I hope you are patient.

A 22l can do lots of harm.

 

Yes it can, and if you load it with stingers, it really has a punch to it.

 

High velocity frangible bullets, designed for shooting tiny pests, aren't the best choice for a sub caliber like .22 lr.

There is no guarantees but there are studies showing the percentages of one shot incapacitation using various calibers of ammunition.

No......there really aren't. There are some fictional "studies", long ago proven to be frauds, but nothing scientific.

The entire idea of "one shot stops" is really a false concept. Without taking into account what was hit, and the mindset and physical condition of the subject shot, there is no way to quantify by caliber their relative effectiveness. Some individuals will immediately stop their actions by a hit in the abdomen with a .22. Others will take multiple mortal wounds with large caliber pistols, and continue fighting until loss of blood ceases their brain function.

What we do know, is that bullets that strike important things in a body, and damage them sufficiently, tend to make individuals cease their actions faster than those that don't. So pistol bullets that penetrate deep enough to reach vital organs, and expand enough to cause great damage, appear to be the best choice.

To the subject of the thread, as a cop, I saw quite a few homicide victims killed with .22's. When I first started, it was probably the most common caliber used in shootings. Sometimes they died virtually instantaneously. I also responded to calls where I conversed with subjects that had been shot with a .22, and showed little outward signs of distress. Others that drove themselves to the hospital. And yes, I mean I saw these things multiple times. I never saw that with anyone shot with larger caliber handguns (.38 and up). While they might not have been "stopped" by the wound, they were definitely seriously affected by it.

So a .22 can certainly be used for self defense. I would use one gladly, if that was all I had. For some, it may even be the best choice. But if a bigger caliber is an viable option, I thinks it's a better choice.

 

Not about self-defense, but some real-world info in my thread, "This Just In:", posted about Three Weeks ago -

Against a Mastiff intent on Killing My Chickens, it is clear that a .22lr would take many Shots and a while to kill a Man-Sized Being, barring Perfect Shot Placement.

 

It's about "stopping" not "killing"

That said, the 22lr is at the bottom end of self defense calibers

Put the odds in your favor....whatever that is!

Are you gonna use a pocket screwdriver to take apart a metal building?


Let's see

Your about to be raped or even killed and you are gonna depend on shot placement to save your ass

Not me

At least if I miss with a magnum, I'll be smelling burnt hair!

 

Roger that!!! A mortal wound DOESNT always incapacitate either

 

Again. There are many factual stories when 22lr stopped a bad guy, but the critics just say it sucks and offer no factual proof when it failed the victim.

 

Maybe this will help you



http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

Read the column on one shot stop %

 

It's not IF 22LR can kill someone in a self defense situation, but it's how FAST it will kill someone.

Even with most common centerfire handgun calibers,380/9mm/40/357/45, the chance of surviving ( with modern medical care ) is about 80%.

Someone in a self defense situation can remain a threat for a LONG time after being shot.

 

I suspect the inadequacy of the 22lr is more rooted in ammo reliability to fire and feed, and bullet expansion. Couple all that with a low energy out of a pistol (~100-200 ft/lbs) and shot placement is critical. Under stress that complicates things further.

I don't know that you will find much rimfire data as most people are probably smart enough not to use them for self defense. Not because they won't kill things, but because they may not kill things faster than a bigger bullet when seconds count, as pointed out above.

If there ever was a pocket sized gun that shot 10 rds of 000 Buckshot, I guarantee it would sell.

 

If there ever was a pocket sized gun that shot 10 rds of 000 Buckshot, I guarantee it would sell.

http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=877&category=Revolver&toggle=&breadcrumbseries=

 

Are there "better" calibers then a lowly 22lr? Absolutely, Yes! I totally agree with that.

But I have looked left and right, high and low, and I could not find any evidence of anyone using a 22lr weapon and failing to protect their lives or property just because their weapon happened to be inadequate.

So if anyone has any true story, please do share.

 

See i would go the other way and find a victim that defended themselves from a. 22 attack. I just think that would be easier to find.

