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America is a land where there are A LOT OF ARMED CITIZENS, most of them will shoot any gang members or looters on the spot, after a while there will be A LOT less of them to loot or create chaos.
We are not Africa, France, or Germany, we are America, where if they try to disarm everyone, well..... good luck with that.

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I think there will be people like me that can or have an abundance of this or that who will trade with neighbors who do the same for a while. Then after we all get robbed we will tread more lightly.
 

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Markets will form everywhere, but they will be guarded heavily by people getting their cut. Lots of things will still be produced, it will just need proper security in place for merchants and shoppers to feel safe there.

Community or flea markets will be more the norm, but on steroids. They will be selling practical utilitarian stuff, food, alcohol, tobacco and medicine.

As supply chains break down local producers will have to sell locally anyway, so small towns will become market centres where they will trade there wares.



 

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I have been hearing a lot of talk over the last 3 days or so of a looming diesel fuel shortage. As well as a lot of talk of not being able to get parts to fix trucks when they break, supposedly a lot of parts are on extended back orders with no ETAs
 

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My US experiences are different than many posting here.

Today in my retirement shack in a rural county, ... this place and the rest of the coastal Virginia area are a garrison state.

I was a soldier in 1968 deployed to help the civil authorities work 2 major riots. No stores open in these 2 riot zones. Day and night illumination by firebombs / Molatov cocktails.

Had once worked on Capitol Hill, Washington, D.C. No one that was of sound mind would go out when political disturbances in Wards 7 and 8. There was a reason the Georgetown area (Ward 3) successfully fought to keep metro out so as to preserve the neighborhood's traditional character even though there are parking lots.
 

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I have been hearing a lot of talk over the last 3 days or so of a looming diesel fuel shortage.
Let the Arabs drink all their diesel. I can make my own...


Yes, I really have made bio-diesel... it's easier than you think. YouTube is full of complete how-to videos on bio-diesel.

It's why I insisted on getting a diesel car.. not petrol. I will never be trapped in my home. No one puts baby in a corner!
 

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………Out here in the sticks, I would hope the farmers market would continue to operate so local farmers could sell their produce. Even if it didn't, we'd ramp up our garden and chicken flock anyway, and I'd look for some way to trade with other local producers. It's nice to live where the food comes from, but without some way to trade it would be hard to keep a diverse diet.

ttkciar - cool story about the riots but my comments are about your “what if” plans. I suggest that now is the time people ramp up the gardens and expand flocks/other livestock. Chicks take 4-5 months to start laying and most veggies take 2-3 months. I don’t doubt that most here can go that long without a grocery store run but don’t recommend everyone put a big dent in their panty and wallet in the meantime.

Granted it probably won’t suddenly switch off like the riot or grid down. But we know stores will continue to have fewer options and be more expensive over time. I personally think by this fall things will be bad and next year will be worse but my opinion and a dollar will get you a 50 cent can of coke.
 
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ttkciar - cool story about the riots but my comments are about your “what if” plans. I suggest that now is the time people ramp up the gardens and expand flocks/other livestock. Chicks take 4-5 months to start laying and most veggies take 2-3 months. I don’t doubt that most here can go that long without a grocery store run but don’t recommend everyone put a big dent in their panty and wallet in the meantime.

Granted it probably won’t suddenly switch off like the riot or grid down. But we know stores will continue to have fewer options and be more expensive over time. I personally think by this fall things will be bad and next year will be worse but my opinion and a dollar will get you a 50 cent can of coke.
Beaner,

Believe it was me scribbling about anti-riot service early AM today.

The significance is that specific area riots do indeed modify "what if plans". Most all LEOs are working the riots. Prudence demands more efforts to adjust schedules and avoid, for example, trips for garden supplies. Even in routine times, crime - especially property crimes - are around and noticeable even though not necessarily reported in the newspapers or on the radio news.
 

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Will people / gangs assault you for the groceries in the parking lot?

Will they hijack your car for food and get the gas as a bonus?

Will gangs descend on food stores to clean them out instead of stealing worthless purses?

Will there be diesel to power the trucks to even deliver food...or grow it?

Lots of questions to answer in a SHTF world. At the very least, maybe a team of two armed persons would have to food shop. One to load the car and one as a lookout.
The closest I came to SHTF situations were the Seattle riots in 1999 and Kincade Fire evacuation in 2019.

In 1999 I and a few coworkers were trapped in our offices in the Westin Building for two days while the rioters and police raged back and forth below us.

When we ventured out, almost everything was closed. My car was locked in the parking garage with no attendants present, and we had to search a few city blocks to find a store that was open (a liquor store -- we bought snacks and brought them back to the group so we could eat while discussing what we'd seen and what to do next). The buses were not running, and I had to hoof it about a mile south before I could find one.

Ever since that experience, I've always kept one of my office desk drawers full of food.

In 2019 we evacuated to a friend's house in East Bay (actually turned out to be a friend-of-a-friend's house, which our friend volunteered without asking permission, upsetting the actual owner a bit). Unlike in Seattle, it was business as usual despite the fires and pseudo-refugees (like ourselves), and we were able to buy food and other things.

