me.
What you can/can't wear.
I get uniformity and how it is important on many levels. What kills me is how slow leadership is to make smart changes but are in a rush to make the stupid ones.
When gortex jackets came out they were the bomb. But I can still remember watching folks ordered to take em off in the rain because some didn't have theirs on. Stupid.
But fast forward and look at the roll out of multicam/new PTs. It's now OK for the "cool kids" to wear their next Gen stuff in formation while those stuck with ACUs gotta wait? Ok... I can see the dilemma when you're trying to field new uniforms, have new soldiers getting issued new but not enough to reissue to existing soldiers. Logistical cluster, got it.
But look at pt socks. Standard white socks which come above the ankle worked fine. Then you get into the sparklefarts generations wanting to wear ankle socks or ones with logos.
Why?
Now... apparently because the military went soft, you can even wear black socks. WHY? Individualism?
Stupid.
Back in the day we got a flak vest. About the only thing you could attach to it was a first aid pouch (with bangadge or compass) and an angle head flashlight. Everything else went on the LBE.
Now? We get an IOTV(etc) with plates and molle points all over it. We also get a flic for more stuff but it's a 1st class pita to wear, especially if you're in and out of vehicles a lot.
Not really sure there is a good answer anymore. At least one that would work to keep the future generations of ergonomically insistent soldiers happy.
Imho, we have over technologied ourselves for the combat arms. It's a dirty job, ya get dirty. Making me expose myself because your sop requires me to have all sorts of stuff lashed on my chest just to look uniform is an SOP fail. Fix the SOP or stop expecting me to modify it to what works.


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I went ahead and ordered the Y-harness and pistol belt (black quick release) in large, very good condition for $7.57 and a compass pouch for $3.14. Like I said I already have the canteen pouches attached to the hip belt of my MOLLE ruck using adapters, but those will be transferred to the LBE. Right now I'm not worried about magazine pouches because I don't have an AR and as of right now all I need this for is a box of shotgun shells. I'm going to try to put the MOLLE waist pack on the back, just because I have it and don't really want to waste it. We will see how that goes, if I can Jerry rig a way to get the suspenders attached still. Right now I imagine, going clockwise from 12, shell pouch, canteen pouch, waist pack, canteen pouch, IFAK, and compass pouch.

Thanks for all the input guys.


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It'll take a bit of adjustment, but it isn't a bad load bearing set-up. It can take some getting used to though. Once you have it all set, you will love it.

 

The USGI M1967 "Shorty" 20 round Magazine Pouches and usual 30 Round Magazine Pouches from 60s 70s & 80s are Great for these rigs ...

 

ALICE isn't bad, it's actually pretty damn good if you're on a budget. You just have to keep your load balanced, otherwise, it'll be uncomfortable.

 

I and my fellow troopers were fortunate to be in a PSYOP unit, where pretty much anything went....

Our 1st SGT and BN SGM, and BN Col, and many of our senior NCO's were 'Nam/Korea 'vets and did not give a damn for the most part...Our company CO was a by the book prick....we all know who actually ran the unit anyway... :

We had a mix of kit, both milspec and civvy, and all they really cared about was did it work, was is muted, was it as good as, or better than the issue kit, and would it jam us, or someone else up if they had to use/search it, etc...

We all knew the riggers too, and they made some pretty nify stuff for us too, all customized kit...nice folks to know....

I was happy with the LBE and ALICE rigs, no real issues, added more padding to shoulder straps/back brace, but other than that, not much else...

oh yeah, used a ****load of 550 to idiot proof stuff and 100mph tape on everything....

i think for the typical "Murikkan gun toter, the old LBE/ALICE kit will work just fine....

I suspect that if things go hot, there will be kit about as well....

