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understand you need radio overlap on the furthest range limit to get 5km so radio a and radio b have intersect each within 2.5 km Mobile to Mobile, HT's about 1km is the limit on the ducks supplied with the radios, might push another another 250-500 meters with other tuned antennas..

without access to a repeater

If you are getting more the 5km in distance between radio a and radio b then radio c will be a repeater network you are accessing from 440-477 MHz pending on what freqs the radio is programmed to run on and compliant tuned antenna..
 

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understand you need radio overlap on the furthest range limit to get 5km so radio a and radio b have intersect each within 2.5 km Mobile to Mobile, HT's about 1km is the limit on the ducks supplied with the radios, might push another another 250-500 meters with other tuned antennas..

without access to a repeater

If you are getting more the 5km in distance between radio a and radio b then radio c will be a repeater network you are accessing from 440-477 MHz pending on what freqs the radio is programmed to run on and compliant tuned antenna..
You can NOT access a repeater network unless you program the radio with the proper codes, tones and choose the correct "in and out" frequencies. Repeaters use two different frequencies to receive and transmit so all radios that make use of the repeater have to be programmed to match that. You call the repeater on Channel A and then it "repeats" your transmission on Channel B. The person that you are communicating with thru the repeater, also has to have their radio set the same way. Your radio has to transmit on Channel A and receive on Channel B. Unless you program the radio to "talk on this channel and listen on that channel", it will not work.

Furthermore, even if you knew the proper frequencies for the local repeater, you'd still have to have the codes and tones to make it work. Around here, the people who operate the repeaters won't even give you the codes and tones unless you supply them with your license/call sign so they know you're legal.

If you're only getting 5KM from a high powered hand held, then either the terrain is against you or you're doing it wrong! I regularly get over five miles (8KM) with mine. There is no such thing as the "overlap" that you're talking about. If radio A only has a 2.5KM range and radio B also has a 2.5KM range and they're 5KM apart, they will NOT be able to communicate.
 

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I to have found no real gain with a genuine nagoya antenna on my uv5r.

Also if your talking for 20minutes what are you talking about? That's alot of lip flapping. Talking I consider having the button pushed.
 

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your radial distance is 2.5 km, you must over lap the last 250-500 meters..

even with the nagoya's in use on handheld have 1-1.5 km with dense vegetation being in front of you when speaking from mobile radio to hand held over uhf, in certain situations vhf may get a longer transmission distance than uhf...

whether you run wide band or narrow band will dictate what distance you...

even with a mobile radio you would have to be within 3-3.5 km of a repeater to hit 16km+ transmission distance.. in a repeater loop you can hit 160-250+km on uhf

i didn;t talk about code and tone plugs because they have no baring on the distance you receive at..

the distance the repeater gets depends on it operational output and how high it is off the ground..
 

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even with a mobile radio you would have to be within 3-3.5 km of a repeater to hit 16km+ transmission distance.. in a repeater loop you can hit 160-250+km on uhf
You must be using Chinamart blister pack radios because my 3 to 8 watt hand helds will transmit a lot further than that.

i didn;t talk about code and tone plugs because they have no baring on the distance you receive at..
Without the proper codes and tones, you can not get access to any repeater anywhere in America! I'm not a radio expert but around here, the owners/operators of the repeaters won't even give you the codes/tones unless they verify your call sign. You must program in the proper tones, codes, Duplex/Simplex choice and transmit/receive frequencies in order to utilize a repeater. Even if you were using the proper "call in" frequency of the local repeater, it wouldn't work because without the proper codes, the repeater will not trigger on your transmission.

Repeaters use two different frequencies for transmit/receive. Even if by chance your radio was set to the proper repeater codes/tones you would have to set the Duplex/Simplex choice and then program in the two separate transmit/receive frequencies! You could not be "accidentally" hitting the repeater! If you still think you are, transmit without using your call sign. It won't take long for the owners of the repeater system to let you know about it!
 

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I've always wondered if, for emergencies you could carry a tall light antenna in your vehicle with a balloon & a bottle of helium to run up real high so you could get a signal out even if you were in the woods a way. A drone might be a better option now days though.
In a pinch, you might look at handheld dual banders with built in cross band repeat (Wouxon UV-9G). Strip down all the extra weight of the case and antenna. Dangle a thin wire antenna and you can run such a radio up on a balloon or kite a couple hundred feet and operate it as a cross-band repeater from the ground. Your ground radio can then be run with a stubby 2" antenna making it less cumbersome.
 

