I dont know about ballistics or velocity or anything like that but i can tell you a few facts.

1. The AK-47 has killed more humans then any machine ever devised by man.
2. I does so in the most cheap and reliable way.
3. The US Armed Forces are the most well protected army in the world. Yet over a 1000 service members have fallen to this killing machine.
4. In modern warfare the 7.62x39 has killed more Americans then any other weapon.
5. I've personally seen the affects of a 7.62x39 and a 5.56 on a human body. If i had to choose i would take the 5.56. The wounds are cleaner and easier to dress.

Also dont be surprised if this gets moved to the firearms section. The forum nazis are about.

 

..... The AK-47 has killed more humans then any machine ever devised by man.......

Not arguing the point ( in fact, I'm a big AK fan:thumb: ) but this factoid is likely accurate simply because the AK is the most produced and most used assault/battle rifle in history, not necessarilly due to the round's ballistic efficiency. And by the same reasoning, it is also just as likely it's the rifle/round that has produced the most NON-fatal gunshot wounds.
Which, of course, still doesn't prove or disprove the lethality of the round, but interesting,nonetheless.

 

Thanks Urban.
Ponts 1-4 are based on sheer numbers though. Point 5 is interesting, and I've seen this myself too, lending credence to the ballistics tests.

 

ive had a few tests with my SKS and its superb Round

Everything i shot ended up not moving that much it went thru with speed and accuracy not much damage until i used a hollow point ..now that was different

the first time we shot it we noticed it went thru the target and ripped up our backyard lawn for 10 feet or more i was like woah! it kept going for a while.

so we shoot at a hill of dirt so no accidents happen. Goes thru concrete like a knife thru butter i love it wouldnt want to get hit then my buddy get hit then his friend.. i mean it keeps going thru regardless.

im sorry but i wont even start on .223 not worth talking about.

 

What brand was the hollowpoint, Kroenen? Wolf? Did it still have good penetration, and what do you reckon was the expansion %?

 

Yeah it was Wolf and at the time it was expensive.. i got it because i didnt realize till my first tests that i could kill someone accidentally if i wasnt choosing the right bullets.. ( it didnt dawn on my like pistol ammo did) then again ill use the regular stuff for big groups of baddies. the expansion was massive to the point of over kill in my opinion .. what im saying is i wouldnt use it in hunting because you wouldnt have much meat left haha.

 

I've shot 7.62 x 39 hollow points into targets, then dug what remains of the rounds from out of the dirt. There was nothing left except little jagged pieces of copper jacket and little crumbs of lead. They were old Russian surplus ammo. Most modern military ammo is intended to wound, not kill. It's takes several men out of the fight to take care of their comrades.

 

If you are worried about penetration without damage do a Dutch load: one fmj, one soft point. You can make your own "soft points" by sawing off the pointed tip of a milsurp round and the putting a shallow cross in the now flat tip. I shot a old can of paint with such a home made round. The entry hole was elongated like a key hole and the exit whole....well there was no exit hole because the entire back of the paint can was opened up like a metal flower.

I used an electric jigsaw to cut off the tip and make the cross while the round was in a table vice. Use a rag, folded a few times to hold the round and don't over tighten. You can do a box of 20 rounds in under 5 minutes.

I love Dutch loads because with one magazine you can take care of most situations. You can reach out and touch a bad guy behind a brick wall and put a shoe size hole in his buddy who's in the open. You might have to put two rounds in each target but that's a small price to pay and I would do that anyway.

 

You can make your own "soft points" by sawing off the pointed tip of a milsurp round and the putting a shallow cross in the now flat tip.

Not to sound too much like a jerk, but that's an extremely irresponsible thing to suggest!

Bullets have to have one end of their jacket sealed for safety. For example, in a hollow point or soft point, the front of the jacket is open, but the rear is sealed. In a FMJ, the front of the jacket is sealed, but the rear is open. When you cut off the tip of a FMJ, you're creating an opening at each end. That can easily lead to the core being blown out of the jacket, leaving the jacket behind in the barrel as an obstruction. The next round fired meets this bore obstruction and the result is a catastrophic failure than can seriously injure or kill the shooter.

 

Txtstew, the gradual density of dirt as a backstop can't be used as a clinical litmus test for lethality. You need to look at entry, wound chanel, fragmentation and exit in something that parallel's a torso. That's why I use 3 phonebooks with scraps of nylon cutting board to simulate flesh/bone, though slightly more dense. Yes, I'm familiar with the theory of wound vs kill in modern warfare, never the less, the yaw and fragmentation of 5.56 on unarmoured targets is still devastating and highly lethal. Compared to this, the 7.62X39 wound channel and exit wound look like a cause for concern in it's lack of effectiveness.

