Survivalist Forum banner
  • Are you passionate about survivalism? Would you like to write about topics that interest you and get paid for it? Read all about it here!
241 - 260 of 290 Posts

·
You ARE what you IS!
Prepped enough is NEVER good enough!
Joined
·
5,655 Posts
I wear my gun every minute Im awake and its fully loaded. When Im in bed, its in its holster, in my pants, next to the bed.

As Ive said a number of times, I dont leave loaded guns, chamber empty or not, around the house. To many things to go wrong. I do have a couple of loaded guns in lock boxes, but they are supplemental to the gun I wear.





Do you want me to post up those CCTV videos again, where the people who take your advice, and a couple of others died because they couldnt get the gun loaded in time? Im pretty sure I posted a bunch back down the thread.

Your theory is flawed. If you want to carry that way, knock yourself out, but you really shouldnt be telling people that they should follow your advice, as youre doing them a very big disservice.

If someone is uncomfortable carrying a gun properly, then they should get some proper training and learn to properly use and carry the gun.
To each their own. I don't live in anyone's house but mine. This discussion is starting to get "junior high" level so I'm out of it.
 

·
Shill for the Federal Gov
Joined
·
638 Posts
My edc is a revolver, so no "Rack" required. I have to ask though, If you're at home and bad dude comes in or is scoping it out, wouldn't racking a round give you away?

I pretty do the same thing as AK does, it is on me always, when I am asleep it is within reach. All other weapons are locked up, some loaded in finger safes upstairs and downstairs. Everyone has their own way I guess.
 

·
Member
Joined
·
3,997 Posts
Here is what I use to determine if I should carry Locked and Loaded or not, and anymore the area you're in doesn't really mean much. If a trained LEO can't get his side arm out and deployed in 21 feet can you get yours out, cocked and ready to rock during that same length of time? Maybe some of you should get with a friend or two and try it.
 

·
Comic, not your lawyer!
Joined
·
15,112 Posts
Here is what I use to determine if I should carry Locked and Loaded or not, and anymore the area you're in doesn't really mean much. If a trained LEO can't get his side arm out and deployed in 21 feet can you get yours out, cocked and ready to rock during that same length of time? Maybe some of you should get with a friend or two and try it.
The 21' rule is such an absolute poor non-real world scenario. Even in the demonstration, which is largely typically absurd, an unprovoked person has a KNIFE IN HIS HAND, and the gun person waits to draw until the knife person starts sprinting. Here's obvious problems with said scenario.
1. As a civilian, why or when would this ever occur? Are you going around provoking everyone you see? I've never in my decades of life had someone just run at me with a exposed bowie knife intending to stab me.
2. If you see such a person, leave the area. Nobody is making you stand there.
3. Why is this person staring you down with a drawn bowie knife or machete?
4. Since, if I see someone standing there with an obviously drawn knife/machete, I'm going to draw my gun. I can raise it and pull the trigger before he crosses 10'.
5. In the demonstrations, the cop stands stationary. Why? Are his feet in cement? Move lateral. Move backwards. Put an object between you like a table, a car, a tree...
6. And in the video, the observer notes that the bullet might not immediately stop the assailant who was able to still "stab" the cop. So, this point would require you to, always, keep everyone 50' away from you and carry your gun loaded in your hand at all times.

I don't subscribe to this level of paranoia as a civilian, since I'm not a cop and not patrolling in a war zone with people with knives chasing me.

If you believed you need to be at this level of readiness, you probably need to have a 50' standoff at all times in public, at the gym, at restaurants, etc. It's not remotely realistic. Anyone inside 10' is a constant threat REGARDLESS OF THE CONDITION OF YOUR FIREARM, since they could easily move within a few feet and shank you in the throat, particularly from behind.
 

·
Comic, not your lawyer!
Joined
·
15,112 Posts
When you watch police videos, which probably cannot be linked here, with knife wielding attackers, almost every time the cop is easily able to out draw and shoot them dead, sometimes requiring backwards or lateral movement. Plenty of videos online.

That's law enforcement. They are tasked with actively engaging knife wielding dangerous violent sickos, and they wear a uniform many people immediately hate and want to attack. So they are uniquely positioned to 1) confront and 2) face unprovoked attacks.

And since probably nobody here is active duty law enforcement, very little of what a cop does applies to your life. If you're drawing such unprovoked attacks and ire, perhaps you live in a unusually bad area or you need to adjust your behavior or situational awareness.

I carry a loaded gun legally daily nearly everywhere, as it's the responsible prepared behavior, but with some basic situational awareness, I have no worries I'll ever be in a situation such ninjas coming at me from all directions like some cheesy 1980s kung-fu movie.
 

·
What hell, pay attention
Joined
·
8,461 Posts
Lets let reality speak for itself here, yet again. And these are just a couple, there are quite a few if you bother to look.