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MOST ANTS WE WOULD USE typically function better on a mobile ant rather than the stock ant.

5-8 watts typically kills the supplied battery within 20 min


at ten mile you are bouncing a signal from from a repeater station

line of sight can't beat physics 16km is stretching the limit without using a repeater

5watts in a mobile gets you a limit of overlap is 2.5km
Just for fun, here is how to calculate the "radio horizon"

(The Myth of VHF Line-Of-Sight - The KØNR Radio Site) this link has some interesting comments and generally avoids that all messy math used when sorting out the LOS for a radio path.
The simplest calculation is

or with graphics



distance to horizon for the 'smooth earth model' assuming a 5 ft eye height, puts the horizon at just over 2,7 miles away. The radio horizon is a bit more. And also frequency dependent.

Bottom line - antenna height above terrain + antenna gain are the big drivers on communication distance.

I routinely hit a repeater (on a mountain) 60 miles away with five watts and my rooftop yagi antenna.

H/T radios with their usual rubber covered dummy loads can still provide communications over a limited distance.

Good luck.
 

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I don't know if I would want an HT with a power greater than a few watts up near my eyes and skull.

What we used to do years ago when hunting in the U.P. when we had the radios on 464.5000, and 464.5500; we had aluminum poles on the back pack with the antenna on top. It got in the way, and ended up only getting us about a half mile more. We switched to lower frequencies for range.
Where radiation is a concern with higher power, you can always use a hand mic. Most are mic/speaker combos. Plenty of options out there depending on your HT.
 

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If you are serious about emergency communications you need to gain both technical knowledge and practical experience and then get over your toy ChiCom radio fantasy.
No, the cheap Chinese radios aren't quite as refined as the Yaesu's, Kenwood's, etc. However, they are affordable and have enabled a lot of people to get started in amateur radio without a large financial investment. Not everybody can afford a $200+ radio or afford to lose one. Early on, the Baofeng's were kind of sketchy in quality but these days they are pretty solid for a sub $60 radio. But I agree with you, the more you know, the better your experience will be with ham radio. Thanks for posting that pdf.
 

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Repeaters use two different frequencies to receive and transmit so all radios that make use of the repeater have to be programmed to match that. You call the repeater on Channel A and then it "repeats" your transmission on Channel B. The person that you are communicating with thru the repeater, also has to have their radio set the same way. Your radio has to transmit on Channel A and receive on Channel B. Unless you program the radio to "talk on this channel and listen on that channel", it will not work.
That's pretty much how it works. Repeaters in my area use a mixture of PL tones (sub audible tones) DCS codes (digital code squelch) or none at all (open repeater) I don't know where Redlineshooter is getting his info, but much of it makes no sense. And I don't feel like disassembling it all here.

And it IS the antenna. Me and my friends did some antenna comparisons to see which worked the best. We all had the same make and model of radio. The best HT antenna we found for VHF was a 5/8 wave one which provided 6 - 9 dB gain. https://www.smileyantenna.com/product-p/14610.htm

There's also the Diamond RH205 telescoping antenna which is 5/8 wave but it has a BNC connector and not an SMA connector. It and the Smiley are 47.5" long when extended. Get a SMA to BNC adapter.
I can hit a popular repeater which is almost 50 miles away with my Yaesu FT-60R on 5 watts and that antenna.

One thing that makes mainstream ham radios better than the chinesium ones is ease of use. They are designed for amateur radio use and that's it. It's simple to add a frequency into memory WITHOUT packing a computer along with you. You don't have to worry about programming separate input and output repeater frequencies because they have automatic repeater shift. It's simple to enter PL tones for repeater use. They have actual knobs to adjust squelch, volume and frequencies.

We all call rubber ducks "rubber attenuators" because that's what they are.
 

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take repeater out of the equation you be good for 1.5 miles if that..

you may extend distance with 100foot of co-ax at 5 watts though typically 10-5 foot your radius between ht and mobile is about 1/2 mile- 1 mile at best

if you are going from mountain top to mountain top without a repeater in play between 430-477MHz you are running ionosphere bounce and skip

though at 5-10 foot off the deck from mobile to ht your mileage is going to be shorter than what you as on mobile your max diameter of 2.5 km from mobile to mobile radio, factor in a mobile to ht transmission that is going to be 1km-1.5 radial distance from the mobile radio.

factor in a repeater 50-100 m2 km is possible pending LOS distace is and how high the antenna itself is...
 

