Never used 4116 Krupp myself. And I'm not sure if its any good. Anyone have any expierience with it?
Ferrari
Exist three type of 420 (like 440). 420A, 420B and 420C.
Like 440, for the 420 series the carbon content increse to A at C.
420A have 0,16-0,25% of C. Another designation is W.Nr 1.4021 or UNI X20Cr13.
420B have 0,26-0,35% of C. Another designations is W.Nr 1.4028 or UNI X30Cr13.
420C have a carbin contenet of 0,36-0,45%, and another designation is W.Nr 1.4034.
W. Nr 1.4116 is a 420C modified, like 420HC or 420M. The commercial name of W.Nr 1.4116 is MA5MV (or MA5M), product by Uginox.
Hello.
Like 440, for the 420 series the carbon content increse to A at C.
420A have 0,16-0,25% of C. Another designation is W.Nr 1.4021 or UNI X20Cr13.
420B have 0,26-0,35% of C. Another designations is W.Nr 1.4028 or UNI X30Cr13.
420C have a carbin contenet of 0,36-0,45%, and another designation is W.Nr 1.4034.
W. Nr 1.4116 is a 420C modified, like 420HC or 420M. The commercial name of W.Nr 1.4116 is MA5MV (or MA5M), product by Uginox.
Hello.
W.Nr 1.4116 (MA5M), 420HC and other 420C modified steels are godd steels for knives.
A lot of people think that 420 is a bad steel, with low edge retention, and think that the 420 Modified are like the common 420.
But a lot of the cheap knives on "420 steel" are made on 420B (some on 420C) and the heat treatments are not good :headshake.
420HC or MA5M have a good edge retention (in any case better than 440C) and very good toughness (for a inoxsidable martensitic steel) and corrosion resistance (when the heat treatment is good).
Hello.
A lot of people think that 420 is a bad steel, with low edge retention, and think that the 420 Modified are like the common 420.
But a lot of the cheap knives on "420 steel" are made on 420B (some on 420C) and the heat treatments are not good :headshake.
420HC or MA5M have a good edge retention (in any case better than 440C) and very good toughness (for a inoxsidable martensitic steel) and corrosion resistance (when the heat treatment is good).
Hello.
The Frost Mora and a lot of scandinavian knives (pukko) are on 420C (or 420C modified) and they are very appreciated by user.
But why 420C and 420C modified have a better edge retention than other steel with more carbon contenet like 440B or 440C?
Is simple.
First, because the 420C and variants have a minor amount, before quenching, of retained austenite. This is due to the minor contenet of C and Cr (and other alloing elements) than decrease the temperature of start and finish martesnite trasformation (Ms, Martensite Start, and Mf, martensite finish). Mf for the high alloy steel is under 0°C, and before quenching remain a certain amount of retained austenite (a soft structure of steel and iron).
Retained austenite can be transformed on martensite with sub zero treatment, cryogenic treatment or with a multiple tempering at the secondary hardening temperature.
For 440 series (A, B and C) and 420 series the last treatment is not possible for some reasons.
Second. The 420C have less chromium and carbon than 440C. But we have to see the Fe-Cr-C diagram for understand what does this difference of composition.
This is the Fe-Cr-C diagram for 12% of chrome.
![Image]()
We can see that for 0,5% of C (the carbon contenet of 420C and variants) and 12% of chrome (420C and variants contain 12-14% of Cr) is possible the complete austenization of the steel at temperature over 1000°C.
For a steel with the 18 of chorme (the 440 series have a contenet of Cr on the range of 16-17%, but i don't have the Fe-Cr-C diagrams for this percentage of chromium) is impossible the complete austenization of steel.
![Image]()
A good quantity of carbon of 440C hence form carbide, primarily chrome carbide.
But chrome carbide decrese the edge retentionand edge durability, because increse the "irregularity" of the edge (is more rougt). Is for this reason than the 420C have a better corrosion resistance than 440C. Because, although 420C have less chromium, it have a more quantity of free chromium.
Is free chromium than form a protectiv passive oxide (tranfarent) on the surface of steel.
For this reasons 420C and 420C modified (W.Nr 1.4116, 420HC, 420M) have a better edge retention and corrosion resistence than other steel with more carbon and cromium contenet (like 440B or 440C).
Hello.
But why 420C and 420C modified have a better edge retention than other steel with more carbon contenet like 440B or 440C?
Is simple.
First, because the 420C and variants have a minor amount, before quenching, of retained austenite. This is due to the minor contenet of C and Cr (and other alloing elements) than decrease the temperature of start and finish martesnite trasformation (Ms, Martensite Start, and Mf, martensite finish). Mf for the high alloy steel is under 0°C, and before quenching remain a certain amount of retained austenite (a soft structure of steel and iron).