He can correct me if Im wrong here, but I believe what Bob was getting at with the Tueller thing was "time and distance", and being able to get the gun into action, and how little if any time you actually have to do that. In this case, the knife is the weapon, and could easily be someone with a gun, or whatever. Their weapon is not the point, the point is, do you have time to get your unloaded gun loaded and effectively into action.

Also bear in mind here, that most cops start from an open retention holster, and Ive seen a number of those videos "proving" Tueller, where they didnt make the draw in time.

Now get a buddy and you give it a try, with your simulated "unloaded" gun (or even a simulated "loaded" gun) and from how you carry it concealed and see how well you do.

I believe 1.5 to 2 seconds is what most trainers call an acceptable "draw to rounds on target" time to strive for, and from concealed carry, that can be a challenge, especially with little guns in a deep carry.

And thats with a "loaded" gun thats ready to go, not one that you now have to attempt to charge to get it into action, assuming you have two hands available to do it, and under extreme stress yet.


If you choose to carry a gun, dont you think it should be the gun youre the most comfortable with, shoot the best with, and one you train/practice with on a regular basis, from how you carry it?

If for whatever reason, you choose to carry it unloaded, are you regularly practicing the above and inserting that aspect of things into it, and to the point its done without conscious thought? Whats your plan/drill if you cant use both hands? You can see above in those clips, that in real life, even for military vets (not that that really means anything, but it seems to for some), it very well may not work out as youre being told, and even more likely, if youre not practicing to do it all the time in regular practice.

If and when the SHTF, where is your focus going to be? On the gun, or on the threat?

Shouldn't deploying and shooting the gun be in the unconscious zone of things?
 

·
KOAD; FOAD; ESAD
Joined
·
10,662 Posts
The 21' rule is such an absolute poor non-real world scenario. Even in the demonstration, which is largely typically absurd, an unprovoked person has a KNIFE IN HIS HAND, and the gun person waits to draw until the knife person starts sprinting. Here's obvious problems with said scenario.
1. As a civilian, why or when would this ever occur? Are you going around provoking everyone you see? I've never in my decades of life had someone just run at me with a exposed bowie knife intending to stab me.
2. If you see such a person, leave the area. Nobody is making you stand there.
3. Why is this person staring you down with a drawn bowie knife or machete?
4. Since, if I see someone standing there with an obviously drawn knife/machete, I'm going to draw my gun. I can raise it and pull the trigger before he crosses 10'.
5. In the demonstrations, the cop stands stationary. Why? Are his feet in cement? Move lateral. Move backwards. Put an object between you like a table, a car, a tree...
6. And in the video, the observer notes that the bullet might not immediately stop the assailant who was able to still "stab" the cop. So, this point would require you to, always, keep everyone 50' away from you and carry your gun loaded in your hand at all times.

I don't subscribe to this level of paranoia as a civilian, since I'm not a cop and not patrolling in a war zone with people with knives chasing me.

If you believed you need to be at this level of readiness, you probably need to have a 50' standoff at all times in public, at the gym, at restaurants, etc. It's not remotely realistic. Anyone inside 10' is a constant threat REGARDLESS OF THE CONDITION OF YOUR FIREARM, since they could easily move within a few feet and shank you in the throat, particularly from behind.
Its been changed to 32 ft…just fyi
 

·
Member
Joined
·
3,997 Posts
Lets let reality speak for itself here, yet again. And these are just a couple, there are quite a few if you bother to look.




He can correct me if Im wrong here, but I believe what Bob was getting at with the Tueller thing was "time and distance", and being able to get the gun into action, and how little if any time you actually have to do that. In this case, the knife is the weapon, and could easily be someone with a gun, or whatever. Their weapon is not the point, the point is, do you have time to get your unloaded gun loaded and effectively into action.

Also bear in mind here, that most cops start from an open retention holster, and Ive seen a number of those videos "proving" Tueller, where they didnt make the draw in time.

Now get a buddy and you give it a try, with your simulated "unloaded" gun (or even a simulated "loaded" gun) and from how you carry it concealed and see how well you do.

I believe 1.5 to 2 seconds is what most trainers call an acceptable "draw to rounds on target" time to strive for, and from concealed carry, that can be a challenge, especially with little guns in a deep carry.

And thats with a "loaded" gun thats ready to go, not one that you now have to attempt to charge to get it into action, assuming you have two hands available to do it, and under extreme stress yet.


If you choose to carry a gun, dont you think it should be the gun youre the most comfortable with, shoot the best with, and one you train/practice with on a regular basis, from how you carry it?

If for whatever reason, you choose to carry it unloaded, are you regularly practicing the above and inserting that aspect of things into it, and to the point its done without conscious thought? Whats your plan/drill if you cant use both hands? You can see above in those clips, that in real life, even for military vets (not that that really means anything, but it seems to for some), it very well may not work out as youre being told, and even more likely, if youre not practicing to do it all the time in regular practice.

