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Comic, not your lawyer!
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That's the crux of this entire thread. I intend to do everything humanly possible to not be the individual who is 'SOL.' I doubt the soldier who is watching arterial spay from his neck for a brief few moments or his guts searching for daylight gets any satisfaction from watching his compadres load up and gun down a terrorist.
How much satisfaction do you think the 90 dead GIs in Iraq, and the 90 GIs prosecuted for NDs, got?
That's not including all those injured. But we lost about 4300 service members. Each death is tragic, but we can focus on the totally avoidable 2% of dead GIs from ADs/NDs.

2% may seem "low" but it's actually perhaps the highest in any category of deaths because unlike combat deaths (comprising most of the deaths) of explosions and gunfire, or rollover deaths which are often unavoidable, 100% of the AD/ND deaths ARE avoidable. And this is a "well trained" sample study.

"Negligent Discharges Kill 90 U.S. Soldiers in Iraq
By Dan Zimmerman
June 7, 2011
"According to Tom Ricks in an intro to a Foreign Policy piece by Billy Birdzell, 90 service members have been killed in Iraq alone by negligent discharges since the beginning of operations there. "
 

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What hell, pay attention
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Sounds like the best bet, if you arent going to actually train them, would be to disarm them all then. ;)
 

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A lot of ignorance in this thread. If people don’t want to carry loaded, why are people so upset about that? I usually don’t carry loaded either. Or do I? I certainly wouldn’t say so on here. I get the merits of the argument but it’s kind of ridiculous. I’m glad that absolutely no one in here has ever tripped and fallen in the woods with a loaded gun, safety non-existent. I have and it’s a miserable experience. Stupid on my part? Maybe but I’m not God and I can’t control everything that nature does so for my part, I will be safe at least sometimes.
 

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Me too. A couple even carried it empty, carrying a second gun, with the thought of smoking the bad guy when the snatched gun didn't fire. Back in the day before retention holsters, and gun retention training.

Dumb idea, but that was a long time ago.
But...it's NOT dumb, unless you refuse to look at it from their paradigm.

These guys were carrying in crowds, I mean crowds that have zero sense of personal space, and the bad guys look just like everyone else. The chances of a really bad guy grabbing for your gun were NOT zero, and the chance to survive that would be a pretty good thing, IMHO.

I mean, the Israeli's also used .22 rifles as "sniper" rifles. They conducted Operation Thunderbolt, made into a movie called the Raid on Entebbe, killed the hijackers and 45 enemy soldiers, and saved 102 of 106 hostages while losing 1 man, and NO ONE has hijacked an Israeli plane since.

But you just go ahead and think you know more than they do.:cool:



If you are that afraid of the gun and incapable of handling and carrying it properly, you have no business carrying it at all, or even handling it.
That's not a very good way of having a civilized discussion.

I mean, we can swap it around, and say "If you are so afraid of the world that you are terrified of having to rack a slide to get your gun running, or are incapable of doing it, then you have no business going outside."

But we all know that's BS. Exactly like your words were.

It's not about being "afraid" or "incapable". It's about making decisions based on your real world threat assessment.
In MY part of the world, people aren't generally drawing down on people at a moment's notice. There's no gangs, no car jacking, no home invasions...so in MY part of the world, an empty chamber is not going to make one iota of negative difference in my life.

That said, there ARE places I go where I carry decocked on a round. Because my threat assessment for that AO is different than for the area around my home.

Not to mention....do the bad guys in these silly discussions always give you chance to draw and shoot? Or is it simply the ninja senses all the cool dudes have so that their situational awareness is so awesome that they will never be surprised?

I'm not buying it. If someone wants you dead, they can make you dead and there isn't much you can do about it, no matter how you carry, nor how fine tuned your spidey senses are.

If they aren't actively killing you, which is the case a vast majority of the time, racking a slide isn't going to be the difference.
 

