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Backwoods Stalker
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Many of us resent the support we must give those who do not pull their own weight. Is there a better solution? We have those who won't work and support themselves, thouse who due to illness or mental defect cannot, and those who would but they have so many roadblocks placed in front of them (many of their own doing) that they will not get the opportunity. How do we deal with this without destroying ourselves in the process. Yes I can feel the tempers rising now but really, what do we do?

Three examples: One. An individual who due to serious illness or injury cannot work or support themselves. Two. Those who have committed a serious crime and while incarcerated saw the light of reason, and now truly want to contribute, but the record keeps them from finding work. (Don't say it can't happen . In todays job market there are far too many non-felons looking for work, to assume that a felon would be considered over an honest person with a great work record.) Three. Those who want to work but due to injury or illness, would have to take serious narcotic or other medication, in order to do a regular job... making them a libility in the workplace,(not everyone is the brightest crayon in the box) and are not qualified for a 'sit down job'. I did'nt include the folks who are just plain lazy and think the world owes them, as they deserve nothing...other than a meal at the soup kitchen, and a visit to the free VOLENTEER clinic every now and then...if that!

What as a nation can we do to take care of those who cannot, help those who have the desire but not the skills, or social acceptability to obtain a job,
and deal with the folks who just won't. Can we find a reasonable alternitvive to our system of welfare, food stamps, ssi, etc., and still be humane enough to consider human rights. As the leader of the free world, we can't have people by the thousands starving in the streets. I get just as mad as anyone else at the freeloaders, but can we not find a viable solution to encourage producitivity, discourage the leeches, and protect the taxpaying worker, the people who want to contribute, but are held back by whatever?? It is a problem that I as well as many others would love to see solved, while we still have a few hard earned dollars!!

Preppers/survialists are by nature people who search out and impliment solutions...I would be interested in hearing the thoughts of others. I believe that there is a solution to every problem ( High Explosives inc.) There is a solution to this one which does not entail the constant support by the workers of this nation, or letting people die from starvation or exposure...even if I feel that that's what some may deserve.

I ask you men and women, because I respect the opinions you share (the vast majority of them anyway), and because as I stated above, your natural problem solving ability.

Okay have at it...who knows if we approch the problem seriously, and with vision...we might change national policy...ya never know!:thumb::thumb:
 

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Backwoods Stalker
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Step 1. Go to church.

Step 2. Give to the church

Step 3. The church helps those in need.

Voluntary Charity as compared to Forced Charity (taxation + welfare)
Outstanding...now how do we impliment the charity to insure that each gets a portion equal to their --real need--. (as opposed to the leeches who just take away from those who are truly in need)...I have a certain amount of distaste for those who take from the church (or anyone else) under false pretence; they need saving...not charity.:confused:
 

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Zombie Hunter
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I dont know but I have seen plenty of people who are MR (mentally retarded) be able to count cans and have satisfaction from doing menial jobs such as that. There is a job out there for everyone, just people may need to drop their standards to contribute to society or society should not have to contribute to them. Such as licking envelopes, filling out papers, typing etc. Some one has to do them.
 

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Outstanding...now how do we impliment the charity to insure that each gets a portion equal to their --real need--. (as opposed to the leeches who just take away from those who are truly in need)...I have a certain amount of distaste for those who take from the church (or anyone else) under false pretence; they need saving...not charity.:confused:
Now you want to regulate the charity? OK, lets set up a gov't oversight committee to be sure that those receiving the charity are deserving. We'll have to pay for it. Everbody pitch in.


No, give voluntarily to those in need. It isn't always monetary gifts. Need to eat? John that usually sits in the front row owns a construction business and would be glad to pay you to run a shovel.

Need money for an emergency house repair? There are members of the congregation talented in making those repairs.
 

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Backwoods Stalker
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Now you want to regulate the charity? OK, lets set up a gov't oversight committee to be sure that those receiving the charity are deserving. We'll have to pay for it. Everbody pitch in.


No, give voluntarily to those in need. It isn't always monetary gifts. Need to eat? John that usually sits in the front row owns a construction business and would be glad to pay you to run a shovel.

Need money for an emergency house repair? There are members of the congregation talented in making those repairs.
Not regulate charity...but find an alternitive to the current system of disbursing tax dollars, and one which allows folks to contribute and support themselves, if at all possible. Be positive, it's a social problem and I feel certain there is an alternitive. There is so much abuse in the federal system, there will be abuse in any system...but there must be a way to insure that people get what they truly need, without some draining the stock while selling what they are given out the backdoor. I do not advocate Govt. involvement in charity, but how does one insure that those who are starving get their portion, and not let them starve, and prevent others from robbing the system,. When so many have a problem with the present Govt. system, how do we fix it, be it public or private. It's an exercise in planning...that's all.