 

.22CAL has the ability to KILL even at range unless your shooting ability SUCKS?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUM1r_444CY

 

Thanks. I know it can kill. I am looking for an evidence of a failure to stop a perpetrator just because it happened to be inadequate.

 

I tried 'Googling' for cases where a criminal subsequently killed the victim, or the criminal continue the attack after being shot.

But cases of determined criminals who continued an attack after being fired upon (insane or otherwise) is rare. Also it is not likely the news will cover a dead victim who wounded his attacker escaped.

But, I believe it is possible that the downside of using a 22lr for self defense has been overstated. But the advantages of using other calibers are well documented.

Let's just say "the jury is still out" pending the results of a study identifying the percentage of attackers not stop by a 22lr vs. other calibers.

 

This biggest problem with rimfire bullets is a possible misfire. In a semiautomatic, a misfire would be fatal!

 

Agree on that one. I have a Bersa Thunder 22, and one of my "name brand IE Remington, CCI" had not fired. I turned it around and tried again. Still no fire, but 2 pinches on the rim from the firing pin. I continued to turn this bullet around until I had about 8 firing pin marks on it and I either kept it for a souvenir, or tossed it. But, no matter how good the firing pin indent, it was not going off. I even tried it in another .22, a rifle and still no go.

These are rare. Rare enough that given any unusual circumstance, you would normally, in a self defense situation, see the .22 LR go BANG. Even if it doesn't go bang, the criminal may flee before the trigger is even pulled. He's not really checking barrel diameter at that point.

 

We had a Local LEA was killed by a 22.

 

Question is....... If you were a criminal, what would you rather get hit with? A 22lr that has 50psi or a bigger round at around 350 to 500psi of muzzle energy?

 

A better question is: What percentage of attackers (outside of a military combat environment) will continue to attack after being fired upon?

Plus, i don't think many attackers will consider the type of rounds or caliber while being fired upon, or at least at the moment while they are under fire.

 

.22 will kill Period. The debate is moot. The video below was shown in my academy class many years ago and I show it in my training classes today. Trooper Cotes discharged 5 rounds of .357 mag into the perpetrators chest and he survived. Trooper Coates received 2 rounds from a .22 handgun 1 stopped by vest the other fatal. Bullets do strange things in a human body all of which are dependent upon many variables. Is .22 the best option? Probably not. But it has its place, and is a lot more comfortablein my pocket in Louisiana in July than my full size 10mm pressed against my side trying to conceal.

https://youtu.be/2FraE77l4fI

 

Is .22 the best option? Probably not. But it has its place, and is a lot more comfortablein my pocket in Louisiana in July than my full size 10mm pressed against my side trying to conceal.]

That point is moot also since most 22 pistols are the same size of bigger that a sub compact 9mm

 

I've met 3 guys who were hit with a 22LR. Two say they never, ever, ever want to be shot with one again. It was terribly painful and debilitating. Seemed like both were shot in the leg and said they could not or barely walk, because it was so painful.

Another guy was shot between the eyes with a 22LR. He has a dent in his head. I think it stopped an assault, between two drunks. I don't think it effected him that much, but he a crazy SOB. He was a little guy. I think a 22LR was what he carried after that.

I'm sure you can't stop a determined hyped up dude(s) who intends to kill you, or he may try to kill you after being shot, with your 22. I have one as a hidden back up and quick grab plinkster.

 

having a gun that you dont know and dont carry sucks for defense. if a caliber is too loud, recoils too much, is too expensive or is too heavy so you dont practice with it or dont carry it, 22lr starts to look very attractive.

 

Yes, if you get real lucky with a .22 you may stop a determined attacker quickly. The trouble is that the impact zones that will do it are the size of a tennis ball or smaller, and are moving at the time. Can you hit that under stress? Show me.

I learned early on that a .22 won't even stop a woodchuck unless you make a good head shot. Fifty years later, nothing has changed.

In the 19th century medical care was such that a man shot with a .22 SHORT might die in a few days of infection. If he was gutshot, it would be several days of extreme pain from peritonitis. Bad guys knew it, so even .22 short derringers had serious deterrence value. Today not so much, especially if the perp is hopped up on bath salts or crack.