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What hell, pay attention
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....... I will be safe at least sometimes.
This is what is part of the problem, which time is that and how do you know?

And why not all the time (or as much of the time as humanly possible)?

If you treat every gun as if it were loaded, then why not load it? Youre treating it as if it were, right?

Or do you not trust yourself to be safe with it, either way?

I think a lot of the problem here is a lot, if not most people, WAY overestimate their skills, be it handling or shooting, yet dont really do anything about it beyond telling you they are.
 

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What hell, pay attention
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That's not a very good way of having a civilized discussion.

I mean, we can swap it around, and say "If you are so afraid of the world that you are terrified of having to rack a slide to get your gun running, or are incapable of doing it, then you have no business going outside."

But we all know that's BS. Exactly like your words were.

It's not about being "afraid" or "incapable". It's about making decisions based on your real world threat assessment.
In MY part of the world, people aren't generally drawing down on people at a moment's notice. There's no gangs, no car jacking, no home invasions...so in MY part of the world, an empty chamber is not going to make one iota of negative difference in my life.

That said, there ARE places I go where I carry decocked on a round. Because my threat assessment for that AO is different than for the area around my home.

Not to mention....do the bad guys in these silly discussions always give you chance to draw and shoot? Or is it simply the ninja senses all the cool dudes have so that their situational awareness is so awesome that they will never be surprised?

I'm not buying it. If someone wants you dead, they can make you dead and there isn't much you can do about it, no matter how you carry, nor how fine tuned your spidey senses are.

If they aren't actively killing you, which is the case a vast majority of the time, racking a slide isn't going to be the difference.
Real world is, just what it is. For most of us in the civilian world, its more likely going to be quick and up close, and if youre lucky, you even had a hint it was coming.

Of course, ALL of us practice for that sort of thing, with the gun we carry and from how we carry it, on a regular basis, no matter how unlikely it might be, right?

If youre carrying a gun, then I assume you must be considering a threat of some sort, or why else are you carrying the gun? And if youre carrying it expecting any kind of threat, why isnt it loaded?

If you are a reasonably competent person and have reasonable skills, carrying a loaded gun is not unsafe. If "you" are unsafe, loaded or not, its not going to matter.
 
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NRA Life 1971
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I had a non combat MOS when serving. There were guys with me that had never ever fired a gun.
Do you think basic and twice a year qualifying transformed them?
I grew up hunting and shooting. That's where I got my training.
 

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This is what is part of the problem, which time is that and how do you know?

And why not all the time (or as much of the time as humanly possible)?

If you treat every gun as if it were loaded, then why not load it? Youre treating it as if it were, right?

Or do you not trust yourself to be safe with it, either way?

I think a lot of the problem here is a lot, if not most people, WAY overestimate their skills, be it handling or shooting, yet dont really do anything about it beyond telling you they are.
Because I cannot predict what God will do with nature in the forest and neither can you. I get that you probably hang out in a controlled environment 100% of the time but most of the world does not and especially not hunters.
 

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Real world is, just what it is. For most of us in the civilian world, its more likely going to be quick and up close, and if youre lucky, you even had a hint it was coming.

Of course, ALL of us practice for that sort of thing, with the gun we carry and from how we carry it, on a regular basis, no matter how unlikely it might be, right?

If youre carrying a gun, then I assume you must be considering a threat of some sort, or why else are you carrying the gun? And if youre carrying it expecting any kind of threat, why isnt it loaded?

If you are a reasonably competent person and have reasonable skills, carrying a loaded gun is not unsafe. If "you" are unsafe, loaded or not, its not going to matter.
And again...it's not about "unsafe"....it's about "safer" I'll take your 98% and raise it to 100%, thank you.

And it's not ONLY about the person. Mechanical things fail. Even if you take care of them, sometimes, stuff happens.

Your assumption is off base. I am considering a threat...but it is such a low level of possibility, I would literally feel perfectly safe without the gun. But I also carry a knife, and a flashlight, even though I have no intention of cutting anything, and I'll be home before dark. Not considering using them either....so why carry them?