If and when the SHTF, where is your focus going to be? On the gun, or on the threat?

Shouldn't deploying and shooting the gun be in the unconscious zone of things?
No, you got it exactly right. What they discovered with Tueller was the only way to survive a knife welding attacker within 21' is to maneuver and be prepared to fend him off. The question now is can you reliably load your weapon while fighting someone? Knives don't have to be machete or bowie sized, they can have a 5" or 6" or shorter blade and easily be concealed simply by holding the blade up against your inner arm and still leave you trying to hold your guts in while attempting to rack a round. You do you and I'll do me....
 

·
What would Mal do
Joined
·
4,989 Posts
have done those drills. and as some are saying, yes, LEO training scenarios. closest I think a civilian gets is the typical gas pump or grocery store scenario. Bad guys there scoping out victims who are not paying attention. Most people allow a stranger, no matter how shady looking, to get way too close.

Have had a couple real-world instances where I saw it coming, and responded so as to deter the event as it unfolded.
 

·
Comic, not your lawyer!
Joined
·
15,112 Posts
have done those drills. and as some are saying, yes, LEO training scenarios. closest I think a civilian gets is the typical gas pump or grocery store scenario. Bad guys there scoping out victims who are not paying attention. Most people allow a stranger, no matter how shady looking, to get way too close.

Have had a couple real-world instances where I saw it coming, and responded so as to deter the event as it unfolded.
So you shot them? How did it get resolved? You left out key details friend.
 

·
What hell, pay attention
Joined
·
8,461 Posts
when chamber carry is just wrong.........how about
because I said so!!! it used to work for my Dad!!
Im still hanging over something from 1962 when he told me to jump and then walked off and didnt say to come down yet, so what do you do? :)

Thats about whats going on here, and as usual, "dad" aint seeing any need to back it up, and he just leaves us hanging.

Having grown up in the military, this is a pretty typical thing with those who have been conditioned to "you do as I say, and dont think for yourself, I did that for you". Todd forbid you speak heresy, and go beyond protocol, and do just that, and try and show them that what The Big Green Machine taught you, aint always right. The toe nails come right through the boots and dig right in!

And youd best put your ear plugs in, get ready to cover the ears of any little children, women, and transgendered individuals near by. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
I adamantly believe this.

In my own house, I don't keep guns chambered.

When I go out, I chamber a round, and apply a manual safety.

If feel there is some kind of threat likely, I take it off safe.

If I really think it's bad, I draw.

I feel this is a reasonable way to mitigate the significant threat guns pose to their owners and family members.

I view the quick draw fantasy....as a fantasy. I will never make the decision to kill in less time then it would take to preform the actions of drawing and chambering a round and or removing the safety so the mechanical delay is moot.

I feel the same way about 'the element of surprise' in a defense shooting. Its a fantasy. I will never have the element of surprise in a crime. The criminal will always have that, I will always be re-acting to the threat that he presented first.

I accept that the defensive carrier will always be at a horrible disadvantage. I do not think the increased risk of always keeping your gun instantly ready to fire without a second thought or action does anything to mitigate this, while at the same time it does increase the already far too high rate of accidental death and injury among gun owners.
I agree, I carried ready before but stopped. I came to the same conclusion about timing. I can't risk failure to analyze and think of whats happening and just go off blazing away. Too much risk vrs the second it takes to see the bigger picture. If I end up on the losing end I'm ok with that rather than someone going down cuz he looked like he had a gun or was "up to no good". I couldn't live with myself if I end someone carrying a toy or cell phone or whatever. I'm no trigger happy dude. After an incident I'm sure I'm gonna puke no matter whats going on. I would never want to have to use but if I do I'm still gonna feel like death afterwards.
 

·
You ARE what you IS!
Prepped enough is NEVER good enough!
Joined
·
5,655 Posts
does he also have a video on how one should wipe their ***.

If someone feels more comfortable,
it is still better to carry with an empty chamber than not carry at all.

Maybe I am taking this post the wrong way, it just seems that how a person wants to carry is none of any one's business.
You're not taking it wrong at all 'cause that's exactly how it is. I'm off this thread due to a few "know it all's" and some really "junior high" behavior but I'll reply to yours because it's as spot on as it gets. (y)
 

·
You ARE what you IS!
Prepped enough is NEVER good enough!
Joined
·
5,655 Posts
It's okay to carry on an empty chamber, as long as you have the safety on & a trigger lock too. That way nothing can ever happen. :thumb:
Why not take it a step further and just leave your piece at home with that mentality?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,844 Posts
I wear my gun every minute Im awake and its fully loaded. When Im in bed, its in its holster, in my pants, next to the bed.