Do we as humans, and americans just complain, or do we fix a broken system?? This is the question. If we decide it needs fixing, how do we do it. I only want to hear ideas...and yes sometimes I may ask retorical questions, no offence intended. I hate to say it, but sometimes getting pis#ed off stimulates ideas...not all of which are bad!:thumb:
 

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Information is Ammunition
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I just lost my job yesterday, and I'm even hesitant about applying for unemployment. Mostly because every time ive applied, my formed company lies and says I left on my own. by the time i could hire a pro honor and go to small claims court over it, I usually have another job and cut my losses. I can't win a legal fight against a corporation.
 

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Consent Withdrawn!
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I just lost my job yesterday, and I'm even hesitant about applying for unemployment. Mostly because every time ive applied, my formed company lies and says I left on my own. by the time i could hire a pro honor and go to small claims court over it, I usually have another job and cut my losses. I can't win a legal fight against a corporation.
Sorry to hear that, Dwind.

I lost my job over 6 months ago. Down here there are 12 people for every job opening. I've been living off severance, but that ran out. So now we're living off savings.

I still look for jobs every day and pray.

Good luck.

But, as for this thread: why don't we just work and let the gubment send us what they want us to have. That way we'll all be equal, everybody gets the same. Nobody has an unfair advantage, nobody gets special treatment.

I'm sure they'd do a better job than little ol' me trying to decide what to do with my money.
 

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Backwoods Stalker
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I just lost my job yesterday, and I'm even hesitant about applying for unemployment. Mostly because every time ive applied, my formed company lies and says I left on my own. by the time i could hire a pro honor and go to small claims court over it, I usually have another job and cut my losses. I can't win a legal fight against a corporation.
Very sorry to hear the news. Being a musician my jobs come in spurts...sometimes I get stedy work for weeks or months at a time, sometimes a gig or two a month. I mow lawns, wash cars, help in farming (mostly tobacco, and other odd jobs to make ends meet. good luck with the job search ...everyone. i get where your comming from!!
 

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In my area: 200 applications for most jobs. Many are seeking jobs even at low pay and part time. I spent 7 months looking and finally found a part time under employed job. Job requirements and amount to learn far exceeded the wage. After 6 weeks of it and more training ahead, my health began to suffer and finally had to just leave. My interpersonal networking with people I know landed me another job a few days ago. Pay is low, part time but with my other resources I believe we will make it.

To help those who really can't work, donate to a trustworthy charity you have researched.
 

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It can be frustrating, working hard to not only take care of yourself and family on a daily basis, but also preparing for an uncertain future.
- Criminals need to be working while they do their time in my opinion. The work they do can both help support themselves and do things that contribute to charity (farming veggies that both feeds them and some charity/soup kitchen).
- Mentally infirm should be taught to work as they can so that they are contributing in some manner. Those that are so ill they can't are a straight up charity. As humans, we should do our best for them. Hopefully with family or caretakers, but if not, than in institutions that have strict over sight.
-Those that won't work, should either be forced to or placed on an old fashioned institution such as a "poor farm". These are shelters where work is required to support the shelter (garden, cleaning, community work).
-Those that are simply "down on their luck" thru chance and circumstance, should be helped through charity such as community or church groups, offering food and help with odd items (have heard of car pools for job finding, help with utilities etc) until they get back on their feet. I've heard of "hand up" groups where families adopt families and provide counseling and friendship, ideas and some cash even.

There have been poor people for thousands of years, but "entitlements" for less than a hundred. There are ideas out there that can be brought out, dusted off and updated.
 

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Backwoods Stalker
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
It can be frustrating, working hard to not only take care of yourself and family on a daily basis, but also preparing for an uncertain future.
- Criminals need to be working while they do their time in my opinion. The work they do can both help support themselves and do things that contribute to charity (farming veggies that both feeds them and some charity/soup kitchen).
- Mentally infirm should be taught to work as they can so that they are contributing in some manner. Those that are so ill they can't are a straight up charity. As humans, we should do our best for them. Hopefully with family or caretakers, but if not, than in institutions that have strict over sight.
-Those that won't work, should either be forced to or placed on an old fashioned institution such as a "poor farm". These are shelters where work is required to support the shelter (garden, cleaning, community work).
-Those that are simply "down on their luck" thru chance and circumstance, should be helped through charity such as community or church groups, offering food and help with odd items (have heard of car pools for job finding, help with utilities etc) until they get back on their feet. I've heard of "hand up" groups where families adopt families and provide counseling and friendship, ideas and some cash even.

