In a defensive situation, wouldn't Bird-shot be more effective than Slugs?

More effective? Never. A tighter pattern with small shot would be preferred if you had to use it in defense... but it would never be as effective as either slugs or buckshot at any range. Penetration is still the issue with using small shot... the smaller you go the less you get. That would probably be increased with a tighter pattern to some degree but it still wouldn't be on par with slug and buck.

Another problem encountered with this is that the 1200 fps is the muzzle velocity, and the light shot won't maintain that velocity for very long. At 75 yards I wouldn't be surprised to see the velocity drop to the 500 fps range... which would barely penetrate clothing and skin.

 

go watch the Mythbusters episode where they show a pizza box stopping a shotgun blast and and you will quickly forget that notion.

 

I didn't find the episode, but I did find the results and here's what they had to say:

3 pizza boxes in a warming bag are bulletproof.

PLAUSIBLE

Based on a story that a pizza delivery boy survived a shotgun blast by holding his warming bag in front of him, Adam and Jamie first fired birdshot at a warming bag containing three pizzas, and it stopped the all but six of the pellets. They then used buckshot which easily passed through the pizzas. To see how far the buckshot would penetrate, 5 warming bags, each containing 3 pizza boxes, were placed in front of the ballistics gel dummy. Buckshot was fired at it, and the shot made it all the way to pizza 14.

 

If you want defensive, go for buckshot, not bird shot.

 

In a word; NO.

Bird shot is for birds.

 

Little balls for little game, big balls for big game.

 

Anything can be done. This is an option for ya to think about. Cut shells

 

why does this youtube video keep popping up.

am i the only one that notices he says "3 inches of water penatration"
its not safe, its not effective, dont cut shells.

 

Amen. It MAY work thru a cylinder bore (no choke) barrel.
This is about as "smart" as firing a 45 Colt round thru a .410 bore shotgun.

 

only way bb shot will kill someone is if you shoot em en the abdoman at very close range it

most bird shot like 7-8 shot would not work you would need bb-5 cshot and close range

 

If you load up #4's or bigger and you plan on shooting less than 30' in a hallway or such and you are capable of quick followup shots AND you are worried about over penetration then you will be fine against most targets.

Where you will have issues is with people is heavy clothing, if they have cover or if they are particularly determined/drugged up. Even then, if you have a good pump gun, they can be as determined as they want, it won't help them.

Steel shot also penetrates better than lead at close range. It does not seem like it would but we found this to be true on geese at least. Lead deforms and gets caught up on the feathers with steel going right through with no issues. Steel is not good for longer ranges however up close it needs a better look.

 

I used a rifle indoors in Iraq, and prefer it over a shotgun. I considered getting a shotgun, but it has too many drawbacks associated with it. High recoil, heavy weapon, heavy ammo, low ammo capacity. The fight may go outside, so if I hear a noise in the night, my long gun is an M4gery. The rifle may have less "stopping power" than a shotgun, but I never saw anyone in my unit that had trouble putting people down with one.

I have been over and over it with myself, and I cannot justify getting a shotgun for any reason. I am tall and fairly light, so I won't be carrying 2 long guns if I have to bug out anyways, and as I mentioned, I'd prefer a rifle or handgun for home defense.

I am not trying to knock shotguns, they are great weapons, and have a lot going for them, but they are not for me. I do shoot my friend's shotguns, just to stay in practice with the weapon, but I don't personally care to own one.

 

zombies man you need a shotgun for zombies

 

Covering a paper target with tiny holes is different from stopping an attacker. Paper is pretty easy to put holes into. Lungs and hearts are a bit tougher and need heavier projectiles/bullets/shot. Bird shot simply does not have the mass to penetrate to human organs (it wasn't designed to).

"...only ONE of those BB's hitting a target would really ruin someone's day..." Ever get shot with a BB gun? Sure it hurt, but could you fight afterward? Same thing, the only way to SURELY stop someone is to stop him "permanently".