In short, yeah, what others have already said -- it depends on the exact form of SHTF, but it has to get pretty bad before food becomes unavailable, and even then the impact might have a small footprint, outside which it's business as usual.

As for a scenario where all of western civilization collapses and food stops getting trucked into the cities, I expect shopping would be dangerous for a short time, and then all the food would be gone. The urbanites would need to leave or die.

Out here in the sticks, I would hope the farmers market would continue to operate so local farmers could sell their produce. Even if it didn't, we'd ramp up our garden and chicken flock anyway, and I'd look for some way to trade with other local producers. It's nice to live where the food comes from, but without some way to trade it would be hard to keep a diverse diet.
Urban Areas will become Kill Zones for the weak. Then they will progress to Killer vrs Killer. Finally they will be picked off in the Suburbs, one by one.
In Suburbs it will depend on your level of awareness and preparedness. The initial wave of those fleeing the urban areas will be your greatest threat, yet short lived! The primary target of those fleeing will be the countryside, as has been the case throughout history; to include the depression in the USA. The woodlands will not be safe, due to arson, wild fires, idiots from the cities and suburbs thinking they can Hunt and the general thieves looking to take the bugout stashes. No your stashes won't be safe from sniffing DOGS. Farms will be occupied by Military forces to secure food for Govt. programs and the soldiers! Small towns and sleepy suburbs will hold out the longest; especially if you have local food markets. In all cases; if you don't have 2-3 years of dry goods food, personal gardens, water stash and weapon systems, you won't make it no matter where you are.
God Speed and for the Lord's sake PREP
 

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Markets will form everywhere, but they will be guarded heavily by people getting their cut. Lots of things will still be produced, it will just need proper security in place for merchants and shoppers to feel safe there.

Community or flea markets will be more the norm, but on steroids. They will be selling practical utilitarian stuff, food, alcohol, tobacco and medicine.

As supply chains break down local producers will have to sell locally anyway, so small towns will become market centres where they will trade there wares.



I think that you are correct ….to a point! After a short period of time, how are people going to get to/from these gatherings…..As the vast majority of people do not have transportation once the fuel stops flowing! Also, very few producers have the means to grow sufficient quantities or transport that which is produced!


In short……if we can’t produce it ourselves, most of us are screwed! ☹ memtb
 
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What are you talking about? My friends in SF haven't mentioned any shopping risks. Neither have my family members in L.A. Nor have I encountered or observed any at the Costco in Santa Rosa.

I get that everyone loves to hate California, but that's no reason to make stuff up when people are trying to have a serious conversation about risks and how to mitigate them.

Let's try to keep actual survivalism discussions fact-based.
Let the Arabs drink all their diesel. I can make my own...


Yes, I really have made bio-diesel... it's easier than you think. YouTube is full of complete how-to videos on bio-diesel.

It's why I insisted on getting a diesel car.. not petrol. I will never be trapped in my home. No one puts baby in a corner!

We make bio-diesel here too. I never quite understand why people will think the world will just stop because they don't know how to take care of themselves.
 

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I'm selling at the farmer's market right now. I live where there are more guns than people. I have one in the small of my back now. Not because I am scared, but because I don't get dressed without one. So, who are these fools that are going to move up to my frozen home and try to get a cut of my sales? Head on down to your local farmer's market, get some good food, and make friends with the people who produce food close to your home instead of ship it in from Mexico or California. These people will be more likely to help their friends than strangers they've never seen at the market. I know I would. No worries about roaming gangs around here.
 

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I'm selling at the farmer's market right now. I live where there are more guns than people. I have one in the small of my back now. Not because I am scared, but because I don't get dressed without one. So, who are these fools that are going to move up to my frozen home and try to get a cut of my sales? Head on down to your local farmer's market, get some good food, and make friends with the people who produce food close to your home instead of ship it in from Mexico or California. These people will be more likely to help their friends than strangers they've never seen at the market. I know I would. No worries about roaming gangs around here.
100% truth
 

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I highly recommend Selcos books. If you don't have a clue as to how bad the intertribal warfare will be in a Diversity is our Strength, multicultural society, it will give you some good ideas.
Expect kindness, goodwill toward men and compassion to be words.
Mothers and women will engage in some very distasteful commerce to procure food for children and self.
Killing people who appear dissimilar to one's own group will become the norm in some circumstances.
Figure hygiene, medical care and neighborliness to be things of the past...
Sounds like Utopia, doesn't it?
 

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I highly recommend Selcos books. If you don't have a clue as to how bad the intertribal warfare will be in a Diversity is our Strength, multicultural society, it will give you some good ideas.
Expect kindness, goodwill toward men and compassion to be words.
Mothers and women will engage in some very distasteful commerce to procure food for children and self.
Killing people who appear dissimilar to one's own group will become the norm in some circumstances.
Figure hygiene, medical care and neighborliness to be things of the past...
Sounds like Utopia, doesn't it?
and there are many in our community ie "preppers" who hasten the day claiming they can't wait... Life has a surprise for them and it aint gonna be like Christmas morning
 
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