If you can't get home from work, or if you work a greater distance than you listed it would be a necessary thing to have. The get home bag thing has to be adjusted to your own needs. Some work a few miles from home, while others may work 50 miles or more from home.

You mentioned Red Cross Centers. Personally I would not go near them or anything else that is setup as an escape by any organization.

Remember that even if you plan on going home, it may not be possible so carrying a little extra could keep you much more comfortable or even alive. I wouldn't count on the woods being full of game, nor would I use space to carry the items needed to make smores, but would carry what I needed to get through a SHTF situation.

 

i dont think you have been paying attention.

 

Because you die really quickly if you are cold.

 

IMHO, it's a form of normalcy bias. Many folks on the boards camp or hike. Even when they practice primitive skills ...it's still a recreational activity. They build fires. Fires are nice.

That recreational frame of reference gets transposed into notional survival plans or bug out templates.

Many have never encountered wildfire conditions. Many can't envision other human beings trying to kill or rob them. Or comprehend why it could be worth their life to light an ill-advised fire... in a situation so bad that they have already abandoned their home or vehicle.

 

I've been in a situation when a fire was needed to combat hypothermia. I think it saved a couple guys from a bad situation, as did they. I'll have a couple ways to make a fire. Oh and yes I've been in and fought wild fires in the PNW.

 

I've established roaring blazes for hypothermia victims myself...several times. Been in and fought a few fires as well. But I didn't ever need 5 ways to get ignition and a monster modular fire/tinder kit to support it. Or carry all that crap when hiking, ski touring, patrolling, or climbing.

Most people planning a GHB or BOB don't need more than a few basics to accomplish fire making. Nor is it especially likely that they will have time, dire need, or a security situation that allows them to even light a fire. But, like a space blanket, it briefs well...

Nobody is saying to not have a means of making fire. That's a basic outdoor requirement that only an idiot would overlook. I carry a fire making kit with me 24/7 whether I'm in the great outdoors or not. EDC. On demand, I can build a fire at your office work station in about 10 seconds. Or get the same result next to a spun out vehicle buried in the snow (taking a bit longer).

But a lot of the overkill fire making kits are a result of an inordinate emphasis on bushcraft hobby exercises. Either focusing on the most primitive means possible or more redundancy than is actually necessary.

99% of the time a person can do the job with 3 oz of disposable lighter and a magnesium striker. I used to live outdoors for most of the year in the coastal forests and mountains of Washington state. Liquid sunshine or snow for days on end. I don't recall having a real problem lighting a fire. Ever. It really ain't rocket science.

You know those unprepared folks that say they are coming over to your place when SHTF? During a bug out or a get home movement...they'll show up at your fire as well. So will trouble.

 

With this quote, the thread is done. Nails it. Some just like to have skills. Good for you. I just want to get home without problems. Fire might just bring a problem that I don't want to deal with. Cold camp, but where I live not much of a problem. More likely to have heat problems here.

 

Fire in the urban or woodland environment is good for signaling, water purification, and keeping warm. Of course it presents an opsec challenge if not built or used right. having at least 2 ways with make one is critical, but I agree that more is probably a bit excessive.

Sometimes when people pack they get a bit too focused on one key aspect. Thats why the best bags are always under revision.

 

because I like being comfortable

and that entails a good meal and seeing I fequently find myself in places far outside the reach of assistance if i were injured caught in a storm or whatever on my many adventures its a good idea to keep something burnable to cook your trout

and ya while I might preach light weight this and that I do traditionally bring a potato lemon and garlic on my longer camping trips and enjoy it with my first trout

 

Once ran an animal kill class for a bunch of folks without much experience. Last event of a two week survival course:

OK, let's kill the chickens and rabbits. Now let's slaughter the sheep. Now let's build a really big fire and prep the carcasses.

Now I want some of you to range out 100 yards into the woods and forage for the natural edible plants we previously showed you...

They came back grinning as they discovered Nature's Bounty... cans of olive oil, BBQ sauce, garlic cloves, salt/pepper, bags of spices, rice, "wild" carrots and onions, a large grilling rack, and a chocolate sheet cake hidden in the undergrowth. A fine cookout was had by all. Might have been several cases of fine German beer as well.

Never be miserable if you don't have to be. Murphy will balance out the karma somewhere down the line...and deliver a suckfest right into your lap.

I love fires. But I try to ensure that I never have to absolutely rely on having one. My fire kit is small, light, and reliable.

 

I agree that it's probably unnecassary to load up a GHB with multiple items that serve the same purpose = several ways to start a fire , several flashlights , several knives , etc. .
A ghb should be as light as possible and contain just enough to get you home , imo .