1. Bird shot is for birds.
2. Buck shot is for deer.
3. Fighting Guns are for humans.

 

When I was young, I had a 12 ga for home defense. As I learned more, I got a pistol and rifle.

 

If you want to screw up a good shotgun, and perhaps yourself in the process, shoot cut shotgun shells through them. Here is a chart showing the diameter of shotgun chokes at the muzzle.

Now take the gauge and choke size of your choice and measure the O.D. of a shotgun shell of the same gauge, and subtract the difference. That is what you are pushing through the choke, or muzzle of your shotgun. This is one of the most stupid, dangerous things I've seen done regardless of how many have gotten away with it.

Ever notice how the people who demonstrate doing these things aren't exactly the same people you would connect to a six figure job at Boeing or IBM? Bill T.

 

75 yards is long way for a shotgun ( well not slugs)

that said since most people really hate to be shot with anything I bet it would keep 90% of the mutant zombie bikers consider going someplace else

once you get to 5 - 7 yards I'd suspect the hombre's that will take a load and keep coming are few and far between

Is buck shot better - sure - is something along the lines of heavy bird shot good enough seems to me yes


remember it's a shotgun on a plazmum death ray, then again an AR15 is just a rifle

 

Keep in mind the cutshell video does say its for modified chokes. I wouldn't try it through any other choke set up.

 

Bird shot is only really effective at extremely close range, where it's still so densely packed that it almost acts like a slug. As the cluster begins to expand, it loses that effectiveness simply because the pellets don't have the penetration necessary. Indoor home defense, maybe. At a distance, no way!

 

I know it would seem that way, and I actually used to think that way, but thats not how shot works. I studied interior, exterior and terminal ballistics a lot. Something I learned was that with shot, no matter how tightly packed it is, you can only consider each individual pellet when it comes to penetration. Think of it as many individual tiny wound tracks all side by side, but none of them make any others go any deeper. The person you shoot very well may die from the wound... 2 weeks later... from sepsis. If he is trying to do you or your family harm, you need him down and out immediatly, not some time later in the hospital.

As others have said, bird shot is for birds. #1 buck is the only way to go for shotguns. Well, maybe not the ONLY way to go.... hehhehehe

dont matter
dont matter

BOTH!

 

I typically pattern my turkey gun out to 60-65 yards w/ 10-15 pellets in the kill zone(head and neck of a turkey)

so I believe you

At 5-10 yards the shot is much like a slug and is why I use it for indoor defense

First 3 are turkey loads and the next are 00 buck

anything from a shotgun is devastating at close range

Put away my Glock for home defense long ago/..........Flame on!!!!!!:

 

i prefer to bbq my rodents when they become a problem screw your shotty and glock

 

Seriously? I assume that whacking a ball with a bat tells you nothing about bashing a head?

I am sure that the data of shooting wood is not 100% accurate to shooting an intruder however you have to really like your stance to deny that it is eye opening.

 

Words cannot adequately express my opposition to using birdshot for defense purposes.
Yes, you got lots of little holes in the paper target. Now put up a piece of 3/4" plywood with a heavy truck innertube over it, or a stack of soaking wet phone books, and shoot at the same range and see what penetration you get.
Nope, birdshot will never be as good as slugs, or even buckshot.

 

Now put up a piece of 3/4" plywood with a heavy truck innertube over it, or a stack of soaking wet phone books, and shoot at the same range and see what penetration you get.

Wouldn't it be easier to simply shoot an intruder with the same load? He won't be going anywhere after you do. Shoot ANYTHING inside your living room with a 12 ga. with any load you happen to pick up. He won't going anywhere afterward except to the morgue. Bill T.

 

Not to many home defense situations where you have to shoot 75 yards inside your house. Not even 35 yards or 25 yards. The longest shot inside my house I could conceivably take would be 8 yards and 3 would be more likely. Everybody's home situation is different and I chose not to load slugs because I have family on the other sides of those walls. I don't even use a 12 gauge, my 20 is lighter, quicker to point and just as effective as long as my burglar isn't a body armor wearing gorilla.