There have been poor people for thousands of years, but "entitlements" for less than a hundred. There are ideas out there that can be brought out, dusted off and updated.
Excellent points!! I like the idea of a work farm, a lot...I can feel empathy for all who are just unfortunate...it's the plain old free loaders who think somehow they are owed something that get me fired up! I have no sympathy for that mindset! There have alwats been the less fortunate always will be...true...and perhaps it is time to "dust off some old ideas". Thank You for a interesting thoughtful post. All the best to you!!:thumb::thumb:
 

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Survivus most anythingus
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Many of us resent the support we must give those who do not pull their own weight. Is there a better solution? We have those who won't work and support themselves, thouse who due to illness or mental defect cannot, and those who would but they have so many roadblocks placed in front of them (many of their own doing) that they will not get the opportunity. How do we deal with this without destroying ourselves in the process. Yes I can feel the tempers rising now but really, what do we do?
I think the first thing you have to do is...do as I did. I used to resent a lot of people on welfare and thought they were the big suck in my life according to my paycheck as well.

Then I simply looked at the big picture and came to understand that the little people, their fault, accident, nobody's fault, are not really the ones putting the screws to me or anyone else paying taxes.

Look at your county or city government and then look to your state government. Do you see the nice fat salaries politicians and the various bureaucrats are making?

Now look to the federal government, look at the same. The massive political machine and the incredibly massive bureaucratic apparatus and now add in the billions in foreign aid we simply give away, a lot of it to our enemies...and our "friends" in many cases sure as hell wouldn't fit my definition of a friend...every year this goes on. How many American Citizens, for example, does it take to fund our aid package that Mexico receives every year? Something to think about.

I don't want to fight about it and I don't want to say it in a nasty way because I like you, but I really think you, like many others, are looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

Complaining about welfare recipients in our day and age is akin to complaining about the mosquitoes of the Amazon who are so large they need air traffic controllers but all the while casually ignoring the Piranha/Pirhana who are taking you apart under the water you're wading in.

The people you are talking about are not even a blip on the radar screen compared to everyone else dipping their beak.

- Criminals need to be working while they do their time in my opinion. The work they do can both help support themselves and do things that contribute to charity (farming veggies that both feeds them and some charity/soup kitchen).
We used to have prisons, there might be a few of them left, that had their own farms, dairies, you name it.

These criminals that need to be working while they are serving their sentence, do they need to be paid for that work as well or should they just be slaves?

- Mentally infirm should be taught to work as they can so that they are contributing in some manner. Those that are so ill they can't are a straight up charity. As humans, we should do our best for them. Hopefully with family or caretakers, but if not, than in institutions that have strict over sight.
The only problem with bringing back asylums in a big way is the fact that when the numbers get low and there is money to be made, they will fill those asylums any way they have to.

-Those that won't work, should either be forced to or placed on an old fashioned institution such as a "poor farm". These are shelters where work is required to support the shelter (garden, cleaning, community work).
And when they refuse to be enslaved, do you then threaten them with prison or shoot them on the spot?

-Those that are simply "down on their luck" thru chance and circumstance, should be helped through charity such as community or church groups, offering food and help with odd items (have heard of car pools for job finding, help with utilities etc) until they get back on their feet. I've heard of "hand up" groups where families adopt families and provide counseling and friendship, ideas and some cash even.
I can tell you from personal experience that if you are simply "down on your luck," you're not going to get any help. If, however, you put all of your rent money up your arm for two months straight, the Salvation Army will pay your rent, two months rent with a signed eviction notice from a judge, and they will do that once a year.

I know because I tried to obtain help with one month's rent in the past and no one, no organization would help unless it was two months in the rear, they would do it once a year and would not help you until your sh!t was ready to go out on the sidewalk.

There have been poor people for thousands of years, but "entitlements" for less than a hundred. There are ideas out there that can be brought out, dusted off and updated.
Can we get the god-damned illegal aliens into one of these poor farms? :D:

Excellent points!! I like the idea of a work farm, a lot...I can feel empathy for all who are just unfortunate...it's the plain old free loaders who think somehow they are owed something that get me fired up!
Then you should just be boiling over when you consider that we give foreign aid to the biggest bunch of freeloading bastards you could ever have the misfortune of examining.
 