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take repeater out of the equation you be good for 1.5 miles if that..

you may extend distance with 100foot of co-ax at 5 watts though typically 10-5 foot your radius between ht and mobile is about 1/2 mile- 1 mile at best
Range can be extremely variable, depending on local conditions such as terrain, vegetation, frequency, etc. So under some conditions ranges can be very short indeed. But the ranges you are quoting, 1.5 miles or less without a repeater, and HT and mobile ranges of 0.5 to 1 mile "at best" are simply not normal. I regularly get 3 to 6 miles HT to HT on simplex over flat ground. From hills and mountains I regularly get 20+ miles HT to HT. Throw a mobile in the equation, and ranges get extended because of their (typically) better antennas and higher power. Over flat ground, mobile to mobile, ranges well in excess of 10 miles are common and 20 miles + is not really unusual.

if you are going from mountain top to mountain top without a repeater in play between 430-477MHz you are running ionosphere bounce and skip
Your above statement is simply incorrect. These kinds of things (UHF mountain topping) are most often simple line of sight, if you can see the other mountain top from your location (you have line of sight) you can probably talk to it even using a 5 Watt HT and a stock antenna. Ionospheric propagation, skywave, or skip, almost never happens at the UHF frequencies you quote. Ducting is certainly more common, but even so, this does not play in most mountain top to mountain top transmissions. Even E-skip, while pretty often observed at VHF, is uncommon on UHF frequencies.

I suggest you do a little review of radio wave propagation. From there research transmission ERP, free space loss, and receiver MDS. From that you will find that the average HT can transmit a good bit further than you seem to believe.

Or just consider amateur radio satellites. In ham radio people often transmit, using HTs, well over 100 miles (often many times that range) from the ground to the satellite. Ask yourself, if the HT can transmit that far to the satellite, what is stopping it from transmitting that far to any other receiver? And the answer, most typically, is roughly line of sight.

T!
 

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take repeater out of the equation you be good for 1.5 miles if that..

you may extend distance with 100foot of co-ax at 5 watts though typically 10-5 foot your radius between ht and mobile is about 1/2 mile- 1 mile at best

if you are going from mountain top to mountain top without a repeater in play between 430-477MHz you are running ionosphere bounce and skip

though at 5-10 foot off the deck from mobile to ht your mileage is going to be shorter than what you as on mobile your max diameter of 2.5 km from mobile to mobile radio, factor in a mobile to ht transmission that is going to be 1km-1.5 radial distance from the mobile radio.

factor in a repeater 50-100 m2 km is possible pending LOS distace is and how high the antenna itself is...
Not even close. Sorry but your information is so far out of range that it's not even rational! Several people here have tried to explain it to you in a soft manner but you're just locked on to the "1 1/2 mile range max" thing. I think maybe you've gotten the ChinaMart Blister pack radios confused with a high powered hand held radio! Even so, I've gotten more than 1 1/2 miles range even with one of those cheap low powered things! (Yeah, we were standing on hilltops) With my GT-3TP hand held, I was able to clearly communicate over 8 miles to my home from the trail. If the facts don't fit the theory, change the theory! Leave the facts alone!!!
 

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I was living in a mountain range stating limitations of radial distance of the antennas...

Not a directional antenna

CONCEPT: anything above above 1.5 mile you are likely either reflecting off a higher antenna or pinging a repeater and reflecting off of it ...

limitation between mobile and ht is about 0.932057 mile

Now if pinging a local repeater 8 miles is doable if nor 100+ miles

People do not understand limitation without repeater in use vs with repeater in use and the distance that can be obtained 10-11 foot - 6'1" off the ground vs distance from antenna that is 100+ foot off the ground communicating with devices 6 foot or lower off the ground..

there is alot of distance in coverage when pinging a repeater outputting 50-80 watts 100-500 feet off the ground with something pushing 5watts or less 6-10 feet off the ground...

especially the radial distance is about 2.5km at 5 watts or less.. from a mobile radio outputting 5 watts

even if you had a HT capable of that distance which I doubt max range I have seen from a ht is about 1-1.5km at max with no repeaters in use..
 

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I was living in a mountain range stating limitations of radial distance of the antennas...