Some people go overboard with gear and redundancy .

That said , the ability to make fire is very important . Not only to keep you warm but also to boil water or cook/heat up food .
Making a fire might not be so important if you only had 10 miles to hike . Some people might have to hike a lot further to get home and it might take several days or longer depending on the situation . In that case they may want redundancy just in case an item gets lost along the way .

A b.o.b. is another story .

 

I'm living in small, cold country. It might get as cold as -50 celcius and there is also wind what make it even colder.

Even when i'm living in city, I have to remind you that 80% of our country is covered by woods, 10% is covered by lakes (there is something like over 10 000 lakes here!) And that last 10% is where we are living. And even our cities are covered 50% of woods and green areas.

So even when i'm living in urban area, it take only about 5 min to walk out to the woods from my apartment. And first 3 minutes goes when i put my boots on and open the door.

I'm respecting fire alot. I'm respecting warmth even more. I don't carry firestarters with me all the time, but i do know how the keep myself warm as possible even if i slip into the river...

These pictures are from where i'm living. One of our biggest city. Those are not my pictures, but you get a good picture where i'm living.

Here is couple overwiev pictures about our city and our "downtown":

There is river what seperate our city in two parts. Our city is next to ocean. So you quess it right. Alot of wind comming out there!
Next pictures are straight middle of our "big city".

And this picture are from edge of our city, you can still say that you are living in walking distance away from downtown:

Myself, i'm living in suburban area. About 5 kilometers away from city centre.
These pictures are from my backyard.

Yes, it is a bog. We have alot of bogs everywhere. If you look our maps, you will surprice how much bogs we have here. So be carefully when you are out there! Not all bogs are with logs where to walk. This bog are for tourists...

What you guys are thinking about when you see these pictures?
Do you want to carry compass around? Yeah some of you guys have been yelling for me how it is stupid to carry compass middle of city. : Hopefully this is reality check for all of you guys who say how i'm weekend camper and don't know a***** about woods.
I Must be really crazy when i'm carrying compass all the time and i have lighter, matches and sometimes even firesteel with me.

I have to say, sometimes i wonder why people had to have 5 files and 10 knives in their bob's. But couple fire starters don't be bad thing even middle of the city... And even couple knives are ok (Different knife for different task.) Sometimes you might even wish you have a map and a compass...

There are alot of guys in this forum and alot of different backgrounds. So sometimes something might seem to be useless to have, but it really is ok item to have in somewhere else, where they are living.

I know how to primitively start a fire, but i like alot of lighter. if lighter is out of order, i like matches. And sometimes when everything else fail, firesteel is good last item to have. :thumb: There you have already 3 different method of starting a fire.

 

Here, you just might be next to city, but you are still totally lost. When there is very cold weather and alot of lakes, you have to know how to keep yourself a warm.

We are only small country, but distances might still be very great. As funny as it sound.
If you walk 2 kilometers to the woods and get lost, who are going to find you and when? Even if they track your telephone they have pretty hard time to find you.
And you too easily walk about circle if you don't know how to keep yourself walking straight lines... And even if you do know, wait when it get dark. :

Keeping yourself a warm is main thing here. You don't going to die in hungry or thirsty, you don't live long enough if you don't keep yourself a warm.

Firstly you keep yourself a warm, and you DO find drinkable water about everywhere! So your main concern is still keeping yourself a warm because you don't die right away if you are hungry.

I have to say i have been so cold that i couldn't open my front door anymore with my keys, my hands just didn't work anymore. that have happened multiple times even when i had my winter gears.
I have been middle of the storm and in very cold conditions hundreds of times...

I don't respect fire too much, but i do respect everything what keep me warm. During coldness that might mean also some sort of fire.

 

I look at it very simply:

When I make an INCH Bag, a BOB, a Get Home Bag, a 72 Hr bag, a bivouac belt, or what have you, sure I assemble it with an objective in mind (in order: taking to the wilds and never coming back, getting out of "Dodge", getting from work to home, making the best til help comes, carrying the limited essentials, etc).

On the other hand, I don't rigidly stick to those plans. During SHTF, let alone TEOTWAWKI, a bad situation can get worse in seconds. I always try to assemble my bags and kits for the planned use, but slip in extended, alternative, and multiple use items where I can.

To me, fire is one of those things. Sure, for my Get Home bag, most times I will be able to get to my home, or other shelter, long before I need to worry about making a fire. Even in a severe earthquake that will be the case.