I am NOT carrying and "expecting" a threat in my day to day life. THAT is why I don't carry it with the chamber loaded.
If I go to places where I "consider" the threat to be higher, even though I don't EXPECT a threat...I'll load the chamber.

And before we go down this route...yes, I DO train both ways, and yes, I DO think about what my situation is every time I transition out of the truck, into a crowd, into a different store or area...so no, I'm not going to rack when I don't need to, or forget to rack when I should.

Just a point of WTF....in the Army, as a guard for the pay officer, we would get an M16 and a mag. NO bullets. The officer had a 1911 and mag...NO bullets.

So yeah...I think I'm OK, compared to that.
 

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Each death is tragic,
It's an interesting article by Mr. Birdzel but he describes men twirling a weapon and shooting themselves, others pointing weapons, loaded or not at other people and having a discharge. I say "loaded or not" because the very act of pointing the weapon at a comrade or, in most cases, a non-combatant should bring strict reprimands. Disclosure: I was never in a combat zone.
I couldn't find his source for the 90 figure but as you say any of those deaths are tragic. We all make choices for which we have to take responsibility. The one thing I do know - if I don't pull my Beretta out of it's holster, flick off the safety and pull the trigger the odds are astronomically high that it won't discharge. Those are odds I'm willing to take especially as I head toward the mid 70s.
 

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Comic, not your lawyer!
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I had a non combat MOS when serving. There were guys with me that had never ever fired a gun.
Do you think basic and twice a year qualifying transformed them?
I grew up hunting and shooting. That's where I got my training.
No offense, but the military you served in was almost certainly night/day versus my experiences in the modern forces, even for non-combat MOS. I was non-combat MOS and while I would have liked more firearms training, at the minimum we had bi-annual life fire qualification on a flat range, plus basic rifle marksmanship, advanced rifle marksmanship, pre-deployment zero and qualification, requalification or weapons function testing upon arrival in theater, and qualification during deployment. Oh, and then there was about a full week of MOUT and simunitions training at Ft. Benning. And I recall doing the fancy electronic video game simulation situational training and qualification at least 3 separate times at 3 different bases. That, plus one could generally seek out additional training.

I'm hazarding a guess that is probably MORE training than most civilian gun owners.

And that's on top of any additional training one might do in his free time, and most people who are in uniform have a private firearm and do their own training of their own free time since it's a life saving skill.

So in my 7 year career, I'd estimate I qualified probably 20 times, took significant advanced rifle marksmanship, plus MOUT simunitions, plus high tech video game threat assessment and reaction and qualification on the video game.

Nobody I knew would have been "untrained" on their assigned weapon. Yet the rules prohibited loaded carry inside the wire and even then, 90 AD/ND deaths in Iraq per that report.
 

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What hell, pay attention
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Because I cannot predict what God will do with nature in the forest and neither can you. I get that you probably hang out in a controlled environment 100% of the time but most of the world does not and especially not hunters.
My real world has been deep woods to inner cities, back and forth on a pretty much daily basis my whole life. Thats been my controlled environment. Work, play, living, whatever. Not counting the long guns, carried a "loaded" handgun or two every minute of that too

Somebodys god has nothing to do with this either. You screw up, its all on you. Although I guess it is easier to blame an invisible friend than take responsibilty. ;)
 

