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Destroyer of Ignorance
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was sitting here listening to the podcast from the "Call to Arms" thread and I got to thinking ...

It takes 51% (usually) to win an election, it took 4% support to get the American Revolution underway. Assuming a legitimate election process, I guess it comes down to the number of people that can be convinced of the importance of the cause. If you can get 51% then revolution can be acheived without bloodshed. If not, then violence must be the next and final choice.

Judging by the most recent election, there will be no return to freedom, no reduction of taxes, no reduction in the size of government without armed men and women deciding that they, like Patrick Henry, would rather die trying to achieve liberty than to surrender to the whims of an oppressive government.

Ask yourself this: Do you really think that the United States will ever be returned to the principles of freedom and liberty in a peaceful manner? Honestly? I can't see it happening as it would require the mental "re-wiring" of the masses. Even if external forces make the general populus wake up and pay attention, it probably will not make them more intelligent, it will not make them able to comprehend the philosophy of freedom. So, maybe they survive, but will they have the mental stamina to change the way they think about the role of government? I fear not.

History has surely shown us that the masses are mentally lazy. Could this be why the average Republic only lasts about 200 years? Each generation neglects their "Watchdog" duty a little more and a little more until the final generation only pays attention once their freedoms have received a death blow.
 

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To secure peace is to...
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Totally agree. People don't care about their freedoms, the average person cares about their air conditioning, their cable TV, and being able to feed their face with McDonalds. As long as those aren't interrupted, they could care less about Constitutional rights, etc.

People will only begin to care when they are freezing or burning up and American Idol gets turned off...
 

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What will it take? Any thing resembling the start of the first revolution would just look like a stand off at a millitia compound. The liberal media will make it look like a bunch of nuts refusing to pay their taxes and the atf and fbi did what was best for the servants the this country, by protecting them from these unpatriotic wackos. i think it will take something bigger like a state or states seceding from the union. I don't think it could happen with just a bunch of fed up preppers.
 

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Here's my safety Sir
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Look at who got Obamanation elected. I rest my case.
 
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Look how long it takes for the bottom to fall out of a Republic. It could take that long or longer to rebuild one. The situation our country is in did not happen overnight, changing it will not happen overnight. It will take many generations to get it back to where it should be. Persistence is the key. Eventually, we will prevail.
 

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Improvise Adapt Overcome!
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What will it take? Any thing resembling the start of the first revolution would just look like a stand off at a millitia compound. The liberal media will make it look like a bunch of nuts refusing to pay their taxes and the atf and fbi did what was best for the servants the this country, by protecting them from these unpatriotic wackos. i think it will take something bigger like a state or states seceding from the union. I don't think it could happen with just a bunch of fed up preppers.
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You are 100% correct on this!!

I am actually thinking a major economic collapse, to the point where it is painfully obvious that the government cannot help, and may even cease to function is just what we need. People need to scream for government help, only to be met with thier stupidity at every turn, when they need the help the most.

It has to get so bad, that the welfare checks stop flowing, and stop flowing long enough to where those people must either learn to support themselves, or die. Once we have lived through that state of collapse, new, real and sound minded leaders will be elected, leaders who are weak, and can't over tax the people for useless government programs. Leaders who do not interfere in our lives, leaders who do not interfere in business, and who do not rule as Kings, but serve as presidents, congress men and representatives.
 

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To secure peace is to...
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Me and my only survivalist buddy have concluded that for real "change" to happen, the S must HTF. We are not pleased with the current state of the country nor where it is headed. We kind of entertain the theory of "bring on Barack" and let the SHTF so that we can get the revolution started...why delay the inevitible??? Bring it on...
 

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Destroyer of Ignorance
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Royal Dragon,

You may want to take a closer look at history and what the results of a failed Republic tend to be. In a word ... Dictatorship. The fall of a Republic creates a power-vacuum with the populus begging for someone to fill it. They will "elect" a person who is tough on crime since the memories of anarchy and riots will be fresh in their minds. Unfortunately, they usually pick someone who is a bit too harsh and power hungry. This person will continually expand executive powers and, by name or actions, will eventually become a dictator.

The people will live under this new oppressive government until yet another revolution occurs. It is usually at this point that a new Republic can be created.
 
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[. . .]

Ask yourself this: Do you really think that the United States will ever be returned to the principles of freedom and liberty in a peaceful manner? Honestly? I can't see it happening as it would require the mental "re-wiring" of the masses.

[. . .]
To answer your question, no, I do not ever see the US returning to the principles it was founded on. The real question should be, "Will the US ever deteriorate to an intolerable condition?"

While I love the ideology of the founding fathers and their strong emphasis on individual rights, many people seem to be just fine living without most of these ideas--myself included. I'm not saying that I would choose the way things are now over the way they could be, but all things considered, life is still pretty good.

Life and liberty are only worthwhile commodities so long as they allow the pursuit of happiness. People are happy now. They are happy with their TVs; they are happy with their internet and they are happy with their fast food. The majority has spoken: the conveniences afforded by mass organization are worth the corruption that comes with them.