What if, though, my bag is all I have and I am forced to shelter in place (say, a chemical spill or a biological attack) instead of heading for home? What if, adding to that scenario, it is winter and the power goes out?

To me, multiple sources of fire are a light, effective piece of multi purpose kit everyone should carry. You can trade the spares if you want...to some other survivor that has no fire. Maybe you lose one, or it breaks...whatever.

Besides, as someone who used to be qualified as a Wilderness Survival instructor I can give you one piece of experienced advice: in a disaster you will need fire eventually, and I can tell you first hand no matter how much practice you have with primitive techniques of fire making, in worst case scenarios primitive methods are a severe shooting pain in the buttocks. There are some I never mastered to the level I would want to trust my life on.

Oh, and any instructor who tells you they are equally proficient in every primitive means of making fire, let alone if they say regardless of conditions, is flat out a liar...unless what they tell you is that they stink at them all.

For example, Bow drill I was not bad with, but the stick done by hand I had a heck of a time keeping the rhythm. Solar ignition techniques are, IMHO, unreliable at best; they depend too much on weather, the lens quality, and a super steady hand. Flint and steel I had good and bad days with; in crappy conditions it is a pain. One match fires: no prob even in poor weather.

I could go on but I am sure you get the point: I know that primitive fire making is something I am weak in, so I carry LOTS of fire making and learned lots of ways to preserve it, carry it, and such.

The 5 P rule.

 

Why?

Do people really think they're going to be hiking home from work after SHTF, and somewhere along them 10 miles hike through the suburbs they'll need to start a fire in an alley behind the 7-Eleven?

Because they're watching too much Dual Survival.

 

a way to start a fire ... From an urban survival perspective, why do people put such an emphasis on a prep that I consider of minor usefulness???

Two questions:
1. Why do you consider fire starting to be minor usefulness? It is hard for me to imagine much that could be more useful in a survival situation.

2. Why does your perspective of survival change with your locale? Meaning, why would survival priorities change? See the Rule of 3.

 

For me,
It's cheaper than water filters, so I can afford to prep but still live a happy life today.

Fire wood is easer to find than gas (salvaged from walls or garages)

And the big one, around here we get 100 frost free days OR LESS per year!! I assume if I needed this gear, it would be winter.

 

Keep in mind that the OP's topic concerns redundant fire making means for BOBs & GHBs in an Urban Survival situation. Not wilderness.

In some major natural disasters (earthquakes, tsunamis, etc.), towns or cities will experience uncontrolled fires due to destruction. During social upheaval like rioting, the same thing. You'll probably have to detour around a fire at some point. Tinder kits? Useful, but urban/suburban areas are tinder. That's why we employ fire departments.

There will be plenty of fire (and fuel for fire). Also plenty of available in-extremis shelter.

You'll likely not need a bow drill...or backup blast match to your backup fire steel to your backup metal match to your backup fresnel lens to your backup matches to your backup peanut lighters to your backup BICs...all reinforced with Vaseline balls, jute, tire inner tube, dryer lint, solid fuel tabs, reactive chemicals, leather pouched birch fungi/cat tails, and steel wool/batteries.

I think the OP's point is not whether fire is good (it is) or whether you should have fire making implements (you should). Rather, there seems to be a fascination with carrying umpteen ways to make a fire when necessity for that fire is probably low. If you aren't dressed for the wet or cold, you're probably not getting home (or to your BOL) anyway. That warm fire may keep you temporarily alive, but at some point, you need to start covering ground to a destination.

During SHTF, a fire serves as a visual and olfactory beacon for two legged predators and needy strap hangers. Best to do without if possible. If you've equipped yourself properly...it certainly is possible. If you have to have a fire just to survive the day (or night)...you've got other more serious equipment issues. Plan accordingly.

Not down on fires; just putting things in context. And I agree that a lot of the fire-making discussion on this forum is a direct result of current survival shows on TV and internet video. Which is all good... from a teaching point/skill development frame of reference. Just not that critical in reality.

On the other side of the coin, I'm amazed at the people I meet who don't religiously carry a lighter or a pocketknife at all times. Folks like that will show up at your doorstep or bivouac with their hands out for free stuff. Show me someone who routinely carries at least a lighter, knife, wrist compass, jacket, and a CCW...and I'll show you a thinking person who has weighed survival odds.

"Do you have a lighter?"
"Oh no... I don't smoke."

 

"Do you have a lighter?"
"Oh no... I don't smoke."

That's why they carry a 9v battery and steel wool.

 

Carrry a Torch lighter they can be very useful in starting a damp wood fire.

http://www.thinkfuntoys.com/jet-flame-1300c-butane-torch-lighter.html

 

I dont get it either you see guys carrying all kinds of things to start a fire. One bic will last for over 1000 uses.