@Declan. Thanks, great advice. Some questions; any safety issues with Dutch loads? Can you stagger them in a mag with regular rounds, or will there be feeding/safety concerns? Have you ever had any issues sending a whole mag of Dutch loads down range? How much of the tip should I remove?

 

A Dutch load is staggering a hollow point and a fmj, untill the mag is full. I wouldn't take off more than 1/16 from the tip. If your rifle will ramp and load a soft point round it will load a home made soft point round.

There are no safety issues with dutch loading your mags. Serious operators do it for versatility, with great results. I also Dutch load my pistol and when I camp in the wilderness, I do the same with my shotgun. One slug, one 00 Buck...till the gun is full.

 

heh i do the same thing with my .22 lead headed rnds after i saw a movie about hunting bears .. although i dont have a vice.. it would save my finger from getting mauled by my knife when making X 's hahah and the modification to my current bullets will be a big money saver! thanks Declan.

 

I've done some reading on the soviet 7.62, and personal tests on the range and am concerned about it's lethality.

Ok, you go stand over yonder 100m away with a telephone book held out in front of you, I'll shoot at the telephone book with my Saiga (loaded with mil-surp ammo in question), then afterwards we can have a disussion about your concerns about "lethality". :
... No?

No wanting to be rude but I'm often sitting here with a bemused grin reading posts on what degree of dead a certain round is going to make something. heh-heh.

 

I've seen several people shot with x39 in the torso that lived.

 

Ive seen several people shot in the torso with a .22 that died. Location Location Location.

 

i have a question since we have a few smarties in here.. if i shoot a round off and it makes a irregular sound.. and the casing of the bullet is cracked what does that mean?

 

If the brass case is cracked in the neck area this indicates brittle brass or an over sized chamber.

If the case is cracked just ahead of the rim then that indicates excess headspace, meaning that there is too much clearance between the face of the bolt and the cartridge head. This is a dangerous condition. If you believe you have excessive headspace, don't fire the gun until you can have a gunsmith inspect it.

If the report of the round going off sounds different be sure and check to make sure the bullet is not stuck in the barrel.

 

Spend less time being bemused and more time reading please, Ratbag. I had a disclaimer about 'try getting hit by one' remarks.
To the topic, I remember MCDoberman going over his gsw which I think was 7.62. The round penetrated a wall, then into Doberman and out the center of his back with almost no deformity. He described that he was still lucid and cohate enough to remain calm, despite a center mass hit, and talk his friends through looking after him. Doberman, if you read this thread feel free to comment/correct.

 

In all honesty, I think that cases where the 7.62x39 round makes survivable wounds are aberations...flukes...exceptions to the rule.

In 95% of cases a .22 round c.o m. wound will be fatal and a 7.62x39, in 99.9% of cases. The fact that it will shoot through just about anything is simply gravy.

 

The military uses ball and steel core for maximum penetration intentinally. Hunting rounds (hollowpoints and soft points) are not best to shoot into jeeps, helicopters, thru sandbags, bullet resistant vests, backpacks, and helmets. Steel core, FMJ, ball, penetrators and AP are more for hardened targets found in the battle field.

So the general rule is: If your target has no armor, not in a vehicle, no equipment, not hiding behind a wall, tree, sandbag(etc.), a hollowpoint could do more damage. But if any of these are encountered, a more penetrating round increases your odds of a vital organ hit. This is why military uses fmj with penetrating core.

 

I load mine with Wolf 154 gr SP and 124 HP.

My understanding is that the SP expand. The Wolf HP tumble when they hit rather than expand. Both are deadly.

 

I'm assuming the mil surp rounds you were using were FMJs. An FMJ is not supposed to expand so that may have been a factor. Try a few different rounds such as hollow points (not much penetration though) or better yet the soft point bullets. If the -06 round you fired was a hunting round it wasn't really a fair comparison. Hunting rounds are made to kill and cause massive damage while NATO rounds are really only designed to wound. Still, I think the 7.62 does a lot more damage than the 5.56, but some of you AR guys might disagree. I was watching the first 48 the other day and one of the detectives was talking about the 7.62 and how the bodies they are finding are just shredded to pieces. You should try a few different rounds in ballistic gel if you can get your hands on some.

 

Here is 7.62x39 ammunition suggestions from a very scientific point of view from ar15.com

7.62x39

Lapua 125gr JSP

Winchester Super-X 123 gr Power-Point (X76239)

Both loads show good terminal performance in bare gel and through car windows.

