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YOU threatened the guy.
I didn't.

I am not the person trying to save my butt because of a mechanical breakdown.
Besides
IF
and that is a HUGE IF
I were the one in that position,
once the guy made his case that he was never going to give it up no matter what but he also would not raise a hand to stop me
I would have taken it without the threats. They would not be needed
BUT

I am going to NEVER be that guy because my out plan does not require such things.
... You beg and cajole and even threaten, but he is adamant, even though he will do nothing with it, he refuses to help you to save you and yours...
Kinda silly, as I wouldn't threaten anyone. As I wouldn't take to being threatened in similar situation "kindly".

However, given as presented. Borrow it.
YOU threatened the guy.
I didn't...
Again, silly. Because I wouldn't threaten. So I didn't.
 

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Discussion Starter · #102 ·
They is a SPECIFIC "you" and a collective "you"

You may not have personally threatened him but YOU did.
 

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They is a SPECIFIC "you" and a collective "you"

You may not have personally threatened him but YOU did.
No I didn't. Because I wouldn't. Not just because I wouldn't have to, not being in the situation in the first place. Simply because I wouldn't.

Apparently you would, because YOU did.
 

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Without that vehicle all your plans are ruined and you and yours will probably die.
You can take it without using force as the guy says he won't try to stop you but he says you will be stealing from him what is his and you have no right to it. and you will have sinned some more if you do take it.
your call...
It’s why a good planner has contingencies. First, you have to presume we can’t “bug in”. Again, I defy the needs to become a refugee just because of such a threat…I’ll take my chances. Now, if it’s something I mentioned earlier where we simply can’t remain, we have other plans.

We would be in a convoy and could cross-load essential items and family if one vehicle broke down. We travel with mountain bikes as an alternate means of transportation. This is the point where one has to assess their own ethical-moral code. I would actually offer the guy to keep any excess we couldn’t carry and tell him to have a blessed day and Charlie Mike. If you’re telling me I screwed up my planning to the point all my eggs were in one vehicle, I would deserve becoming zombie chow.

That said, if he had no objections other than telling me I could take it against his will…I would still offer a deal and would probably “borrow” it. This is the age old ethical dilemmas of justifying theft to feed you kids. You’ve already screwed up by your lack of preparation, contingency plans, and poor decision making…you might as well keep going. However, if you believe in Karma, the “price” of that borrowed vehicle may be much higher than you or your family can afford. If you were a religious man, and God said you could take that vehicle, but it would cost you the life of one of your children, would that change your decision? Actions always have consequences…

Now, a more probably analogy would be trying to get home or to your retreat on foot and come up to a swollen river, no bridges, but a couple of river homes (no occupants) and a canoe or boat sits there. Is it ethical to take it to cross the river? I would leave a note to owners and whatever I could muster to compensate for the rental fee, and take the boat/canoe to cross. I can’t be the Darwin owner, but I can put myself in those shoes. If I was bugged in and a family had the same situation and asked buy or borrow your truck, would you? If that was my boat on the river bank, it was s second home and not a primary means of transportation, I would have zero issues if someone sent me a note explaining why they needed to borrow it and left a box of 9mm to compensate me.

I will concede that while you simply can’t plan for every contingency, “what-if” planning is good war-gaming to make sure you do develop those important contingency (branch/sequel) plans…that’s the best way to avoid those ethical or moral dilemmas.

It helps having a faith-based moral and ethical foundation. I've been confronted with some very challenging decisions in life, and God has delivered when I really needed help and direction. Of course, I fail to rely on Him all the time and only when I'm in a bind...but he's never failed me despite my many failures.

ROCK6
 

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OK.. since there have been a few folks positioning themselves as to what they would or would not do....

You have figured out what you need to do to survive the coming storm. You are transporting your goods along with all your family and other associates supplies, and your primary hauling vehicle breaks down.

Just down the road from you you find the perfect vehicle you would need to carry on.
But, it is owned by someone else, it is sitting in the guy's yard and he is calmly sitting on the porch.
You ask him if he has plans for his vehicle to get away, but he says no. "It is a sign from the creator that we should all perish for our wickedness." You ask him can you buy or borrow the vehicle because while he does not plan on using it , if you could have it it could save many lives and help you carry on. He says he will not help others to survive the plague. You beg and cajole and even threaten, but he is adamant, even though he will do nothing with it, he refuses to help you to save you and yours.

Without that vehicle all your plans are ruined and you and yours will probably die.
You can take it without using force as the guy says he won't try to stop you but he says you will be stealing from him what is his and you have no right to it. and you will have sinned some more if you do take it.

Take it and preserve life
or
not take it and die from the horror

your call...
People are traveling? If I'm in the city, I stay in the city. If we've moved to our new house in the country, I stay in the country. I wouldn't get make a decision that drags my family into a conflict.

Maybe it's just me but any plan that includes hauling people any distance with a lot of supplies, it sounds very vulnerable to me.
 

