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Gumpherhooberpelt
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Discussion Starter #1
((()))
Assuming that one knew that in the year 2020 A.D. would begin a persistent pandemic, multiple hurricanes, severe floods, droughts, mudslides, wild fires, earthquakes, weather extremes, urban and suburban riots, rampant rural criminal elements, economic stagnation, impotent and incompetent government, what would you suggest be done in 2015 A.D. ?

I believe that a fortified, disaster resistant village surrounded by farmland would be one remedy to these and other natural and man-made disasters.

Though walled fortifications cannot withstand a modern military aggressor, they are sufficient to deter opportunistic two legged predators, as well as provide security from natural disasters. It’s an added plus when seeking to segregate from a pandemic.

After much consideration, I believe a dual ring walled village is optimal. To visualize, take a line of buildings, not unlike what one would find in an 1890 urban enclave, where the ground level is reserved for enterprise, and the upper levels are small offices and apartments. Wrap into a ring. Do it again. Enhance the exterior wall of the outer ring building. Now you have a central park, two rings, a circular main street, all surrounded by a robust barrier wall, with a water tight, secure double gate.


The characteristics that distinguish the Ring Village from other forms of high population density mixed use development / housing are:
1. Continuous rings (doughnut in a doughnut)
2. Stacked continuous balconies (movement around, as well as up /down)
3. Central park (for fun, recreation, nature preserve, corral or whatever)
4. Ground level reserved for enterprise, socializing, sidewalk cafes, public access
5. Upper levels reserved for homes and small offices
6. Single [watertight] gateway on each ring to control access (security option)
7. Close proximity to resources, parkland, social contact, and vocation
8. Ring street between the dual ring buildings (can’t get lost)
9. Rooftop gardens and balcony planters, to add more greenery, and
10. Engineered to eliminate the petty nuisances normally attributed to high density construction.​
How tall? Four to five stories. Beyond five stories may be too high to deal with in the event of a power outage and loss of elevators. Below four stories may not be high enough to deal with flash floods, mudslides, storm surge, and nomadic marauders.

Height Comparisons
Five story Ring Wall - 50 ft.
Tallest Fujian Tulou - 49 ft.
Four story Ring Wall - 40 ft.
Walls of Constantinople - 39 ft.
Great Wall of China - 16 to 26 ft.

The highest documented storm surge in the U.S. occurred in 2005 during Hurricane Katrina, when Pass Christian, MS, recorded a 27.8 foot (8.47 m) storm surge above mean sea level.

How many? Communities have inherent limits on size. Unlike networks, if communities don’t stop growing, they’ll die. According to Dunbar’s Number, most humans can’t maintain more than around 150 meaningful relationships. Anthropologists have found that hunter-gatherer societies hover around 150 members before they split. In Western military history, the size of a military company — the smallest autonomous and fully functioning unit — has been around 150 members. In Israel, kibbutzes vary in size from less than a hundred to over a thousand, but most Kibbutzes have between 400 and 600 members, with an average of 441 members.

If a community gets too big, people get overlooked. And because members no longer face the social scrutiny of their peers, they can opt out of contributing without shame or consequence. Once that disengagement happens, community life slowly begins to crumble.

I believe that a higher number is more advantageous over a smaller number of “Ringers.” With that in mind, designing a dual ring village for 400 to 600 charter members is suggested.

Consider the following natural disasters that might have been abated or dismissed if the locals were dwelling within five story monolithic dual ring village, fire resistant, constructed with massive barrier walls, and watertight gateways.
__ Hurricanes, with storm surge, flying debris;
__ Tornadoes, high wind and flying debris;
__ Flooding, ice dams, rainfall, tsunamis;
__ Mudslides;
__ Blizzards, snowstorms, with high drifts;
__ Ash fall (from volcanic eruptions)
__ Forest fires;
__ Earthquake, meteor shockwave;
__ Vermin, insects, mold, mildew, pests, pestilence;
__ Weather extremes (hot; bitter cold).

The solitary gated and fortified DRV may not stop a modern military force, but one does not leave one's door unlocked and windows open because a determined burglar won't be stopped by such feeble attempts at home security.