The recent loading of the 124gr Wolf "Military Classic" HP shows promising performance. This ammo is made by Ulyanovsk using their 8M3 bullet, and has been shown to fragment in several tests:
7.62x39mm Sapsan 124 gr JHP (Ulyanovsk Machinery Plant) from 16” AKMS
BG: vel=2297 f/s, pen=15.0”, Max TC=10cm@18cm, RD=0.63”, RW=100.5gr

FORE MORE INFORMATION ON THE WOUNDING EFFECTS OF RUSSIAN RIFLE CALIBERS, PLEASE READ THIS POST.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm this has all kinds of information on which round from each caliber is the "most" lethal

I am suprised no one else knows about this helpful web page?

 

Firing into soft tissue and into hard mediums like phone books, wood, dirt, etc., give VERY different results. FMJ anything isn't the best idea in my book, but expanding bullets increase the effectiveness. With the right ammo choice, it's quite an effective little round.

 

Try some of the Yugo FMJ ammo. It has a lead core flat base bullet and a deep canueular, which in ballistic tests causes the bullet to seperate and cause two wound tracks, very simular to the old 5.56 55gr bullets when fired from the old M16's and the 1 in 12 twist.

 

Expansion has several factors than just the bullet. What is the shear tension of the outter skin of your target? A thin skined animal will cause less expansion at sub optimal velocities in rifle bullets. A animal with thick skin or clothing will create more expansion.

Virtually anything wolf does not expand. The wolf 154gr just widens out the tip, possible causing more hydraulic shock because of the fattened tip. But, the tip does not expand more than 1/4" or so, definitely not more than .311". Wolf hollow points are useless. That hole is too small, If anything I saw the tip crush in rather than open like a flower. I have never done this, but putting a few deep scrathes in the pointed tip may help it open up. Similar to those 38 and 44 hollow point rounds.

Only thing than expands a darn has been my handloads. Really just used hornady heads with the plastic ballistic tips. They make roughly a bit bigger than 1/2" hole in a wet phone book. Hornady sell these loaded for about 30 bucks per 50. Perfect for hunting.

I am towards the impression that the lead used is a bit harder than typical hunting softpoints too, which will prevent expansion in the wolf lines.

Best cheapie for expansion I am told is the brown bear soft points. Some more serious hog hunters have handloaded with handcast loads. That seems to do well.

I choose the 7.62x39 because I can not afford a 5 billion dollar defecit in my operation. Gun is a gun is a gun. Reliability is over any other trait. Affordability trump many things due to more practice. SKS reliable, 7.62x39 cheap. IF it's more than 200 away, it's not bothering me. My area doesn't need that kind of range.

 

.

Virtually anything wolf does not expand. The wolf 154gr just widens out the tip, possible causing more hydraulic shock because of the fattened tip. But, the tip does not expand more than 1/4" or so, definitely not more than .311". Wolf hollow points are useless. That hole is too small, If anything I saw the tip crush in rather than open like a flower.

http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=76&p=388822


http://www.brassfetcher.com/7.62x39mm Wolf 154gr Soft Point.html


Just pointing to some tests.

This would also be a very nast little round

http://www.brassfetcher.com/D&S Manufacturing 123gr Hornady V-Max.html



"and most modern FMJ ammunition sold today features improved tumbling or fragmentation variants of the M67 bullet, such as the rebranded Ulyanovsk produced 7.62x39-8m2 and 8m3 "effect" typically sold in sealed metal cans."

 

Anybody know if the green tip (steel core) 223 ammo is still around?

 

You can stil lfind ss109...why you'd want It, I'm not sure...

 

I my testing, Wolf Fmj, both 122 grain and 124 grain has tubled and yawed rather meanly.


Read up ont he difference between the m43 and m67. Wolf uses an m67 type.

 

Ive seen bullets do some weird stuff. You can look at ballistic charts all day long but ive seen x39 rounds hit people in the shoulder and come out there right ass check. Ive seen a SAPI plate stop 3 rounds and the guy next to hims plate stop none. Once the bullet leaves the barrel that damn thing can do anything. A thousand different forces influence that bullet. Crazy crazy.

 

The human body is packed really tight. The likelihood of a round passing through and not smacking a vital organ (or at least a debilitating body part/organ) is very small. It happens, but it's not a big concern of mine.

In 1989 a colleague of mine took a stray 7.62x39 in the neck from at least 500 yards. Died pretty much instantly, without as much as lifting his hands to the wound.