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When did Christ begin?
Scripture says that the LORD God is from everlasting
Psa 41:13* Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
Psa 106:48* Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.
The Hebrew word translated LORD is Yehoveh which means eternal one or self existent one. Yehoveh is a derivative of the Hebrew word Hayah translated “I AM” in Exodus 3:14. In Ex 3:16 The LORD God is speaking. Anytime the word LORD is used it is referencing the term “I AM”. The LORD God, God and I AM are all used in this passage concerning God at the burning bush. Jesus used the term “I AM” to refer to himself in the Garden of Gethsemene when the soldiers came to arrest Him. They all fell to the ground then.

Isaiah says that the LORD is the father and redeemer and is from everlasting.
Isa 63:16* Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
Paul in Galatians says that Christ is our redeemer. (the redeemer is from everlasting. See above)
Gal 3:13* Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Micah says that Jesus Christ would be born in Bethlehem and is from everlasting. We know this verse refers to Jesus Christ.
Mic 5:2* But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
So Christ is from everlasting. He had no beginning. His human body had a beginning, but not Him.
 

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John 1:1-5
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.
 

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This was a burning question in the early Church.

In the early 4th century, after Christianity became legal, an Egyptian priest named Arius asserted that Christ had been created by God. And that subsequently was "inferior" to God.

This "Arian heresy" was taken up by large numbers of people in the Eastern Roman empire. Opposed to it was the "Athanasian" (or Orthodox) belief. Which said that Christ had always existed, even before the incarnation.

This dispute was the primary reason the Council of Nicaea was held. In which the Arian viewpoint was condemned. And The Nicene Creed was adopted as the profession of faith of all true Christians. And declared unequivocally that the Son of God had been co-eternal with God the Father.

This theological dispute had enormous consequences. It caused deep divisions in the Roman Empire. More importantly, the Arian belief was the form of Christianity that was used to convert the Germanic barbarians.

When the German tribes invaded and eventually took over the Western Empire, this difference in religious viewpoints prevented the integration of the barbarians with the Athanasian native populace. Who regarded the "heretics" as not Christians at all. This antipathy between the two groups doomed the Western Empire.
 

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Christ is God. He has no beginning or ending. He's eternal and is uncreated for He is the Creator.



Hebrews 7:3, "Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually."

Revelation 1:8, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
 

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This theological dispute had enormous consequences. It caused deep divisions in the Roman Empire. More importantly, the Arian belief was the form of Christianity that was used to convert the Germanic barbarians.

When the German tribes invaded and eventually took over the Western Empire, this difference in religious viewpoints prevented the integration of the barbarians with the Athanasian native populace. Who regarded the "heretics" as not Christians at all. This antipathy between the two groups doomed the Western Empire.
Great analysis. Kudos.
 

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All of that said...Christ is “A” God, the Lord of this Earth, He helped create this earth, and only through Him can we come to live with our Heavenly Father again...but our Heavenly Father, Jesus’ Father, is God as well, and He is the God who will sit in judgement.

Don’t get too wrapped up in the semantics and opposing bad translations. God the Father, and His Son, Jesus Christ, are two beings, with one purpose.
 

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Jesus is "the" God, not "a" god. In John 1:14 the Greek is very specific in describing that Jesus' glory was monogenous that is, of the same substance of the Father. In John 14:8-11 our Lord says of Himself:

"8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves."

To claim that Jesus is only "a" god is to deny the Trinitarian nature of God as He has revealed Himself to be in Holy Scripture. The Scriptures are restated more than clearly in the words of the ancient Athanasian Creed (cir. 6th century):

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."

Christians are not Mormons that believe that Christ was once a man who, having lived His life in a most worthy fashion, became a god and that we can too. There are three persons of the Godhead but only one essence that is God. Trying to explain that simple, but profound explanation has led many into error. It is enough to say only what Scripture says without trying to unscrew the inscrutable.
 

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Actually, it emphasizes the Trinitarian nature as three beings, and not just three facets of one being.

I really don’t care what opinion a bunch of priests argued about then compromised with each other until they agreed on something, hundreds of years after Christ died.

I believe the man that saw God and His Son, saw separate beings, and talked with them. Christ didn’t “become” a God because he lived worthily...he WAS a God, less detached from His Father than most mortals, and lived a mortal life worthily because of it. He still IS a God, because he is His Father’s perfect son, He was resurrected, and He took His place next to our Father as our Savior, as Lord of this world, and as a God.

