Yeah, it has about as much energy as a .223 carbine. I am surprised that this concept has not really caught on. The 10mm just can't seem to break into the main stream.

 

That's because the ten kicked too much for FBI agents so they light loaded it. As soon as Smith & Wesson heard of a light load for the ten mil they cut it down and woo law the 40s@w. so soon as the CHP which was dumping the 357mag chose a 40 the 10 mil was doom to be only used by the UN SCARED about recoil crowd

 

10mm 135gr
4" - 1328 - 529 ft-lbs
_________________________________
45ACP 200gr
4" - 875 - 340 ft-lbs

your data is not comparable with out considering the bullet weight in the calculation.
the math doesn't work.

 

I think the math does work, I just checked it again. The comparison might not be as good as it can be, I'd use the 180gr for the 10mm out of the 4" as a better comparison.

I used this calculator for the ft lbs:
https://billstclair.com/energy.html

and this for some of the speeds:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45colt.html

 

I'd use the 180gr for the 10mm out of the 4" as a better comparison.

then use a 185 for .45acp and the results will be better

 

That''s interesting. Got any stats for how the longer barrel enhances 9mm performance?

 

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/9mm.html

 

Bit easier to read this way...

10mm

45ACP

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/10mm.html

 

i shoot 180 and 165 grainers myself, out of a glock 20... i would love to see a popular carbine for the 10mm though... beretta cx4, keltec sub2k, etc. Right now, the only carbine i know of in 10mm is an HK and they didnt produce many of those. i suspect the pressure is what prevents its use in a normal blowback carbine... which is why the roller locking HK is a better idea with the 10mm.

 

16" - 135gr - 2020fps - 1223 ft-lbs

Not to change the subject, or maybe to change the subject, but I can do better than that out of an SKS for less than .30 cents a round...

http://www.ballistics101.com/7.62x39.php

I might be missing something, what is the intended advantage of an expensive pistol round in a carbine again?

EB
:

 

I agree with this.

Besides the cost factor, I'll take the ballistics of an intermediate rifle round over that of a pistol round being pushed to its absolute limit.

 

.45acp from carbine bbl.

causes me to do some thinking.
I thought I had wrung the last bit of power out of a 185gr jhp .45acp from my Camp .45

 

A guy took a handgun and turned it into a rifle, then he took a handgun round and loaded it to max capacity to try and get rifle round ballistics from it? Seems pointless.

Sounds like a good way to destroy your gun in less than 500 rounds. :rofl:

 

By max pressure I'm sure he means max safe pressure. It's not going to destroy the gun in 500 rounds. A LOT of 10mm for pistols are loaded that hot or even hotter. Check out double tap ammo. I believe that's the name, it's been awhile.

The advantage of a pistol carbine is having a lot more rounds in smaller magazines and less weight for close range. I believe I'd rather be hit with a 125 grn SKS bullet over a 200grn HP 10mm if I had to chose I'd say the 10mm will be better to put bad guy down at closer ranges until it looses the velocity to expand. But for the price your right, get an AK and call it a day. The 10mm would be different and fun, and if you use that logic any pistol carbine is pointless since the AK can do the same thing basically. I think the point here is why the hell is there tons of 9, 40, and 45 carbines and no 10mm ones?? Ammo price is the only reason I can think of, but build cheap carbines and ammo will drop.

 

btw max pressure isnt always a good thing. max pressure does nasty things to cases and guns. you also only list standard pressures of the 40 and 45.

 

Know what's more impressive then a pistol round being shot out of a rifle length barrel?

A rifle round...

 

I realize this is off topic a little, but whenever I hear 10mm & amazing, I flashback to my introduction to this particular caliber . . . Amazing is exactly what went through my mind ! !

Years ago, my L.E. agency was hosting an F.B.I. firearms class at our range where Officers from all across the state, with different issued handguns, attended. There we were on the firing line, all shooting at steel plate silhouette targets,

Even through the earmuffs, you could hear the "tink" of the 9mm's hitting the steel and the muted "clang" of the .40's when, suddenly, a BOOM comes from one end of the firing line & a steel target CLANGS as it actually flips over backwards.