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Comic, not your lawyer!
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It's an interesting article by Mr. Birdzel but he describes men twirling a weapon and shooting themselves, others pointing weapons, loaded or not at other people and having a discharge. I say "loaded or not" because the very act of pointing the weapon at a comrade or, in most cases, a non-combatant should bring strict reprimands. Disclosure: I was never in a combat zone.
I couldn't find his source for the 90 figure but as you say any of those deaths are tragic. We all make choices for which we have to take responsibility. The one thing I do know - if I don't pull my Beretta out of it's holster, flick off the safety and pull the trigger the odds are astronomically high that it won't discharge. Those are odds I'm willing to take especially as I head toward the mid 70s.
Yup, there were all manner of ILLEGAL stupidity to the extent that there was a General Order prohibiting those "trust games" aka "Russian Roulette" (loaded or not) type games. Absolutely stupid. My colleague had a guy in his unit die the day they were going home, shot in the chest in a trust game. But there were plenty of others and as a legal officer who read investigations, I can assure you there were plenty of "let me pull the trigger to prove it's not loaded" situations. I can think of 3 in the Special Forces community involving senior very trained SF members, who did a "desk pop" that was not intended b/c they thought it was unloaded and pulled the trigger to prove it. And I've probably forgotten 10x as many, but those three stand out in my mind.

The bottom line is that if it can happen to highly trained SF folks, and even really well trained Army folks, we all must be vigilant on picking the smartest type of risk-assessment manner of carry. Factors that play, is being in a hurry, fatigue, tired, faulty equipment, bad decision making, stress, poor choice in carry or storage of a weapon, poor choice in people you surround yourself with, etc.
 

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Shill for the Federal Gov
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Real world is, just what it is. For most of us in the civilian world, its more likely going to be quick and up close, and if youre lucky, you even had a hint it was coming.

Of course, ALL of us practice for that sort of thing, with the gun we carry and from how we carry it, on a regular basis, no matter how unlikely it might be, right?

If youre carrying a gun, then I assume you must be considering a threat of some sort, or why else are you carrying the gun? And if youre carrying it expecting any kind of threat, why isnt it loaded?

If you are a reasonably competent person and have reasonable skills, carrying a loaded gun is not unsafe. If "you" are unsafe, loaded or not, its not going to matter.
I agree 100%. Its going to be up close and personal and probably unexpected, because if I was expecting it I would somewhere else. My carry is more of a "Get the eff back, or off" kinda thing that cannot snag on clothes or whatever and be quick.

EDIT: No empty chamber for me
 

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Shill for the Federal Gov
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I do have proper training.

And even before I did I did not shoot myself. In the thigh or otherwise.
How about that, in my second sentence I completely invalidated the assumption your entire argument is built upon. Go me.:D:


Why would I be clearing my gun? while tired or not tired?
My weapons stay loaded, when I received proper training it includes the instructions not to unnecessary screw around with my gun. (It also includes instruction to eject the mag and THEN rack the slide.)
-also instruction to check the chamber AGAIN before pulling the trigger.

It stays loaded, I don't forget it's loaded. It's the idiots who don't know if their gun is loaded who do dumb things thinking their gun is unloaded.

BTW: Work on your termanology.
You "pull or squeeze" the trigger to fire the gun. You "release" the trigger to allow it to reset to set you up for another trigger pull. (Sans a modification such as a binary trigger)


Why?

Who is a commoner?

What if I am not a commoner?

Have you taken a look at Portland recenrly?

No, carrying a loaded weapon is NOT a "highly accident prone thing to do"



Has there been a study about it the sun will come up tomorrow?
No study.... I guess I get to sleep in. :cool:


Note: gun rights rarely happen in optimum.conditions (ie: high noon with an engraved invitation".
Your first notice may be getting hit in the back of the head with a brick and your arm broken.




No. Having sometimes when there is no round in the chamber and sometimes when there is a round in the chamber makes you a dumbass who doesn't know if there is a round in the chamber.

The complete opposite is actually the case.
If you KNOW your weapon is always loaded you KNOW that their is always a round in the chamber and you ALWAYS TREAT IT as if there is a round in the chamber!

I also recomend you look up the definition of "manual of arms"
In your learning (for instance) you will learn that some pistols (like sigs) need their hammer lowered after clambering a round. Others like glocks do not.

All guns do NOT function the same way.

Col Cooper:
Guns are designed be comforting, not comfortable.