Not a directional antenna

CONCEPT: anything above above 1.5 mile you are likely either reflecting off a higher antenna or pinging a repeater and reflecting off of it ...

limitation between mobile and ht is about 0.932057 mile

Now if pinging a local repeater 8 miles is doable if nor 100+ miles

People do not understand limitation without repeater in use vs with repeater in use and the distance that can be obtained 10-11 foot - 6'1" off the ground vs distance from antenna that is 100+ foot off the ground communicating with devices 6 foot or lower off the ground..

there is alot of distance in coverage when pinging a repeater outputting 50-80 watts 100-500 feet off the ground with something pushing 5watts or less 6-10 feet off the ground...

especially the radial distance is about 2.5km at 5 watts or less.. from a mobile radio outputting 5 watts

even if you had a HT capable of that distance which I doubt max range I have seen from a ht is about 1-1.5km at max with no repeaters in use..
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink! You go right ahead and believe that you're bouncing off a repeater....but you're not! You go right ahead and believe that you're only getting a mile from a high powered hand held radio.....but you're getting a lot more! (Unless you're in a big crowded city) You go right ahead and believe that your "limitation between mobile and ht is about 0.932057 mile" but it's really a whole lot more. Such precision! You brought that decimal place out six places! Wow! Why, that's exactly 4921.2609 feet but I only carried it out four decimal places. I guess I'm not as precise as you are. But then, I don't have to be because my hand held radios are more better and special than yours! Of course, they must be because they'll reach eight miles or so. That's 42240 feet if you want to be precise about it!
 

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na i just converted KM to miles at line of sight that is all and it is to my understanding at 40-100 foot mast outputting 50-80 watts are typically repeater setups on uhf and vhf service radios on the horizon line of communications

distance will vary pending on the height of antenna the base station and/or repeater is sitting on..
 

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CONCEPT: anything above above 1.5 mile you are likely either reflecting off a higher antenna or pinging a repeater and reflecting off of it ...
This ^ right here tells me you have no idea what you are talking about and one can dismiss all the rest of your techno-babble.
 

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FYI: Just testing both my hand handhelds, at 3 different points, with stock and 'signal stick' antennas, to the same repeater (NOTE, repeater was NOT digital at the time I did this, they have since upgraded to digital, I will check again to see if that made a difference):

Flat stock land Some hills major hills at 18 miles
UV-5R+ Stock antenna 5 miles no signal no signal
Signal Stick 7.2 miles no signal

FT70D stock antenna 7.2 miles no signal
Signal stick. 7.2 miles rec. well, not able to transmit.
 

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You can NOT access a repeater network unless you program the radio with the proper codes, tones and choose the correct "in and out" frequencies. Repeaters use two different frequencies to receive and transmit so all radios that make use of the repeater have to be programmed to match that. You call the repeater on Channel A and then it "repeats" your transmission on Channel B. The person that you are communicating with thru the repeater, also has to have their radio set the same way. Your radio has to transmit on Channel A and receive on Channel B. Unless you program the radio to "talk on this channel and listen on that channel", it will not work.

Furthermore, even if you knew the proper frequencies for the local repeater, you'd still have to have the codes and tones to make it work. Around here, the people who operate the repeaters won't even give you the codes and tones unless you supply them with your license/call sign so they know you're legal.
Many if not most radios have a CTCSS/DCS scan function to find the PL tone or DCS code being used. For ham and GMRS repeaters, usually, if the repeater uses a tone/code on the output frequency it'll be the same as the tone/code that is needed to activate it on the input frequency. So first scan for the frequency (or channel) to find the repeater output, then switch to CTCSS/DCS scanning to find the tone (if they're using one). On our HTs at least it doesn't just display the CTSSS/DCS in use, but changes the setting to use it on the current frequency, so it's easy to add it to memory at that point with the repeater settings all programmed. Ham and GMRS repeaters, usually, aren't intended to be hard to find or use and modern radios make it easy with standard repeater offsets and tone/code scanning.

In somewhat reverse thinking, to keep your repeater more secure from other users, I chose radios that support using non-standard CTCSS/DCS tones and codes. I'll sometimes setup a simplex repeater using a non-standard input CTCSS tone (like 78.4 Hz, halfway between the standard 77.0 and 79.7 Hz tones) to increase our HT<>HT range when we have guests staying at the homestead. Since many radios don't support non-standard tones, and even in some that do it can only be programmed using the software and not from the front panel, it reduces the chance of anyone else being able to activate it if they do find it.
 
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