Retained austenite can be transformed on martensite with sub zero treatment, cryogenic treatment or with a multiple tempering at the secondary hardening temperature.
For 440 series (A, B and C) and 420 series the last treatment is not possible for some reasons.
Second. The 420C have less chromium and carbon than 440C. But we have to see the Fe-Cr-C diagram for understand what does this difference of composition.
This is the Fe-Cr-C diagram for 12% of chrome.
We can see that for 0,5% of C (the carbon contenet of 420C and variants) and 12% of chrome (420C and variants contain 12-14% of Cr) is possible the complete austenization of the steel at temperature over 1000°C.
For a steel with the 18 of chorme (the 440 series have a contenet of Cr on the range of 16-17%, but i don't have the Fe-Cr-C diagrams for this percentage of chromium) is impossible the complete austenization of steel.
A good quantity of carbon of 440C hence form carbide, primarily chrome carbide.
But chrome carbide decrese the edge retentionand edge durability, because increse the "irregularity" of the edge (is more rougt). Is for this reason than the 420C have a better corrosion resistance than 440C. Because, although 420C have less chromium, it have a more quantity of free chromium.
Is free chromium than form a protectiv passive oxide (tranfarent) on the surface of steel.
For this reasons 420C and 420C modified (W.Nr 1.4116, 420HC, 420M) have a better edge retention and corrosion resistence than other steel with more carbon and cromium contenet (like 440B or 440C).
Hello.
Hi Templar, Many thanks for that detailed and professional information. Looks like you are in the metalurgy field.
Thanks
Paul
Thanks
Paul
1.4116 , I have used a PUMA RATTLER with this steel, it's a lot better than you may think! I am a "steel snob", er, "CARBON steel snob", but I gotta say, the 1.4116, surprised me, gets sharp, holds an edge pretty long, this is on gritty cardboard shipping boxes, not bad, bought a few more of the PUMA rattler, python, (the best 2 IMO) and the cobra. The steel is good, beats 440C, AND 420 too. N690 Bohler steel is freaky sharp, surprised even me, it's described as a 440C clone, not hardly, it acts like carbon steel, and cuts like it too. Oh, jeez, there I go praising stainless steel, darn it, gotta remeber NOT to do that, what will people think. OK,SOME stainless is good, or great, like 12C27 and it's "relatives"---13C27, 14C28, etc., etc. Any SANDVIK stainless or not, but I STAY AWAY FROM the new hard to sharpen stuff, like ats-34, 440C, even the SUPER steels are too hard, stick to 55-58 or 59 Rockwell, and you'll do fine and be happy.
Alot of People get all over 1.4116 krupp as "crap" and call it cheap kitchen steel, sure alot of Chef knives are made from it, but they need edge retention just as much as everyone else and good stain resistance. And Alot of Hunting and Tactical Knives are made with 1.4116, the CRKT Ultima is made from it And I love that knife the steel holds a great edge it sharpens esily enough when you do need to touch it up and I never worry about rust, even with CRKTs beadblast finish.
1.4116 isnt "cheap stainless" it is alot like 420HC, so comperable to 440C in alot of ways, it may not have quite the edge retention of 440C/54cm/ATS34 but its more impact reistant and wont chip or plain break as easily. All said and done 1.4116 is certainly better on paper than 440B/AUS-8A/8cr13mov.
I love 8cr13mov it is a fantastic low cost steel that performs any EDC task that Ive ever thrown at it, it can take a great edge and hold it reasonably well and will take a high grit mirror polish.
So if 1.4116 has a better set of specs than AUS-8A, and 8cr13mov two popular blade steels, and I think most people would agree two pretty decent steels for lower cost knives. We certainly cant get on a company or a particular knife for actually using an upgraded steel because it has a "kitchen steel" stigma attatched to it
1.4116 isnt "cheap stainless" it is alot like 420HC, so comperable to 440C in alot of ways, it may not have quite the edge retention of 440C/54cm/ATS34 but its more impact reistant and wont chip or plain break as easily. All said and done 1.4116 is certainly better on paper than 440B/AUS-8A/8cr13mov.
I love 8cr13mov it is a fantastic low cost steel that performs any EDC task that Ive ever thrown at it, it can take a great edge and hold it reasonably well and will take a high grit mirror polish.
So if 1.4116 has a better set of specs than AUS-8A, and 8cr13mov two popular blade steels, and I think most people would agree two pretty decent steels for lower cost knives. We certainly cant get on a company or a particular knife for actually using an upgraded steel because it has a "kitchen steel" stigma attatched to it
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