They are a tool, life support equipment.
I have fire extinguishers near every source of flame in my house.
I do not chain them to the wall either.
I am not a dumbass.


Again: Portland.
I work in North Portland. Thats why I carry. Thanks Nomad.
 

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Comic, not your lawyer!
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I agree 100%. Its going to be up close and personal and probably unexpected, because if I was expecting it I would somewhere else. My carry is more of a "Get the eff back, or off" kinda thing that cannot snag on clothes or whatever and be quick.

EDIT: No empty chamber for me
Two words. Situational Awareness.

If you are blind to your surroundings to the point someone gets the drop on you, you already lost and will have to wait for an opportunity to counter attack if you choose to. Drawing on the drop, so to speak, is generally very risky.

There's little substitute for good situational awareness.
 

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Shill for the Federal Gov
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Two words. Situational Awareness.

If you are blind to your surroundings to the point someone gets the drop on you, you already lost and will have to wait for an opportunity to counter attack if you choose to. Drawing on the drop, so to speak, is generally very risky.

There's little substitute for good situational awareness.
Situational awareness implies I think something is going to happen. If thats the case I'm not going to be there.

I'd like to think, like everyone else here, that I am totally situationally aware all of the time. The weapon is for those times when I am mistaken about that :)
 

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But...it's NOT dumb, unless you refuse to look at it from their paradigm.

These guys were carrying in crowds, I mean crowds that have zero sense of personal space, and the bad guys look just like everyone else. The chances of a really bad guy grabbing for your gun were NOT zero, and the chance to survive that would be a pretty good thing, IMHO.

I mean, the Israeli's also used .22 rifles as "sniper" rifles. They conducted Operation Thunderbolt, made into a movie called the Raid on Entebbe, killed the hijackers and 45 enemy soldiers, and saved 102 of 106 hostages while losing 1 man, and NO ONE has hijacked an Israeli plane since.

But you just go ahead and think you know more than they do.:cool:
Not sure what my saying the guys I worked with were doing something dumb had to do with Israelis, but OK.

But since you mentioned it, I trained with some Israelis that "weren't supposed to be here", that you would seemingly think were gun Gods......

Scary as all get out in their gun safety.
 

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What hell, pay attention
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Two words. Situational Awareness.

If you are blind to your surroundings to the point someone gets the drop on you, you already lost and will have to wait for an opportunity to counter attack if you choose to. Drawing on the drop, so to speak, is generally very risky.

There's little substitute for good situational awareness.
Situational awareness iś something we've should all strive for, but realistically, isn't something you can keep up 100% in the real world. It just isn't possible.

We have to live our lives and you can't be focused on everything, every moment.

And that part about waiting your turn and your opportunity is very valid, and just proves your point on carrying empty is flawed, and will more likely get you killed than keep you from getting hurt. The are a number of actual, real life video clips showing just that on YouTube and a few other places.
 
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What would Mal do
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I carry every day (I'm working from home today and my carry gun is on me.). I've been a 1911 style guy for too many years to worry about changing platforms. Even my small carry gun is an old colt mustang (still very 1911ish). I'm also a grandfather. My choice is to carry empty chamber. My days and nights do not typically expose me to high probability of danger. I have many advanced courses under my belt, including the privilege of training under several of our area LEO (family and friends made it possible).
If , on the VERY rare occasion, I felt I was going into a high risk situation, then yes, **** n lock.
But I don't relax at the gas pump, etc either. Always trying to give myself enough time and distance.
I'm good with folks doing what they choose, based on their personal life circumstances. Frankly I'd prefer folks who don't train, not go chambered. But I'm not going to walk up to every guy that's printing his big M&P pistol under his shirt and ask him if he's chambered.
Most guys don't agree with me on my choice of having a thumb safety on my plastic gun models as well. But, while i don't typically carry them, my 9mm higher capaicty choices are the Sig M18 and M17. both with the thumb safety that uncle sam has determined might be a good idea.
 
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