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I think the first thing you have to do is...do as I did. I used to resent a lot of people on welfare and thought they were the big suck in my life according to my paycheck as well.

Then I simply looked at the big picture and came to understand that the little people, their fault, accident, nobody's fault, are not really the ones putting the screws to me or anyone else paying taxes.

Look at your county or city government and then look to your state government. Do you see the nice fat salaries politicians and the various bureaucrats are making?

Now look to the federal government, look at the same. The massive political machine and the incredibly massive bureaucratic apparatus and now add in the billions in foreign aid we simply give away, a lot of it to our enemies...and our "friends" in many cases sure as hell wouldn't fit my definition of a friend...every year this goes on. How many American Citizens, for example, does it take to fund our aid package that Mexico receives every year? Something to think about.

I don't want to fight about it and I don't want to say it in a nasty way because I like you, but I really think you, like many others, are looking through the wrong end of the telescope.
No fight, just discussion. Your points are valid, as are ours. However, part of the solution is to reverse the mind set that created the problem in the first place.




We used to have prisons, there might be a few of them left, that had their own farms, dairies, you name it.

These criminals that need to be working while they are serving their sentence, do they need to be paid for that work as well or should they just be slaves?
These people get free shelter, free education, free medical care and free food. If they are working, they are working for that support. At the surrent time, any work a prisoner does, they get paid for (nominally) to be used towards needed items/extras. The system I mentioned doesn't change that. However, the costs of housing/food go down with my suggestion. The men aren't sitting around all day getting into trouble and they even help the community. This does not equate to "slavery", however the crimes demand a certain servitude in my opinion.



The only problem with bringing back asylums in a big way is the fact that when the numbers get low and there is money to be made, they will fill those asylums any way they have to.
I admit that asylums was the most difficult. However, properly over seen by community, it could work. Money is something that always is an issue and can make things tricky. However, we are talking about an option.



And when they refuse to be enslaved, do you then threaten them with prison or shoot them on the spot?
no, you don't "shoot them on the spot" but neither do you give them aid. "Enslaved" is an interesting term for what I have suggested. It sounds like a liberal idea...if someone is not working, and that trend continues for generations because of handouts, that is real enslavement. To work to earn your keep (shelter,food, care) is not enslavement, it is life. The quality of return for your labor is still your choice. You can work in the private sector at a better paying job if you work towards that goal.



I can tell you from personal experience that if you are simply "down on your luck," you're not going to get any help. If, however, you put all of your rent money up your arm for two months straight, the Salvation Army will pay your rent, two months rent with a signed eviction notice from a judge, and they will do that once a year.

I know because I tried to obtain help with one month's rent in the past and no one, no organization would help unless it was two months in the rear, they would do it once a year and would not help you until your sh!t was ready to go out on the sidewalk.
with the methods that I mentioned above, the thinking about charity would change. It would no longer be an "entitlement" type of thing. Charity should be private and community based. If people don't like how it works, they can get on the board and work to change it. When it is in the hands of the federal government, there is no change except to throw more money at the problem


Can we get the god-damned illegal aliens into one of these poor farms? :D:

Then you should just be boiling over when you consider that we give foreign aid to the biggest bunch of freeloading bastards you could ever have the misfortune of examining.
Yes! I am boiling over at the thought of giving this aid. Can we put the illegals on one of those farms? Nope, put them on a bus and send them home. Put some out of work guy on patrol at the border and let him know that his security, his job and his family's food depends on him not letting anyone past.
Liberal ideals got us into much of the problems we are in. Charity is something I believe, we should all practice. However, not as we have been doing it. It has created an entitlment mentality and generations of people who don't even think about going to work. I also believe that it has broken up the traditional family as we knew it. If you don't have to work at something, it looses it's value.
 

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0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13,
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I just lost my job yesterday, and I'm even hesitant about applying for unemployment. Mostly because every time ive applied, my formed company lies and says I left on my own. by the time i could hire a pro honor and go to small claims court over it, I usually have another job and cut my losses. I can't win a legal fight against a corporation.
Sorry to hear about you losin' your job. Try for unemployment anyway, don't let the a-ho interference dissuade you. Yes it will be frustrating and possibly a waste of time, but if you do get unemployment, life until you find another job will be much easier. You don't want to be homeless and job-hunting. Sorry if I sound like I'm lecturing, but I don't like that defeatist tone I'm hearing. Good luck with, well, everything. :) :thumb:
 

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American fearmaker
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Dwind, you have far too much talent and ability to stay unemployed for very long. You're too smart a cookie to let the loss of a job effect you much, if anything, at all. Now get out there and either find a new job or invent a new job for yourself. Heck, if nothing else, you can always become a Chippendale dancer or something. Go! Do it! NOW!!! Good luck, pal. I'm rooting for ya.
 