The intrinsic security aspects of a DRV with single gateways into each ring do offer a measure of protection against opportunistic predators, as well as providing enhanced security for children playing in the central park. (The gateway to the inner park could be 180 degrees from the main ring gateway, impeding any attempt at a snatch and run.)

Furthermore, the DRV can be part of a larger community composed of multiple DRVs clustered together. In that situation, a post-SHTF gang of MZBs would not be able to lay siege or attack all the DRVs without suffering significant losses. And the loss of one DRV would not spell doom for the others.

The same point can be said for a flood. A single breach of a levee might doom a traditional community. But a cluster of DRVs would not be at risk, if engulfed in flood waters. (In fact, with a little foresight, a drop down dock may be available to permit boats to tie up.)

The concept of layered defense is not new, and there's plenty of archaeological evidence that walled compounds within walled cities was commonplace, to reduce the risk from intruders and predators.

In summation, the DRV might not be a Cheyenne mountain of defense, but it can be a wise precaution against natural disasters as well as man made disasters.


THE HURDLE

How do you find 400 - 600 charter members who can agree or compromise to the degree necessary to achieve the goal?

What shared ideology or philosophy would be sufficient to smooth over the individual differences?

In the past, we know that pioneers struck out and built villages in the virgin wilderness, so it's not impossible. Many even built homesteads like small forts to enhance security from hostiles.

If 600 people each chipped in $5000, the cooperative would have a budget of $3,000,000 to buy land* and materials with which to build their vision. Hopefully, when completed, the Ringers would have no mortgages, minimal expenses, and a self reliant community, able to generate prosperity, for themselves as well as the surrounding community.

(* a typical DRV would fit within a 9 to 13 acre square parcel, which could be part of a larger parcel of farmland.)
 

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Wile E Coyote, Genius.
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If you want to see the future, take a trip to El Salvadore, Brazil and walk around their residential areas.

The apartments are gated, with a couple armed guards at the entrance sitting in a jeep with machine guns.

The concrete walls are 20 ft high, with high voltage power lines and broken glass embedded in the top.
 

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Gumpherhooberpelt
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Discussion Starter #3
Engineering benefits

The curved walls are self supporting, stronger than equivalent flat walls, and thus outperform rectilinear structures of the equivalent volume and surface area. The dividing walls further strengthen the inner and outer curved walls. The enclosed spaces are more energy efficient, having only two or three exposed surfaces, out of six faces. Massive barrier walls can resist side forces that would otherwise crush contemporary construction. In addition, such thick walls would provide protection from gamma radiation.

Layout

The dual ring creates a circular main street, between the two rings, and the central area can be whatever the Ringers want - a park, a pasture, a nature preserve, country club, a saucer landing zone and so on. This juxtaposition of an urban environment of mixed use enterprise and dwellings, next to a substantial park is ideal. No matter where one lives, one is but a short distance from one’s vocation, shopping, entertainment, recreation and nature. In addition, the DRV can utilize its rooftop as a garden, safe from pesky intruders lurking at ground level.

The spacing between rings can be narrow - only one lane wide or expansive enough for a parade to march through or a procession to pass. The choice is up to the Ringers, themselves, to determine what kind of main street environment that they want. Ditto, for the overall size.
As to livability, it compares well with the many suggestions stated in "A Pattern Language".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Pattern_Language

What characteristics would attract someone to live in a high density population environment, like a dual ring village, surrounded by countryside?
[] Family oriented, child safe, pleasant neighborhood
[] Luxury hotel - room service - excellent accommodations - luxuries
[] Country club - sports - relaxation - socializing - swimming pool (clothing optional) - bar - restaurant
[] Retirement - quiet - restful - low stress - proximity to health care
[] Shopping Mall - varied retail outlets - cooperatives - distribution centers
[] Amusement or Theme Park - games, rides, zoo, playground, costumes, role playing,
[] Entertainment - music, theater, movies, dance, AV production sets
[] Educational - museums, libraries, observatory, laboratories, lecture halls
[] Esthetics - art, sculpture, illumination, fashion
[] Personal grooming - hair care - nails - skin care - tailor shop - laundry -
[] Health care - dental - clinic - hospice (integrated with one’s apartment)
[] Professional / skilled labor - engineering, construction, repair
[] SCA - fairgrounds - pavilions - gazebo - Shakespearean Globe theater
[] Underground / out of sight infrastructure (freight, utilities, waste, engineering) ex: back alley, etc.
[] Your ideas here _______


{Based on rule of thumb that one acre can support 8 to 10 people, a 500 capacity dual ring village would need 100 acres or more of agricultural land, outside of the DRV, to be self sufficient in food.}
 

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Gumpherhooberpelt
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Discussion Starter #4
If you want to see the future, take a trip to El Salvadore, Brazil and walk around their residential areas.