 

the best thing I did to all my old alice gear, is change out all the buckles. Cobra style buckles .large and small. makes adjustment and unbutting the gear a snap. I found a local girl, she mainly does marine/boat tops, covers and seats, who as long as I get her the material will sew me up all the elastic tie bands i want. Just like tha old ones cept last longer. I had a hard time for a couple of years finding the issue surplus butt pack, tha dang imports would fall apart if ya actually used em, and Ive got her working on making me a custom set of pack straps, something you can change the pads on, cause i dont know about you, But the way i sweat, after about 10 days, skeeters wont even get near ya. I usually keep 3 to 4 sets, and change em out, so bout every 5 days i can give em a fluff and fold. on the H harness im running a M16G pouch one side,everything else as per the manual, ecept on the right side, I run a IDF 8 mag UZI pouch, carries everything else i need. thats the good thing about tha old harness rigs, you could mix and match em tha way ya want.

Ive tried a few other packs over the years, but I always came back to ALICE and yea, still got the entrenching tool and pouch, crookneck red flashlights by tha ton, compass pouch, Im kinda picky about the M16/grenade pouches, prefer the earlier ones, (canvas/cotton duck, Hate the later Nylons,(up to 67, 67 and later) and Im sure there are better rigs out there, But I always come back, because, in the in the field, you can do everything from ruck in a 5 gal jerry can using the alice pack frame and shelf , to repair a chewed up rig (replace what ya have to, patch tha rest) in 10 minutes or less.

the only thing i despised was the damn plastic buckles. unlike the earlier stuff, with the hook and strap, it was dang hard to fix a plastic buckle. that was my only gripe about tha whole system. and I still run a Full On Large Alice pack on frame, Girlchild has a Hellcat conversion on frame, and my short ruck is a sloppy Med Alice. Plus My H rigs. (does better on me with my challenges for weight distribution.) In fact, for her birthday this year, girlchild wants me to put together a Y rig for her, Like the BowBag I built for me.

and of course while i was digging for pics, I ran across a new bag to check out, Going to have to get my oldest to find me one in London, Made by Extremepack supposedly in the British Isles, I will have her dig one up and see where its made........ dont look bad though.

now, anyone need a copy of the original Alice system manual the"ALL-PURPOSE LIGHTWEIGHT INDIVIDUAL CARRYING EQUIPMENT (ALICE) manual, let me know, will burn you a copy of mine. everything you always wanted to know about Alice, but was afraid to ask.......

 

There's two vintages;
The designation for the older 4 strap ( H harness ) is M1956 Load Carrying Equipment ( LCE ) Not much padding but enough. Canvas construction it was designed to take the small arms case, three mags and two grenades (There's two sizes, 20 round and 30 round mags) E- tool case, dressing/compass case and the field pack also called a buttpack. That has straps on the bottom for a sleeping bag/ woobie or mat. ( I don't think I ever saw anyone actually carrying a sleeping bag like this ) There's also a couple of other packs available that will fit. The newer M1967 comes in H or Y configurations. Nylon too.

These harnesses were designed to be used with the canvas web belt. The field pack can clip to the belt or clip to the upper part of the harness at the shoulders.

You can hang all sorts of crap on these in any configuration you want. Yes there's better stuff out there but properly set up and balanced its pretty good gear and can be had cheep!:thumb: :

I still have and use my old ALICE pack. If you load it wrong it'll kill your shoulders. I have other packs that are better but I still like my alice.:thumb:

 

I said all that 3 times in this thread ,but thanx for elaborating ...:thumb:

 

dont feel bad, all ya have to do is show me a decent knife and i bounce off 180 from the direction i was going. lot like a dog chasein squirrels.....

 

My distractor is a Movie from the 1950s or early 60s with a Runabout with an outboard motor in a scene ...

 

There are different ways to configure. We ditched the canteens and made space for more mags or side arm. The camelback hydration replaced the canteens.

Some guys also had the spare pistol mags on the straps, you can do a number of different things.

 

R Jacobs,

you might consider using a BAR Belt, just don't get the ones with the metal hanger on

them. A buttpac will fit on the back side and as others have said, use a H Harness for

shoulder straps.

