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not down to the brand but type, assume it wasn't slugs

trap load? buckshot? hunting loads?
 

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not down to the brand but type, assume it wasn't slugs

trap load? buckshot? hunting loads?
Not sure as to type.

This is an example how other armed security volunteers were able to prevent a mass shooting because they were armed.

11B
 

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`

I read it was 00 Buck, anything beyond that like if it was 2 3/4", 3", brand & load specs I haven't read, but really beyond knowing it was a 12ga shooting 00 buck isn't really that important IMO. The GGWAG was shooting 357sig, not sure what ammo. I've never really tried to find out, but that info might be easier to find, he's done several interviews as have others who know him.

.
 

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...combined hunting / home defense handload...

12 ga. "Duck & Pheasant" load with [place preferred birdshot size here] in a Federal Flite-Control wad through an I.C. choke.
Hits like a slug with a ton of force.
 

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...but the Flite-Control wad holds them together so the pattern is very narrow @ 10 yards, like 6 inches wide.
At that point, all those tiny pellets are going to come across like one giant slug.
 

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Birdshot gets anenic penetration
There is zero comparison to the terminal performance of a slug
Especially a Brenneke slug

I like the Flite-Control wads best by far so you are right there
So imagine #1 buckshot in a Flite-Control wad
Now your talking

I keep posting this
But we still get post with bad/dangerous information

See for yourself how you are wrong. Please don't post false information, you do us all a disservice

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/
 

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We can debate the effectiveness of slug vs buck vs bird all day long and we'll both make good points and, in reality, neither of us will be wrong....however....a very wise man once said, just because all you have is (place gun/load in question, here) doesn't mean you have to curl up into the fedal position and wait for your inevitable end....use whatever you have on hand! It's better than nothing at all.
So whether I'm armed with some para military "ultimate weapon" shooting para military "ultimate loads", or I've got the .410 break action single that was handed down to my father by his father and has now been handed down to me, shooting upland bird hunting loads, you can use either to defend yourself and you won't be wrong.
It's like the thread floating around here where the guy was renting a room and wasn't allowed to have a gun by the home owner, so he contemplated protecting himself with a slingshot.
He's not wrong to use that slingshot.

....because anything, is better than nothing at all.
 

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We can debate the effectiveness of slug vs buck vs bird all day long and we'll both make good points and, in reality, neither of us will be wrong....however....a very wise man once said, just because all you have is (place gun/load in question, here) doesn't mean you have to curl up into the fedal position and wait for your inevitable end....use whatever you have on hand! It's better than nothing at all.
So whether I'm armed with some para military "ultimate weapon" shooting para military "ultimate loads", or I've got the .410 break action single that was handed down to my father by his father and has now been handed down to me, shooting upland bird hunting loads, you can use either to defend yourself and you won't be wrong.
It's like the thread floating around here where the guy was renting a room and wasn't allowed to have a gun by the home owner, so he contemplated protecting himself with a slingshot.
He's not wrong to use that slingshot.

....because anything, is better than nothing at all.
Yes it is...BUT that's not what we were discussing. You were touting a specific load for defense and I simply pointed out it wasn't as badass as you thought it was.

Using what's at hand in an emergency is fine but that does NOT preclude a person from buying what will work better BEFORE said emergency arrives.
 

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...and I stand behind my original statement.
It's also ok if you disagree.
...however, this just brought something to mind...What would hit "harder"; 731 #9's or 62 BB's or nine OO Buck's?
I've always felt BB's were a good compromise between pellet weight and pattern density (for home protection), but smaller pellets would pack better (smaller voids between pellets), but then you have buckshot, which is much larger and heavier, per pellet.
9 bucks total out to approx. 1.1 oz.
62 BB's and 731 #9's both total out to approx. 1.25 oz.
...so the Buckshot load is a lighter shot charge...
Now, of course, you've already stated you'd go with the buckshot load, Steve, and that's fine, but I wonder....
If you shoot all of these using the Federal Flite-Control wad from otherwise identical loads, how would each load react against a human facsimile target at 10 yards?