The apartments are gated, with a couple armed guards at the entrance sitting in a jeep with machine guns.

The concrete walls are 20 ft high, with high voltage power lines and broken glass embedded in the top.
DRV with a security gate can probably include a machine gun emplacement inside. (grin)

DRV wall height of 50 ft would probably not need more augmentation, especially if the locals spend a lot of time "up on the roof." (Gardening, sky watching, sun bathing, etc)

I think the general atmosphere inside the DRV will be more like "leave your door unlocked" casualness... at least I hope so.
 

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Gumpherhooberpelt
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Discussion Starter #5
Americans need to find a way to team up, find convivial and compatible compatriots to form a cooperative community, and build a fortified dual ring village.

Term Warfare

• COMPATIBLE - Capable of existing or performing in harmonious, agreeable, or congenial combination with another or others.
• COMPATRIOT- 1. A person from one's own country. 2. A colleague.
• HARMONIOUS - Having agreement or consensus.
• CONGENIAL - Having the same tastes, habits, or temperament; sympathetic.
• CONVIVIAL - 1. Enjoying good company; sociable; 2. Characterized by merry celebrating; festive.
• COOPERATIVE - Able to work or act together toward a common end or purpose.
• CONSENSUS - General agreement or concord; harmony.

In other words, Americans need to become members of merry, festive, cooperative associations of like minded people, sharing nationality, language, customs, and behavior, who work together toward a common purpose - such as building a prosperous community and constructing an autonomous, self sufficient, disaster resistant fortified village, in order to better secure endowed rights of life, liberty and absolute ownership from attack by foreign or domestic enemies.

Is this a dream worth striving to achieve?
 

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Wile E Coyote, Genius.
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LOL, it has been tried. It was called segregation.

Government made it illegal to make sure you got culturally enriched and stuff.

I never even saw a black person till I was 16. Our town had zero crime.

All the kids played all over town unsupervised. Nobody got raped or kidnapped or anything.
The town had nice parks scattered around. There was always something going on to enjoy.
Frisbees getting thrown around, pickup games of football or baseball. girls riding their bikes around.
Tennis courts always had a few games going on. No drugs, no homeless, no drive by killings.

We left the keys in the car ignition. The front door only got locked at night. But a stiff wind would open it.
(no deadbolt, and it had that little button you pushed on the knob.

Right after I graduated high school, they integrated the school by bussing.

Dad said half the girls got pregnant that year. (There were zero teen pregnancies before).
 

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Gumpherhooberpelt
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Discussion Starter #7
LOL, it has been tried. It was called segregation.

Government made it illegal to make sure you got culturally enriched and stuff.
In reading the law, there is no bar for sovereign people to shun those whom they do not wish to associate with.
As to the subject citizens, they're s.o.l.
 

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Is this a dream worth striving to achieve?
Many have tried. None have succeeded. Every few years someone with money makes an attempt at some kind of libertarian walled paradise. It never comes to anything. Corruption, infighting, fraud etc always bring it down. I've been following these things since I was a kid in Eastern Oregon....They got pretty far...but still came apart.

Every time its different. Every time it's the same. I can't even say how many times over the last forty years I've seen or heard about someone who is going to build their own colony in the US. They always sound good on paper. They usually never get beyond a few dozen people before someone sleeps with someone else they shouldn't have or the government hauls the leader away for not paying taxes, etc.

All that being said, it's a great theory, its a great, time proven design your talking about. But in the modern world all forces work to tear anything like that apart.

They will come again...but only after the collapse



 

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Gumpherhooberpelt
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Discussion Starter #12
Many have tried. None have succeeded. [You're right]

Every few years someone with money makes an attempt at some kind of libertarian walled paradise. It never comes to anything. Corruption, infighting, fraud etc always bring it down. I've been following these things since I was a kid in Eastern Oregon....They got pretty far...but still came apart.