As Ive said a number of times, I dont leave loaded guns, chamber empty or not, around the house.
You seem to be doing exactly what you said you don’t do, right there....


No. They wont, and you could very well be at risk as well, as were the people in that one video with that one shopkeeper who flubbed trying to charge his empty gun, and they killed him and I think it was his son who was with him.

Ill say it again, if youre uncomfortable carrying a loaded gun, then you shouldnt. Get some training and we all will be safer.
And I’ll say it again...you’re changing the argument.
The fact is, the guy with the gun didn’t hurt anyone. And that’s the truth, no matter how you spin things.


My edc is a revolver, so no "Rack" required. I have to ask though, If you're at home and bad dude comes in or is scoping it out, wouldn't racking a round give you away?
One would assume that if some dude is scoping your home out, he probably already knows there’s someone there. So what do you mean by “give you away”?

If racking your gun alerts him to the presence of an armed and awake person...chances are he leaves.
If he doesn’t do that....he STILL has to find you.

If you just sit and wait, you’ll be in control of the situation when he comes through your door. If you have a camera or two....you can hunt him to your hearts content. Heck, use your phone to turn on your smart TV for a distraction, or use that app so many have to turn on a light or two.
 

·
What hell, pay attention
Joined
·
8,461 Posts
You seem to be doing exactly what you said you don’t do, right there....
I dont get your point. The only loaded gun thats not locked up, is in my holster, and under my control. What is it youre trying to say?



And I’ll say it again...you’re changing the argument.
The fact is, the guy with the gun didn’t hurt anyone. And that’s the truth, no matter how you spin things.
Im not spinning or changing anything.

The guys with the unloaded guns in these videos did not hurt anyone, simply because they got killed because of it not being loaded, and in that one case, it also cost his son his life.

Isnt the whole argument here carrying loaded vs unloaded?

Some here will tell you its safer unloaded, some of us will tell you its not. Seems there are two different schools of thought going on here, and they are not for the same reasons.

From the standpoint of simple administrative handling, which you shouldnt be doing anyway, it "might" be safer, but when it comes to the real purpose of carrying the gun, its flat out dangerous to you, and likely anyone with you.

Guns are dangerous, as I would hope they would be, and should be, and dealing with that is just part of carrying it.

Maybe the best thing here would be, if you want to carry a gun, but dont want to deal with the responsibility of it, then dont load it or have any ammo in it at all. That would probably be the safest, up until you actually need it. Although Ill bet money someone still gets hurt, because it was thought to be "unloaded".

If youre serious about carrying a gun, then learn how to properly use and carry it. I mean really, how hard is that? Oh, wait. Never mind, I take that last part back. 13 pages of round and round here, I guess its pretty obvious, some still struggle with that.
 

·
Si vis pacem, para bellum
Joined
·
8,045 Posts
My edc is a revolver, so no "Rack" required. I have to ask though, If you're at home and bad dude comes in or is scoping it out, wouldn't racking a round give you away?
Yet there are many who promote the racking of a shotgun so as to immediately instill so much fear in the do bads that they wet themselves and flee.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,844 Posts
I dont get your point. The only loaded gun thats not locked up, is in my holster, and under my control. What is it youre trying to say?




Im not spinning or changing anything.

The guys with the unloaded guns in these videos did not hurt anyone, simply because they got killed because of it not being loaded, and in that one case, it also cost his son his life.

Isnt the whole argument here carrying loaded vs unloaded?

Some here will tell you its safer unloaded, some of us will tell you its not. Seems there are two different schools of thought going on here, and they are not for the same reasons.

From the standpoint of simple administrative handling, which you shouldnt be doing anyway, it "might" be safer, but when it comes to the real purpose of carrying the gun, its flat out dangerous to you, and likely anyone with you.

Guns are dangerous, as I would hope they would be, and should be, and dealing with that is just part of carrying it.

Maybe the best thing here would be, if you want to carry a gun, but dont want to deal with the responsibility of it, then dont load it or have any ammo in it at all. That would probably be the safest, up until you actually need it. Although Ill bet money someone still gets hurt, because it was thought to be "unloaded".

If youre serious about carrying a gun, then learn how to properly use and carry it. I mean really, how hard is that? Oh, wait. Never mind, I take that last part back. 13 pages of round and round here, I guess its pretty obvious, some still struggle with that.
You’re asleep. Nothing is under your control.

It has NOTHING to do with your infinity loop argument about the ability of the user. You know that, you’re just trying to frame the argument. That’s ok....but it gets old, and frankly, it’s insulting. And you know that, too.

You’re shading YOUR decision on the “must deal with bad guys at any cost”.
We are shading ours toward “Must avoid doing harm first, because bad guys cause less deaths than malfunctions and accidents.”

So who has the greater weight of proof that their viewpoint is correct in the majority of cases?

Hint....not you.
 
241 - 260 of 290 Posts
Top