...that would be an interesting test to see.
 

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...and I stand behind my original statement.
It's also ok if you disagree.
...however, this just brought something to mind...What would hit "harder"; 731 #9's or 62 BB's or nine OO Buck's?
I've always felt BB's were a good compromise between pellet weight and pattern density (for home protection), but smaller pellets would pack better (smaller voids between pellets), but then you have buckshot, which is much larger and heavier, per pellet.
9 bucks total out to approx. 1.1 oz.
62 BB's and 731 #9's both total out to approx. 1.25 oz.
...so the Buckshot load is a lighter shot charge...
Now, of course, you've already stated you'd go with the buckshot load, Steve, and that's fine, but I wonder....
If you shoot all of these using the Federal Flite-Control wad from otherwise identical loads, how would each load react against a human facsimile target at 10 yards?

...that would be an interesting test to see.
You can think that all you want but the experts and the math don't agree. After all it's not as if you are suddenly discovering something that has eluded people for the last 200 years. Before flight control various methods were tried to achieve the same thing.

BBs simply don't have enough mass to penetrate deep enough into a body to reach vital organs.

Everything proves that #4 buckshot is the smallest pellet size you want and that #1 Buck is the optimum. #1 buck was overshadowed by the mass production of 00buck and its resultant cheaper price.
 

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You can think that all you want but the experts and the math don't agree. After all it's not as if you are suddenly discovering something that has eluded people for the last 200 years. Before flight control various methods were tried to achieve the same thing.

BBs simply don't have enough mass to penetrate deep enough into a body to reach vital organs.

Everything proves that #4 buckshot is the smallest pellet size you want and that #1 Buck is the optimum. #1 buck was overshadowed by the mass production of 00buck and its resultant cheaper price.
...but when the pattern is so tight that it literally hits as one conjoined unit, the body sees it like one huge slug.
You're arguments all assume a normal wad, which would separate from the shot and allow the pellets to start spreading out, even at 10 yards, but that's not the case here.
At 30 feet, the pellets are just leaving the Flite-Control wad, so they have barely started to spread yet.
I think this is a point you are missing.
 

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...but when the pattern is so tight that it literally hits as one conjoined unit, the body sees it like one huge slug.
You're arguments all assume a normal wad, which would separate from the shot and allow the pellets to start spreading out, even at 10 yards, but that's not the case here.
At 30 feet, the pellets are just leaving the Flite-Control wad, so they have barely started to spread yet.
I think this is a point you are missing.
See the truth in post #10

#BB does a decent job, but falls short

No have many individual balls there are, size matters
That tiny balls are close together means nothing
They or not a "cojoined unit"
They are individual shot, not one unit
There are serious flaws in your thinking
 

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When my folks were RVing fulltime, I talked them into buying 2 twenty guage pumps with security barrels. 12g was too brutal. Then they paid to have a buddy load up 2 boxes of buck and ball, for cash. That was double aught in #4 shot. He earned some change at the expense of his Saturday morning, I earned some peace of mind that they wouldnt end up as meat goo executed in some desolute spot for thier gear. They got a good afternoon buring through a couple boxes of dove loads with thier kids. SOF magazine said that the SAS called them malaya loads but we call them ****bag pills. Pretty awesome anti-personnel ammo.
 

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...but when the pattern is so tight that it literally hits as one conjoined unit, the body sees it like one huge slug.
You're arguments all assume a normal wad, which would separate from the shot and allow the pellets to start spreading out, even at 10 yards, but that's not the case here.
At 30 feet, the pellets are just leaving the Flite-Control wad, so they have barely started to spread yet.
I think this is a point you are missing.
I am not missing anything. The pellets are NOT a single entity and no matter what it looks like when you shoot paper they will NOT react like a solid slug when they hit a human body.

Like I already said, you are not miraculously discovering something new that everyone else somehow missed.

Your theory is simply WRONG and should NOT be applied to a self defense situation.
 
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