So long as the status quo is maintained, a revolution isn't beneficial. One only becomes beneficial when people become unhappy or believe that unhappiness is imminent. As I've said, the real question is then "Is unhappiness imminent?"

A few months ago I would have said "yes." It was easy to believe that our democracy was broken and corruption was so rampant that it would eventually lead to an intolerable condition. But a few months ago, for the first time in my young life, I saw the government give something back. The overturning of the D.C. gun ban is proof positive that things can go the opposite way. The slow erosion of civil liberties is not imminent after all. The tides can be reversed.

True, our liberty may never again be as pure as it was after the revolutionary war, but it is still at a tolerable level and non-violent politics still work. So long as we private citizens maintain our arms and our spirit of "don't tread on me," the government will have to respect us.

Keep your arms but never shoot when your opponent is willing to negotiate.
 

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Ask yourself this: Do you really think that the United States will ever be returned to the principles of freedom and liberty in a peaceful manner? Honestly? I can't see it happening as it would require the mental "re-wiring" of the masses. Even if external forces make the general populous wake up and pay attention, it probably will not make them more intelligent, it will not make them able to comprehend the philosophy of freedom. So, maybe they survive, but will they have the mental stamina to change the way they think about the role of government? I fear not.
The thing of it is that when the American revaluation took place the two sides where relatively equal as far as weapons go that is not the case any more. If a band of patriots / rebels / insurgents try to fight against the us it is going to be pop guns against tanks / fighter jets / bombers / destroyers / aircraft carriers, The pop guns are not going to have much effect. We saw what happened in tiamen square when the student movement tried to defy the government they rolled over them in tanks. The same will happen here I know you think that Americans wont turn on Americans well you are wrong that is what the Chinese students thought and the first few days the soldiers refused then they came back to base and the drivers of the tanks where executed the next day we saw pictures of the tanks rolling over the people. The only way the US will ever have another revolution is if a group of military commanders band together to and stage a coupe ether that or it will have to be a total assault by all Americans on the white house but if you have that kind of support you can vote every one out and start over so why would you assault the white house.
Well that my 2 cents.
 

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Destroyer of Ignorance
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Keep your arms but never shoot when your opponent is willing to negotiate.
Rights are NOT to be negotiated.

To say that the Federal government is willing to negotiate is rediculous. The government does what it wants when it wants. The American people spoke loud and clear during the debates of the initial bail out bill. So the House defeated it. Well, that's not what the PTB wanted so the Senate wrote their own version and shoved it down the throats of Congress (A 100% unconstituional procedure BTW).

These people know no limits except when faced with physical harm. The founder's attempted to negotiate with King George and he basically told them to "get fu#ked". They understood that basic human rights are a very valuable thing, worth dying over even. It's a damned shame that there aren't many people left in this soul-less country who have that kind of integrity.

We will, once again, soon see the "Join or Die" flags albeit in different words and it will not be an exageration. Why is it that people can't get their heads around that fact that ALL history repeats itself. That means that a revolution is not just likely but innevitable in this country.

I'll be damned if I leave a problem of this magnitude behind when I die and have my children and grand children deal with something as horrible as a revolution.

If you base the odds of a revolution on the happiness of the American people then we may see one in the next 12-24 months. How happy will people be when they can't afford groceries?
 

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Destroyer of Ignorance
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The thing of it is that when the American revaluation took place the two sides where relatively equal as far as weapons go that is not the case any more. If a band of patriots / rebels / insurgents try to fight against the us it is going to be pop guns against tanks / fighter jets / bombers / destroyers / aircraft carriers, The pop guns are not going to have much effect. We saw what happened in tiamen square when the student movement tried to defy the government they rolled over them in tanks. The same will happen here I know you think that Americans wont turn on Americans well you are wrong that is what the Chinese students thought and the first few days the soldiers refused then they came back to base and the drivers of the tanks where executed the next day we saw pictures of the tanks rolling over the people. The only way the US will ever have another revolution is if a group of military commanders band together to and stage a coupe ether that or it will have to be a total assault by all Americans on the white house but if you have that kind of support you can vote every one out and start over so why would you assault the white house.
Well that my 2 cents.
There is great power in numbers and the numbers are on the side of the American patriot. If only 5% of Americans got pissed enough to grab a gun and move on Washington, there'd be 15 Million armed and angry folks walking down Pennsylvania Ave. That's more than 25 times the population of DC. Do you really think it would take even that many armed, united people to make every politician beg for their life? Talk about waking a sleeping giant.

The decision must be made by the individual. Are you angry enough, do you care enough, do you possess the courage to do what's right even when 95% of people will say you're wrong?
 

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Are you angry enough, do you care enough, do you possess the courage to do what's right even when 95% of people will say you're wrong?
When 95% of people are happy will you force a revolution on them? Will you drag them to freedom kicking and screaming? The 5% may be right and the 5% may save the 95% from themselves, but that's not what freedom is about.

Freedom should not be restored through tyranny. The majority of people are happy now. If the majority wanted a civil war then we'd have one. If they want to **** away their rights then let them.