It was exactly like the scene in "Alien Nation" when James Caan fires off a .454 Casull on the LAPD range & everyone stops to see what the heck just happened, LOL.

The Range Officer walked down the line explaining that it was a guy from another agency shooting his issued Glock Model 20 in 10mm. I vowed then & there to own one some day ! !

I realize that there's nothing scientific about this, but the experience of seeing & hearing the dramatic difference in sheer power made me a believer. Several years later, I got a steal of a deal on a Gen One Model 20 L.E. trade in that was SO old the tritium might sights (10-15 year life span) had faded out completely.

A fresh set of Trijicons & I suspect it's good for another 20 years.

 

The low ballistic coefficient of the round means a rapid energy drop off. Probably half energy at 200m. I will stick with my AR.

 

Yes, and this is an amazing benefit in the suburbs. Sure, it's no nerf gun at 200m, but...wouldn't you rather have a "range limited" .223 that hit just as hard up close as your current one, if you lived where 200+ meter shots were only stray bullets and liabilities? Or maybe you live in an area which does not allow the .223/AR platform, and a lever gun makes sense, but a .30-30 doesn't, and you'd prefer to match your Glock instead of matching your S&W 686? There are some seriously viable reasons why a 10mm (and if my fantasy is correct, .40S&W compatible) carbine would be absolutely tits.

Remember the Ruger Deerfield, rotary mag gun? Big 10-22 basically? Hmmm...

 

I want to add some information regarding 10mm rounds.

Have you ever heard of 10mm FMJ 180grain bullets shot out of a 70mm brass case primed with CCI Large pistol magnum primers 18grains of Vectan SP3 powder used to load the ''small'' .410 shotgun?

Yeah that's an ''Alien'' weapon. It has its reasons of existence though:

1. You want to have the advantage of close range ''that you wont get with any rifle'' so you choose a semi-auto shotgun with (10 round mags are enough) and 00 Buckshot 4 or 5 pellets capable for 50-70 meters. That's enough range and spread for a general purpose buckshot load.

2. You want the close range ''shotgun advantage'' but you also need to be able to take out targets at 200-250 meters.
When your iron sights are capable like AK type Iron Sights you are ready to go but you also need the right ammunition for the job. And that's were the rounds i am talking about jump in.
They hit a circle of 2 inches at 200 meters shot after shot and that's decent accuracy.
(I have not calculated any ballistic statistics the only thing i counted is the muzzle velocity of 900 up to 970 fpe). Of course exact velocity varies depending on bullet (FMJ, SWC, or Steel core self made cast bullets) and of course internal setup like nitro cards, wads, etc.

Don't worry about pressure being to much just test your rounds work your loads from a minimum point up to the maximum test and check for any high pressure signs and you are good to go.

3. You want to hit beyond 200 like 300 meters and a little more if possible (have not tried it beyond 300) in case you need to deliver a precision shot at a human sized target in that distance.
So you choose a scope with the right field of view and reach at that range. (A fixed x6 magnification scope is more than enough). As long as you know precision marksmanship and professional use of a scope in the field sighting for every distance and knowing the right settings (scope adjustments) you will have excellent results.

4. With this setup you have the advantage of close range ''that you wont get with any rifle'' and the capability of shooting at the minimum range required for modern day field of operations.
The useful ''Survival'' rounds you can have are plenty and for different purposes:

- Breaching rounds. You need a muzzle flash adapter for that and make your own with zinc powder pellets and custom made wads.
- Flechette rounds. Ideal for taking out a hidden target beyond heavy bushes. Of course its little more difficult to assemble such rounds from scrap.
- Underwater Flechette rounds. Useful only if you need to shoot something in the water or shoot underwater or from water. Its a little more complicated to assemble the round.
- General purpose buckshot for 50 to 70 meters.
- Ultimate close range buckshot for 30 to 50 meters.
- General purpose slugs for 200 to 250 meters.
- Long range slugs combined with the right scope setup for precision shooting at 300 meters and beyond. (Considering that a slug can travel up to 500 meters you only need to find out ''shot placement'' and at what distance beyond 300 meters it will kill as long as you hit ''vitals organs''
- Birdshot for hunting small game.