It makes absolutely no sense that some eternal all powerful being created people for no other reason than to live a life, die, be judged, then sit around being angels or in misery depending on the judgement. Not to mention sending himself or a version of himself to earth to live the die, all in order to play Savior. Why would an omniscient, omnipotent being do that? Or even NEED to do that? For entertainment? I don’t think so. There is a purpose, and becoming angels that do nothing but hang around worshipping God isn’t it.

But it’s OK...you keep believing in a God as explained by a committee, and at some point, one of us will be proven right. Until then...let’s not argue. We both believe in God, we both believe we are saved by accepting Christ as our savior and living worthy of his sacrifice.
The rest is details that must not get in the way of that faith.
 

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God is a Revelated God, revelated to man in its deepest heart. Not all men meet God in their heart but all of them will meet Him face to Face. And some will be able to venerate Him and others to hate Him even more.

God does not have a beginning, but we do because of Him.
God does not have an end, and because of Him neither do we.

We will forever love Him or forever Hate Him. It all starts here.
 

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I think that one of the challenges that we face in our generation is that the Scriptures are approached as though no one had ever read, studied, discussed, or debated them before us. So, in our culture, only our own thoughts count. It’s kind of like studying baseball without ever looking at Babe Ruth, or Willie Mays and assuming that they have nothing to offer us about the sport.

Look, it isn’t my job to make anyone believe anything. People are free to believe whatever they want no matter how mistaken they may be. So I don’t post on this forum in order to make disciples of me. I do present the biblical and historical case for traditional Christianity and part of that is most certainly the biblical teaching of the Holy Trinity. The Confessors of the Athanasian Creed got their conclusions from Holy Scripture and it was done long before being catholic meant being Roman Catholic. The term catholic refers to the one, universally held doctrine of the Christian faith, not Roman Catholicism as it is today. The three ecumenical creeds (Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian) are still around because they are the clear teaching of Holy Scripture, not because they were some compromise agreement by debating priests.

The concept of the Holy Trinity is not to be comprehended by means of human reason. It is simply the way that Scripture is used by God to describe Himself. It should come as no surprise that we can’t get our heads around God because if we could, then we would only have a human sized God. He functions beyond any possible human conception of Him and we are only left with inadequate human language to describe the indescribable. So humans can’t deal with three persons but one God. Good! It is, after all, a matter of faith, not reason.
 

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Actually, it emphasizes the Trinitarian nature as three beings, and not just three facets of one being.

I really don’t care what opinion a bunch of priests argued about then compromised with each other until they agreed on something, hundreds of years after Christ died.

I believe the man that saw God and His Son, saw separate beings, and talked with them. Christ didn’t “become” a God because he lived worthily...he WAS a God, less detached from His Father than most mortals, and lived a mortal life worthily because of it. He still IS a God, because he is His Father’s perfect son, He was resurrected, and He took His place next to our Father as our Savior, as Lord of this world, and as a God.

It makes absolutely no sense that some eternal all powerful being created people for no other reason than to live a life, die, be judged, then sit around being angels or in misery depending on the judgement. Not to mention sending himself or a version of himself to earth to live the die, all in order to play Savior. Why would an omniscient, omnipotent being do that? Or even NEED to do that? For entertainment? I don’t think so. There is a purpose, and becoming angels that do nothing but hang around worshipping God isn’t it.

But it’s OK...you keep believing in a God as explained by a committee, and at some point, one of us will be proven right. Until then...let’s not argue. We both believe in God, we both believe we are saved by accepting Christ as our savior and living worthy of his sacrifice.
The rest is details that must not get in the way of that faith.
...another stealth Mormon.
 

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...another stealth Mormon.
I got drawn back into the Religion Forum because of the Holocaust thread. After reading some other threads here I started to realize it's time to leave for awhile again. This thread confirms it! LOL

Good luck to you and CAT. I don't know how you two keep your sanity in this Protestant snake pit. :D:
 

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I'm thinking Batko is still stuck in the 16th century. Has anyone told him the Thirty Years War has been over since 1648? And we no longer burn Protestant "heretics" at the stake?
 
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