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What would Mal do
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Traveling has to be part of the plan options. We moved out to the country about 17yrs back. I'm sitting on over a dozen acres..half that in tall wood for fire etc. a 2 acre deep pond that is well stocked means I've got some additional food source and an inground pool means there is some fairly decent water already available to process through the Berkey filter.
My supplies here are extensive and without a doubt, our best option is to stay put IF we can. A contamination scenario that is more localized would be an example of what might require us to leave.
our plans are layered.
Level 1 - awakened middle of night - seconds count, grab the wife in one hand, the gobag in the other. maybe a vehicle maybe the 4wheeler.
Level 2 - minutes mean we can grab some prepacked bags/tubs, toss them into the truck bed and maybe run the enduro or the quad up into the bed..and scramble away.
Level 3 - a good hours advance warning means I can hitch to the travel trailer, load it up (I have prepacked supplies, from food, to water, to firearms/ammo. etc Life gets a lot better with all that resource, but again, I realize clogged routes can turn a travel trailer into a whole different problem.
At any point I might need to unhitch, cross load what I can to the truck, drop it into 4x4 and try to continue. At some point it might come down to grabbing what we can, saddle up on the Honda and go best we can.

But no, if I can stay here...it's by far the best plan. that includes rolls of plastic and tape that I have on hand to try and seal the house up a bit as well as blinding outside snipers from seeing our movements in the house.
 

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Traveling has to be part of the plan options. We moved out to the country about 17yrs back. I'm sitting on over a dozen acres..half that in tall wood for fire etc. a 2 acre deep pond that is well stocked means I've got some additional food source and an inground pool means there is some fairly decent water already available to process through the Berkey filter.
My supplies here are extensive and without a doubt, our best option is to stay put IF we can. A contamination scenario that is more localized would be an example of what might require us to leave.
our plans are layered.
Level 1 - awakened middle of night - seconds count, grab the wife in one hand, the gobag in the other. maybe a vehicle maybe the 4wheeler.
Level 2 - minutes mean we can grab some prepacked bags/tubs, toss them into the truck bed and maybe run the enduro or the quad up into the bed..and scramble away.
Level 3 - a good hours advance warning means I can hitch to the travel trailer, load it up (I have prepacked supplies, from food, to water, to firearms/ammo. etc Life gets a lot better with all that resource, but again, I realize clogged routes can turn a travel trailer into a whole different problem.
At any point I might need to unhitch, cross load what I can to the truck, drop it into 4x4 and try to continue. At some point it might come down to grabbing what we can, saddle up on the Honda and go best we can.

But no, if I can stay here...it's by far the best plan. that includes rolls of plastic and tape that I have on hand to try and seal the house up a bit as well as blinding outside snipers from seeing our movements in the house.
It doesn't sound like one of the options in this scenario. It sounds like it was the primary plan.
 

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Can't do a damn thing.

The idea is we're caught off guard because something hit us we weren't ready for.

The thinking exercise is how do we get ready had we know?

Not much of a thinking exercise if we know what to prepare for... The idea is to gather together enough supplies that can be used for a variety of scenarios. Also, to learn skills. These you can always take with you, and they don't spoil with time, heat, bugs, whatever... Skills is what will get you through.


You need skills, and knife, and a poncho.
 

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Not planning on surviving something so drastic. Don't even want to survive it. What for?

No, death has been right here beside me for a long time now, and one day he'll reach out his bony hand and take mine, and away we'll go.

Really, death just isn't bothering me so much these days. It's like SNAP! and someone's gone. Exactly like that. Here one moment, gone the next.

I'd have better options elsewhere in eternity than on earth at that point.

Precisely. I’ve been a lifelong prepper since my 20s and I am now 60. Most times I can’t even figure out why I am prepping anymore. For what? To live an extra few months??? I did it earlier for my family and my children but now that they are grown and gone and it’s just to me, so the purpose behind it has all but disappeared. Still, it’s fun and my only hobby and maybe I can help others.

But with age comes wisdom and my current conclusions on preparing is this. You’re going to be dead for an infinite amount of time longer then you’re going to be alive. Why bother preparing for that flash of a life span, when it’s death you need to be preparing for!!! Much more concern should be put into the afterlife and not current life. In short, get right with God.

I would HATE to have lived a good and Godly life, just to chunk it all down the drain at the last second by blowing away some poor guy that was trying to steal a can of pork and beans because he was starving!
 

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One of your primary assumptions is wrong.
In the USA there are BILLIONS and BILLIONS of rounds of ammo in private hands. Probably enough to kill everyone on the planet 2x over. And unlike many other countries, we have the hardware (guns) to make use of that ammo.

Plus there is all the ammo and guns in government hands.

In many countries I could see something like that sweeping unchecked through a nation. In the USA the zombies would find a lot of armed resistance.
 

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The zombies to worry about are Leftists. The infection is spread at epicentres like colleges and it can take as little as two semesters exposure for full blown symptoms to show.
You notice changes in appearance first, bulging eyes, change in hair colour followed by rapid strident mouth noises that are pure gibberish.
Autopsy’s reveal that the brain case is completely filled with fecal matter, which in extreme cases exudes from the ears under high pressure.
Fire facts at them and still keep coming, even dropped heavy home truths on them to little effect.