That's it. If you use this setup combined with the right training and preparation and of course equipment you are ready for every SHTF scenario.

Personally i live in a country that will collapse soon and its Gun Laws don't allow us to have Semi - Auto rifles or hunt with anything else than shotguns so the only thing you can obtain as a rifle is a Bolt Action Rifle that you can use only in Practical Shooting like Bench Rest etc.
So i choose a .410 Saiga AK01 Shotgun for general purpose and i needed to modify it to be capable to do what i did as a Green Berret Reservist in the military with an M16A2 rifle.
As for what i prefer for ranges beyond 300 meters i go all the way to a .308win Remington 700 Bolt Action Rifle converted to match the U.S M24 Sniper Weapon System.

Even if they would allow us to have semi auto rifles i would prefer the Shotgun for maximum close range performance and a bolt action rifle for long range performance. I really hate the 5.56 NATO round because being capable to shoot at extended ranges like 800 meters hidden and steady with a Ghillie Suit why should i regulate my self to smaller capabilities.

The above setup is perfect for what we know as ''Recon'' scouting, close and swift engagements, covered operations etc. and of course by being capable of crafting your own ammunition in 10mm with the same materials you can supply your side arm/ pistol.
That way in any SHTF scenario you wont run out of ammo considering the vast amounts of shotshells ''shotshell crafting materials'' everywhere and as long as you save .308 ammo for your ''Sniper Rifle'' you will also maintain your ''Sniping capability'' since you wont use it much only in rare occasions.

I hope any ''Survival'' enthusiast finds this information useful i was glad to share them with you.

Quote: There is no defence against asymmetric warfare. No fortification can prevent infiltration. No installation can prevent sabotage. No person can prevent being surprised. Those who strike first survive those who don't die. That is asymmetric warfare. That is its only law.

 

About equal the ballistics of a black powder .38-40 Winchester 1873 cowboy gun...

That's progress for ya...

 

I hate asking stupid questions, but could a .40 work in a tube-fed lever gun chambered for 10mm? Similar to how a .38 special works in one chambered for .357mag? The case length difference between the two pairs is almost identical, and the .40 is a clone of the 10mm case (its parent case), save for length. Why could this not work, thus making a 10mm lever gun absolutely feasible from a sales/supply standpoint regarding "but noone would buy it due to the "rare" ammo!?"

 

My 16" model 92 .357 will put out more ft lbs than that.

 

Crazy Wheel Guns

 

Interesting,

From that data, anything over 7" barrel length results in more energy from a .41mag than a .44mag.

 

this is a great thread. thanks fellas

 

Kris’s is making a Vector in 10mm with a 16” barrel as well...

 

SHTF? I want 3 guns... (posting to an old thread)

1. Sidearm
2. Carbine using the exact same round as the side arm (if I convert a pistol, I'm leaving it converted, so I'll need to get two)
3. Hunting / Sniping rifle

This means I stock up on as many of the same 2 rounds as I can, and I can effectively deal with a vast array of targets at a variety of ranges under a variety of circumstances. I invest in only 3 weapons (more on this later)...

I have owned guns, but currently do not, so I'm not trying to match up with any existing investments. I have looked at lots of ballistics charts, gun reviews, and threads like this one. There are many considerations to maximize the "synergy" of a combination like this, but the short version is, I'm currently leaning toward 10mm as my pistol caliber, with .40 S&W being close runner up, and not yet out of the race. I'm thinking Glock 20 as sidearm and "host" for carbine conversion. There are now several decent options for 10mm carbines out there.

More: Once I get my three guns, then if I have the resources, I may get more. For instance, if I choose a big caliber for the long gun, I will probably also want to add an AR in .223 in order to be able to use ammo and parts that may be available "in a pinch".

I'm leaving my input vague on purpose, hoping to get any comments I can on scenarios to consider, particular calibers with pros and cons, particular gun selections that fit well for this combination, or any experience to share.

Thanks much to anyone willing to post back to this old thread

 

And to really trigger some purist Hi-Point is now offering it's carbine in 10mm.

 

Imagine if it were a .357 mag
More gun

➤ 18.5-inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2153 fps---- Can you believe this?!!!
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2298 fps---- Or this?!!!