 

I have always considered the 22 rifle to be better than nothing in a defensive situation. Even a very small, weak person can hold, point like a broomstick and shoot a 22 rifle. The low recoil helps keep the rifle on target. This shooter can pump out 15-18 rounds as fast as they can pull the trigger. When the gun stops firing it will then be used as a club. Ive never seen a 22 rile with a bayonette on it but why not?

 

An older story but there was a female can driver that let her fair ride up front. Pretty common down here. Guy tried to Rob and assault her. She managed to empty a 25 caliber pocket pistol into his chest cavity. By the time the guy lost consciousness he had taken the pistol and was dry firing it against her head. Fortunately she had emptied it. Not a 22 but addresses fire power.

Like wise someone hit a small almost fawn sized deer with a vehicle when I was a LEO. Deer was in a ditch injured. I put 3 rounds of forty into it's chest cavity and it was still flailing. Wasn't till I put a 40 in it's brain that it died. Shot placement is important. It ain't Hollywood. A shot to the chest cavity can still leave a bad guy time to fight. Practice double taps or 2 to the chest one to the head drills. My 2 cents.

 

22 sucks?

OK I tell you what let me shoot you twice with a 22, then you can shoot me once with your choice. A 22 is better than nothing. Also with the rounds being smaller they take up less room. Also being how they are so cheap don't stop with one shot. Keep pulling the trigger until the threat is gone.Some people may not be able to handle the larger guns. With that being said, a bigger caliber would stop quicker, but to say a 22 is useless is a bad statement.

 

Now, for the weak, a .22LR could be considered as a shotgun - one pellet at a time. Sorta. Training my wife to start at the right (foe's left) hip and walk it up the body. She shoots well with time to aim. 25 rd magazines + Ruger 10-22. Well, it's better than an air gun...at a distance, better than bird shot, I think. Maybe. Just philosophizing - no facts were injured in the production of this rhetorical comment.......

 

When in New Brunswick Atlantic Salmon fishing every sept. ,I use the same old guide,.. he has trouble walking but he always gets it done.. a few years ago he had back surgery . His doctor forbade him from going moose hunting that fall as the recoil from your average "moose rifle " would be very bad for his newly repaired spine. But they need that moose to get thru the year up there .so he went out with a 22 lr rifle and with one shot , brought down an 800 Bull moose . he hit it in the brain and the moose did not take a single step once hit !!

in other news . it is my opinion that if some one was approaching me/my house will bad intentions and I shot him just once in the chest with a 22Lr , he would ALWAYS stop approaching .. If he didn't he'd be stupid or dead as the second round would be to the face ...That would end any conversations ,, just put yourself in that position and answer that question

 

The key is the BRAIN Shot. I know a living and breathing guy with a dent, in his forehead between his eyes, close range, 22LR.

Been in an altercation, where the bad guy reached for a Non-Existent pistol. It made me hesitate, enough for him to get away.

I have reached for an Existing pistol several times, each time, it was never pointed, or always seen, but the action repelled the bad guys 3 times. It was 45acp, but they didn't stick around to figure out it was Not a 22.

The "Hell-Bent" bad guy, requires a 25 round magazine blast or a larger caliber.

Plus, do you really want to be, in court as healthy Zimmerman VS wheel-chair bound Travon? One can argue, to truly defend you and your family, the bad guy must die. It is the reality and court system we live with.

 

Face shot works best with a 22.

 

Everyone should google and read this: An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power
Written by Greg Ellifritz. (Google the entire name as it Is released to the public for free)

This is an in depth study of handgun stopping power. This dispels the myths and uses facts gathered over decades. I am not starting the caliber war again but this study answers the OP question.

22 shows a fatality rate of 34%. incapacitated after 1.38 shots is better than 9mm and maybe more importantly 31% not incapacitated after shot.

 

.22 lr

Hi Red Neck, I hope you are kidding about your soul going to hell without redemption, because that is never the case until you are dead. Then it would be too late. As long as you are living and breathing, there is always redemption available. Forgiveness is there for anyone, no matter what they have done in their lives, you just have to ask and believe.