Early work on memes has shown promise causing confusion with disorientation and isolation from the main group followed by intense exposure to Jordan Peterson recordings has been known to effect complete cures, although the mechanism is not yet fully understood.
 

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Discussion Starter · #112 ·
MY SOLUTION to the END GAME

AS everyone has said before..

in NUMBERS there is SECURITY

First I start making phone calls.

As I have posted before I have shot competition for about 20 years and met a LOT of folks from all over the country and while we do not get together any more we do kinda keep in touch. This also includes former service folks.

I start getting in touch and explain my idea. What happens next is dependent upon the response
but
I could safely say there would be at least 50-100+ people who would want to join up with their families, and at least 50 or so would be EXCELLENT with firearms.

as for ammo, If you added everything up everyone would bring to the show, I KNOW we would be well over a million rounds, maybe as much as two million and there would be machine guns including several ground guns and knowledge and skills sets you would not believe including master gunsmiths.

While the group is assembling on the WEST coast, several of us will be doing the leg work necessary

Along with their guns and ammo they would be bringing all their food preps and tools including heavier tools and equipment and all other essential survival equipment.
AN appropriate sized ship will be procured, size will be dependent upon the response and when everything is loaded on board, off we go.

there are thousands of islands in the Pacific and a lot of them are uninhabited.

due to their remoteness. All that has to be done then is find an appropriate island to take care of our needs.

If needed we could also go to occupied islands, I doubt with what we could bring we would be unwelcome. Pitcairn Island population is only 55 people and is actively trying to recruit people to go there to live.



We would launch long before the zombies made it to the Missouri River
 

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Discussion Starter · #115 ·
I figured there was a boat involved. How are you gonna “procure” one of the size you’re gonna need?
BUY ONE...we are talking a LOT of assets in the people I know and there are a LOT of boats on the market.
IF, no one wants to sell then you rent it out, let them crew it and take it where needed.
ALSO
IF you told the potential master/crew that you would be providing them with very safe passage along with the ability to survive the coming storm I doubt if there would be much reticence After all, survival is the name of the game.

There are THOUSANDS of boats that would suit the requirements as for seaworthy and have the legs.
It would not be the job of finding one, but if word spread, taking your pick of the one that suit you best.
 

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YOU SIMPLY cannot have prepped enough ..THE END GAME...

A BIBLICAL type plague slowly will sweep the planet. A rabies spin off is turning people into mindless attacking hoards of rampaging loonies, who are bent on attacking anything that moves. The infection can be spread by any contact with any infected bodily fluids. The result of infection is virtually the same as the zombie plagues of stage and screen.

There are going to be maybe a couple BILLION or more plague infested creatures running about. Some countries may even resort to nukes. And projections are so long as they can find food, whatever it may be they could live for years.

The result.. you will never have enough ammo saved to keep them at bay nor will you have enough food stored nor able to have the opportunity to plant and harvest your crops. You will need to have years behind an unbreechable compound and potentially millions of rounds of ammo...if they find you and the odds are great they will.

You will have maybe 2-3 months at best if you live in CONUS to do whatever you will need to do to survive past the extent of your present preps. THe plague will sweep in from across the Atlantic Ocean after it sweeps Asia and Europe, so you will have more time than those other nations. It may take a year before it gets to Tierra Del Fuego.


You CAN SAY..Why bother and decide to go out in a ball of flame and glory as you re-enact John Wayne in the last scene from THE ALAMO... or Capt. V.J. Dax of STARSHIP TROOPERS 2.

OR
try to make your BOL and preps last as planned and hope for the best

OR
have you actually prepped for the almost unthinkable?

What options are there to survive and continue a life during and then after the APOC.

THIS is an exercise in thinking beyond all your foreseen possibilities.
or,
how good are you thinking outside of your comfort zone?

hint..
my version is pretty drastic.
I agree you cant have too much in the way of preps
 

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I am hoping that zombie will replace the word sheeple. I never liked that term sheeple and it makes real life sheep seem bad. Maybe zombie will not be as offensive and some may even hope to become a zombie someday since they will likely be too scared to face or prepare for any future terrible events. As long as I am in my mtn area I will not fear much especially any zombies which Wyoming likely will have open season on those kinds of critters
Sheep are notoriously efficient at ending their life by mal-adventure. And they're good at getting fleeced. There is some truth to both analogies.
 

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Discussion Starter · #119 ·
THERE will ALWAYS be at least ONE boat available out of the thousands out there.
And
What good is a boat if you do not have the food to put in it or the tools to survive out in no mans land?
WE would provide food and protection.
With the logistics we would bring, unless pirates were running big deck guns we would be a hard nut to crack.
One of the people I would be calling has a DD license and it includes his Swiss Solothurn 20mm. Last time I talked to him he was sitting on about 400rds for it. 😁
 

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Resource crunch + effects of global warming + pollution and environmental collapse + epidemics and pandemics + WMDs + effects of breakdown of supply chains on 7 to 10 days' worth of medicine, food, fuel, ammo, etc., in every town and city, etc.
 
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