Jungle Work

 

I think I still have four or five of those kicking around. Pretty sure they are post ww1 but pre ww2 ones. Canvas- old gear and I still haven't figured out what I'll do with them, but they are packed away with all the LBE stuff.

I probably have 40 sets of suspenders, about the same in 1qt canteens and covers. Another 50 mag pouches but only about 10 belts. I hoard stuff like that.

 

IDF mag Pouches & Nam Era Camillus Pilots Survival Knife/sheath are also bits & pieces I use

 

Glad so many of you are confirming my instinct. I needed a rig and at first I looked at the current stuff. But the more I imagined using in under duress, the more I was convinced to go back to what I know. 5 years 11B and I know my LBE backwards and forwards. And the other thing I couldn't get over, how do you get prone and or low crawl in a chest rig? Nope LBE for me and I'm happy with it.


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Lots of experience wearing the stuff, I'd say get the H Harness over the Y any day. It's more stable on the belt, works better with the butt pack and there's another advantage. With the H harness and some blousing bands you can mount the poncho liner in a poncho on the cross strap. It also sets better when you remove the gear from your body and set it up on a chair or lay it back on the grass.

When I was enlisted, I had a great set up, if you mount a KaBar inverted on your weak hand side, shoulder strap, you can reach up, unsnap it and draw it in one quick motion. Just 100 mph tape or use blousing bands to put the 1st aide pouch over that. with most old ALICE 1st Aide/compass pouches, you can put a loaded 20 round M16 magazine in it. We use to modify and make gear...I think, and I'm thinking way, way back, that it was a 1st aide pouch that I used to make a Raven MP-25 holster that when in the field a lot and shouldn't have been there. Use some 550 cord or cable ties in place of the ALICE clips. Toward the end of me wearing my ALICE gear I replaced all ALICE clips with cable ties or flex cuffs.

We use to have a field set and an inspection set. Grunts used 4 magazine pouches, two on each side. Often they cut off the grenade loops on the inside so they set well together. That mean they could carry 13 magazines.

On a long patrol, you can rest set your arms on the magazine pouches if fits your build. When things go tactical, we usually opened the pistol belt when taking a prone position so the magazines would get out of the way.

Two canteen pouches, two canteens and two canteen cups balances a whole lot better than one. Remove your canteen in the canteen cup if you are going to set it down. You don't want to put the dirty bottom in your clean canteen cup.

You'll seldom get the little glass bottles with the water purification pills, but if you do, DO NOT put them in the stupid little pouch on the canteen carrier. They will bump things. Put a P-38 in there so you'll always have one, and have a P-38 on your dog tags and one on your key chain. You'll be giving away some before the field problem is done.

You don't want a pistol belt super tight, but everything on the belt should be tight to it. We use to tape the snaps. I never lost TA-50.

In my butt pack I carried a candle lantern wrapped up in a GI sleep shirt. The sleep shirt is a wonderful thing, you wear it under your BDU shirt as another layer. I also kept a can of Nally's chili and some granola bars in there.

The butt pack is bad for riding in and especially driving in vehicles, so I ditched it and put the stuff in a helmet bag once I became an Officer and we drove everywhere enough times.

I use to be pretty dang confident with the butt pack set up...even went out in the woods for fun with hit. It was workable in a lot of climates.

 

Glad so many of you are confirming my instinct. I needed a rig and at first I looked at the current stuff. But the more I imagined using in under duress, the more I was convinced to go back to what I know. 5 years 11B and I know my LBE backwards and forwards. And the other thing I couldn't get over, how do you get prone and or low crawl in a chest rig? Nope LBE for me and I'm happy with it.


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I ended up getting a Condor battle belt to go over the pistol belt simply because of the sheer availability of updates. But the suspenders and belt are doing perfect. Thanks everyone.


"When time shall count from the date
That the Saxon began to hate."

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