 

And yet, it only takes ONE time for that to fail and you are wishing you had a ferro-rod

 

Although shelter is usually "more" important than a fire to combat hypothermia, there are times that both are needed and/or fire will work when you don't have shelter. How about when you fall in the frozen creek, or maybe wet up to your knees. I have been in places that I literally had ice on my pants within 2 minuets of getting out of a stream that I had to cross to get out of my situation. Fire is a necessity at this time. I have also been caught in blizzards when elk hunting at about 7,000 feet up. Not much shelter at that elevation. A fire bed (coals buried and then you lay on it, like having a heating pad under you) was essential for survival. Also a Dakota fire hole was the only way to heat soup since the wind was blowing about 40-50mph, sideways. In Western Oregon where I live, having a way to dry out things in the winter is essential. It's called fire. If you are living off the land fire cooks, boils, smokes, pasteurizes, kills parasites, etc.
Still want to know why you need to have a way to make fire?

 

thats why I take a tent and a fuel can stove last trip the day we had to hike out we had 60mph winds was 38 degrees and pouring and trees were breaking and falling in the mountians

I was like screw making a fire and busted out my little propane canister and cooked myself a big warm breakfast under my tents rainfly before i had to walk a several miles in that crap

and thats the reason for multiple ways to make a fire as well

just out of curiosity do you not carry a shelter of some kind?

 

I don't see a single person on this thread advocating not being able to make a fire or the fact that fire is valuable.

The question was why so many folks concentrate upon excessively redundant fire kits but ignore other equally important items.

I live at 8000 feet. It will be snowing here until at least June. I love fire. I burn wood every day. But I don't carry around a fire kit that weighs more than a handgun.

Urban situation. Context.

 

i have not seen anyone advocate that I tipcally carry a altoid tin sized fire kit had flint steel some charcloth in the tin a lighter or two and a tobacco pouch with pencil shavings and a pencil sharpener to process wet fingerlings into good tinder to use with the charcloth

weighs almost nothing?
my cook set weighs a bit more as its more substantial but I have not seen anyone advocating say carrying a gallon of gas with you

perhaps if you could elaborate on what you deem excessive over things more needed would help the discussion progress because i am not entirely sure what your getting at

 

One is none, two is one. Redundancy is needed to ENSURE survival. If you have a plan A and B, you need a plan C. One, two, and three routes to get to your BOL. Fire is #1 in cold weather and #2 in hot weather on my list. Water puifier, warmth,wild animal deterent, light, cook food, dry clothes, keep bugs away, signaling, etc. Its just common sense.

 

One is none, two is one. Redundancy is needed to ENSURE survival. If you have a plan A and B, you need a plan C. One, two, and three routes to get to your BOL. Fire is #1 in cold weather and #2 in hot weather on my list. Water puifier, warmth,wild animal deterent, light, cook food, dry clothes, keep bugs away, signaling, etc. Its just common sense.

you mean like a fire?

 

i don't think you will survive. wtshtf....

 

Farmer John,

Yes I do, at minimum a large foil faced tarp, sometimes a tube tent, it depends on what I am doing, how light I am traveling, and if it's just me or with someone/group. And I also carry a small folding stove with fuel tablets, but that is for real emergency's.

 

I also have been holed up for 2-3 days because of the weather/snow. How much propane are you going to carry? I will say that when above timber line propane is really one the best (no wood) as long as it's not so cold that the canister freezes up. I do like the white gas rigs even better. For some trips I also take my old Sterno stove and tuna cans filled with wax & coiled cardboard. I have used this for years. Got invited to a day hike with a group of yuppies with all the latest fancy $$$$ gear. The hike was sponsored by a local outdoors shop. Boy were we (wife & I) out of place with logging boots, jeans, and GI surplus butt bags. HOWEVER, we had hot soup and sandwiches for lunch along with a can of Mandarin oranges. The group had granola bars and some other cardboard tasting crap. On the way back we all stopped at an old USFS shelter where the sponsors put on a demo for different types of stoves, along with boiling times. Not really being part of the group we sat a little ways apart, and decided to have some tea. I whipped out the stove lit the tuna can and had a GI canteen cup full of water boiling before any of the test stoves. We were drinking tea while they were still waiting. This did not go unnoticed, and soon people were asking us about our equipment. The expert tried to say that our stove would not work at high altitudes, whereupon we mentioned the we had no trouble at 9,000-10,000ft. Our friends could hardly stop laughing. We were NOT ever invited back for another hike.