At 10' my 20 gauge tosses a load of #6 shot through a 2x4 in a hole I can just barely stick my thumb through. This picture is a heavy Mepps bottle at 8 yards. I only put a few small holes in it but I smashed it to less than half of its diameter and you can see it was a cheap Fiocchi 2 3/4" shell with #4 shot. Don't ask me how a man would tolerate that because I have a feeling I might have a hard time finding volunteers to demonstrate. I do know its the same shotgun and the same load I use on turkeys at 35 yards.

Yep, like all the hairy chested Rambo slug shooters like to say, bird shot is for BIRDS. If I had to shoot at a bear I would prefer slugs, I would prefer my 44 mag or my 30-30 or my M1 Garand but up close and personal considering I don't want to shoot my family members on the other side of bedroom walls. I will accept #4 shot as suitable. Those of you who feel the same don't have anything to apologize for. You know your situation better than anybody on this board and if you don't feel like taking a chance of shooting your neighbors parakeet after your slug goes through a boogerman and your front door and your neighbors window I salute you for your restraint.

 

I posted this before but shooting slugs in your home is like lighting off a hot .300 Winchester Mag,... which nobody would do. It is a completely bad idea to have slugs for a home defense situation.

Buckshot is not much better.

If you live in the middle of nowhere with old plank walls then buckshot might start to be a good choice. In a regular residential situation it is a liability to friends and family.

I have a Mossberg 500 8 shot by the bed. It is loaded (usually) with (8) #4 or #2 shells. Full power and all that. I have shot shotguns my whole life. Can hit teal on the wing right at sunrise. People don't move that fast. I can rattle off the shots on target fast enough to make you think that I am shooting an auto. Nobody is going to stay standing in front of that.

I would not recommend your average double barrel home defender to use #4 if they are not completely comfortable with a shotgun. If you are proficient and confident in your ability then it is more than fine without having the same risks as buckshot or slugs.

Now, if I am outside or travelling then it is all buckshot with slugs in the side saddle. Different places, different uses.

 

Old Grump,

Thanks for posting that photo. It puts to rest all of this nonsense about how bird shot is "ineffective" for home defense. As is always the case, a picture is worth a thousand words. Bill T.

 

3 1/2" rem heavy shot if the make it to my house. Buck shot as the come up the lane. 308 bushmaster at the end of the lane. Don't think I will need the turkey shells lol.

 

Your toast is a horrible choice though since I have not eaten it but people tell me that it' terrible.

 

here a little tidbit I learned from an ER surgeon at a tactical training a couple months back.

He said that a birdshot shotgun blast at close range was by far the most devastating and the hardest injury to fix.....most pts shot in the chest at close range died.....if a person was brought in w/ a handgun round even multiple ones, and they were alive when brought in, he said they usually could save the person....................not so w/ a shotgun blast w/ birdshot

too much bleeding and too many things to fix

just something to ponder.....

 

I can see how it would be one of the hardest injuries to fix. Simply because birdshot has so many little pellets. But The smallest load I would consider for defense (inside) would be a high brass #4 or 5 feild/turkey load. But prefer #4 buckshot for inside. If some one was to be hit with either one of those preferences, there would be no reason to ''fix'' the wound, for they would be DOA. All of that being said I consider my shotguns as more of a ''yard defense'' tool any way. A handgun is my go to inside the home defense tool. Its much easier to maneuver around corners, open doors, use a light, or etc. with a handgun. But if the conflict were to take place outside my shotgun would be my preference.

We can't choose our scenario when it actually happens. Though I agree any 12gauge load within 15 feet would be devastatingly lethal, I do not keep the shotgun loaded with birdshot for I do not know how far the range of the intruder will be. Maybe It can be prevented from even entering my home and maybe i need that shotgun to shoot across my yard. In that case I damn sure wouldn't want a magazine tube full of bird shot.

Bird shot is for birds, I see using bird shot for defense kinda like deer hunting with a 1200 FPS pellet rifle.