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Confused,but not Lost
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What happened to families taking care of each other? Where did that all go? In my family we were all told stories from the Depression, and how they worked to take care of each other and even close neihbors,and thats how I was raised,pretty much the same with my wifes folks, they were from Germanyand thru the war they did the same. Today I take care of my family, and I also look out for the folks on either side of my home and when things happen like the guy next door losing his job people pitched in and helped watch kid or brought over a dish to help. Have we really lost all of this?
 

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What happened to families taking care of each other? Where did that all go? In my family we were all told stories from the Depression, and how they worked to take care of each other and even close neihbors,and thats how I was raised,pretty much the same with my wifes folks, they were from Germanyand thru the war they did the same. Today I take care of my family, and I also look out for the folks on either side of my home and when things happen like the guy next door losing his job people pitched in and helped watch kid or brought over a dish to help. Have we really lost all of this?
Families are dispersed because of the job market.
 

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Many of us resent the support we must give those who do not pull their own weight. Is there a better solution? We have those who won't work and support themselves, thouse who due to illness or mental defect cannot, and those who would but they have so many roadblocks placed in front of them (many of their own doing) that they will not get the opportunity. How do we deal with this without destroying ourselves in the process. Yes I can feel the tempers rising now but really, what do we do?

Three examples: One. An individual who due to serious illness or injury cannot work or support themselves. Two. Those who have committed a serious crime and while incarcerated saw the light of reason, and now truly want to contribute, but the record keeps them from finding work. (Don't say it can't happen . In todays job market there are far too many non-felons looking for work, to assume that a felon would be considered over an honest person with a great work record.) Three. Those who want to work but due to injury or illness, would have to take serious narcotic or other medication, in order to do a regular job... making them a libility in the workplace,(not everyone is the brightest crayon in the box) and are not qualified for a 'sit down job'. I did'nt include the folks who are just plain lazy and think the world owes them, as they deserve nothing...other than a meal at the soup kitchen, and a visit to the free VOLENTEER clinic every now and then...if that!

What as a nation can we do to take care of those who cannot, help those who have the desire but not the skills, or social acceptability to obtain a job,
and deal with the folks who just won't. Can we find a reasonable alternitvive to our system of welfare, food stamps, ssi, etc., and still be humane enough to consider human rights. As the leader of the free world, we can't have people by the thousands starving in the streets. I get just as mad as anyone else at the freeloaders, but can we not find a viable solution to encourage producitivity, discourage the leeches, and protect the taxpaying worker, the people who want to contribute, but are held back by whatever?? It is a problem that I as well as many others would love to see solved, while we still have a few hard earned dollars!!

Preppers/survialists are by nature people who search out and impliment solutions...I would be interested in hearing the thoughts of others. I believe that there is a solution to every problem ( High Explosives inc.) There is a solution to this one which does not entail the constant support by the workers of this nation, or letting people die from starvation or exposure...even if I feel that that's what some may deserve.

I ask you men and women, because I respect the opinions you share (the vast majority of them anyway), and because as I stated above, your natural problem solving ability.

Okay have at it...who knows if we approch the problem seriously, and with vision...we might change national policy...ya never know!:thumb::thumb:
What I am struggling with is just how many make up your three examples (1 and 3 seem to be the same to me). I do not think it is very many. However those that can work but don’t probably make up a lot more.


What I have thought is that if you are receiving assistance and healthy enough to work, but can't find work or if you have kids and the cost of daycare is prohibitive, then you should be doing one of the following: Volunteering in your child's school; Getting job training of some sort; volunteering in the community.

Through each of these approaches you are moving in a direction that should lead to employment.


I think there are pretty good programs for the mentally handicapped, including ones that were mentioned.

Another problem is the way government assistance is handed out. If I want to work even a minimum wage job I give up my assistance. What could be done is the establishment of a minimum income for an individual. If you are out of work you receive the minimum and do one of the 3 things above. If you get offered part time work you get the difference between what you make part time and the assistance limit. This way you can contribute and there is an incentive to continue working.

I realize these are not perfect but the thought is: 1) If you are receiving assistance you are required to still contribute in some way; 2) That you have an incentive to work and you don't lose income when you do find work.

In general, I think discrimination against those that have committed a crime and paid their debt is wrong. Violent criminals would be the exception, and I really don't have an answer.
 
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