God help the poor soul that comes to my doorstep wanting to take away mine, but I won't champion the cause for people that don't want it.
 

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Destroyer of Ignorance
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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
When 95% of people are happy will you force a revolution on them? Will you drag them to freedom kicking and screaming? The 5% may be right and the 5% may save the 95% from themselves, but that's not what freedom is about.

Freedom should not be restored through tyranny. The majority of people are happy now. If the majority wanted a civil war then we'd have one. If they want to **** away their rights then let them.

God help the poor soul that comes to my doorstep wanting to take away mine, but I won't champion the cause for people that don't want it.
Then you don't get it my friend. There is right and there is wrong. Polls and statistics do not change that. The fact that 95% of the population would benefit from the work of 5% is of no concern. It is the right, the duty, of the 5% to restore a constitutional government according to our own founding documents.

Explain how a revolution is tyranny if no one is forcing anyone else to fight the battles that need fighting. If anything, a revolution will be fought to over through tyranny. Tyranny comes in all shapes and sizes ... It doesn't always include putting people into ovens. My not being legally able to own a .50 cal rifle in NY is tyranny, the fact that most Americans have to pay about half the money they earn to the government or face imprisonment is tyranny, the fact that the government can take away your children with only an anonymous allegation of abuse is tyranny.

Just because they will be inconvenienced by the "government restoration process" doesn't mean their rights are being violated. You may want to go freshen up on the bill of rights. The right to a convenient life is not there, and for good reason.

Are you aware that the American independence cause was only initially supported by 4% of the colonists? I guess the founding fathers were tyrants. This is because they were men of integrity, intelligence and great wisdom ... traits that have become quite rare over the last 230+ years.

You talk of "What freedom is about" but you obviously miss the big picture. Freedom is NOT about majority rule. If 95% of the people are OK with living under certain conditions that does not and never will justify the fact that 5% are having their basic constitutional rights violated. Nobody is stopping the 95% from "pissing away their rights", they can do that after we've restored a constitutional government. My concern is that 5% are being stopped from excercising their rights. Let's flip the numbers ... let's say that 95% support a revolution and 5% oppose it. Does it make the revolution somehow more valid? Of course not, because freedom is based on individuals and so long as a single individual's rights are being violated, there is just cause for action. If even one person's rights are taken from them, it is the duty of EVERY American to come to his or her aid ... up to and including a full scale revolution.

You may want to go down to your local police department and turn in your guns because you have missed the entire point of not just the second amendment but of the entire United States Constitution.
 

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To answer your question, no, I do not ever see the US returning to the principles it was founded on. The real question should be, "Will the US ever deteriorate to an intolerable condition?"

While I love the ideology of the founding fathers and their strong emphasis on individual rights, many people seem to be just fine living without most of these ideas--myself included. I'm not saying that I would choose the way things are now over the way they could be, but all things considered, life is still pretty good.

Life and liberty are only worthwhile commodities so long as they allow the pursuit of happiness. People are happy now. They are happy with their TVs; they are happy with their internet and they are happy with their fast food. The majority has spoken: the conveniences afforded by mass organization are worth the corruption that comes with them.

So long as the status quo is maintained, a revolution isn't beneficial. One only becomes beneficial when people become unhappy or believe that unhappiness is imminent. As I've said, the real question is then "Is unhappiness imminent?"

A few months ago I would have said "yes." It was easy to believe that our democracy was broken and corruption was so rampant that it would eventually lead to an intolerable condition. But a few months ago, for the first time in my young life, I saw the government give something back. The overturning of the D.C. gun ban is proof positive that things can go the opposite way. The slow erosion of civil liberties is not imminent after all. The tides can be reversed.

True, our liberty may never again be as pure as it was after the revolutionary war, but it is still at a tolerable level and non-violent politics still work. So long as we private citizens maintain our arms and our spirit of "don't tread on me," the government will have to respect us.

Keep your arms but never shoot when your opponent is willing to negotiate.
I would like to see the glass half full however what I saw with the DC case is almost half of our supreme court vote against an amendment in our Bill of Rights.
 

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If only 5% of Americans got pissed enough to grab a gun and move on Washington, there'd be 15 Million armed and angry folks walking down Pennsylvania Ave.
Right here is the problem if you only have 5% of the people that are willing to fight for this change then that means you will have 95% that are pissed at you and are going to be fighting you every inch of the way.. Trying to get that 15 million people to DC armed to fight is not going to happen as soon as a mob starts to gather and travel towards DC the federal military will be called in and they will take them out in small groups before they can gather. I am not saying that change is not needed but to try and fight the federal government as it stands will just get a bunch of people killed. In my opinion the only really practical way to fix this country is to do it on a state by state level. Remember the Quote "The pen is mightier than the sword" Well it is true in this instance it would be far easer to fix what is broken in government through changing our represenitives then to try and do battel against our fellow country man . There is also the problum of where do you find a leader that can lead and motivate 15 million people that is not corupt and leading with his own agenda in mind. We haven had a leader like that in over a 100 years. So I guess while I can agree that change is good and needed I donr agree that violent revalution is practicel in this day and age.
 
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