Every time its different. Every time it's the same.
Founders of cooperative communities often are hard working dreamers, whose achievements are destroyed by parasites and plunderers who show up.
The Shaker communities are a prime example.

All that being said, it's a great theory, its a great, time proven design your talking about. But in the modern world all forces work to tear anything like that apart.

They will come...but only after the collapse
The Chinese Hakka Tulou are also "endangered" and no new ones are being constructed. Seems like the Party frowns on plain folk having fortified clan homes to live in.
 

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You should watch this documentary:


And yes, I'm sure your project would be different...just like every other one :) But these guys made it really far in trying to build their own nation within a nation, until it collapsed. Lot of talk about it when I was little as I lived not too far from it.

Also, I think you may like the book "Dies The fire", good PA fiction, primarily about different strategies for community building TEOWAKI, it talks a lot about the forces that can be used to unite people.

The problem being right now of course...there aren't really that strong of forces to get people to work together.
 

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SoJer
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If you want to see the future, take a trip to El Salvadore, Brazil...apartments are gated, with a couple armed guards at the entrance sitting in a jeep with machine guns. ....power lines and broken glass embedded in the top.
a) Me thinks you're 'muxing signals', Compadré.. ;) You talking Salvador, in Bahia, Brazil? Orrr, El Salvador (Centro 'merica) Either way, yer not wrong.. :) ie: Entrance to Our old place (in El Sal, C.A...)

..18' Walls / Gates / Armed 'Guardias' / Broken Glass-topped (sorry, no HV, but Yes to Razor/Barbed..), etc: Check. :thumb:

b) Yeah, I can definitely see (at least, some) Communities doing 'check points', at the mouths to tract-home / condo-areas.. Apt-stacks, too of course.. And - of course - roads leading to 'quazi-developed' rural areas (not a 'tract', per-se, but One road leading to several entrances feeding off it, each with spacious land 'tween, etc..) getting 'blocked off' / monitored / 'gated', etc (I know Aerindel's 'got a Plan', fer sure.. :thumb:

..Ugh, 'DisUnited States of Sarajevos', here we come.. :rolleyes:

@ Jet - Love it, and certainly All the 'technicalities' are doable / workable, but.. This:

...How do you find 400 - 600 charter members who can agree or compromise to the degree necessary to achieve the goal?..
..As you say, is THE 'Hurdle', and I dunno how - in This day and age, where Everyone has got Some 'permutation' of what's "right" in their eyes / moral-regs book, well.. That, more than anything, seems 'why' it's not already been done.. (at least not as 'homogenous' as what you propose..) ie: Some of the 'planned communities' (especially ones that start-out 'Church-based'..) can end up.. getting a little.. wierd.. :xeye:

..but.. IF ya get somethin rollin.. (..and, already have some solid Family in ATL-area (Stone Mountain / Lilburn-ish..) We're in for $5K.. :thumb: Pretty-well set for the 'First Year of Transition' - hunting/defense/shelter/heat/transition-food/water-gleaning tools, etc and Plenty of Mech / Tools and several well-honed Skill-sets / Meds, et al to bring to the 'stone table'... ;)

.02
jd
 

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Gumpherhooberpelt
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Discussion Starter #17
And yes, I'm sure your project would be different...just like every other one. But these guys made it really far in trying to build their own nation within a nation, until it collapsed. Lot of talk about it when I was little as I lived not too far from it.
ON FREEDOM
“ Oh, yeah, that's right. That's what's it's all about, all right. But talkin' about it and bein' it, that's two different things. I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. Of course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free, 'cause then they're gonna get real busy KILLIN' AND MAIMIN' to prove to you that they are. Oh, yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom. But they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em.”
--- George Hanson (Easy Rider, 1969)
 

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Wile E Coyote, Genius.
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a) Me thinks you're 'muxing signals', Compadré.. ;) You talking Salvador, in Bahia, Brazil? Orrr, El Salvador (Centro 'merica) Either way, yer not wrong.. :) ie: Entrance to Our old place (in El Sal, C.A...)

..18' Walls / Gates / Armed 'Guardias' / Broken Glass-topped (sorry, no HV, but Yes to Razor/Barbed..), etc: Check. :thumb:

b) Yeah, I can definitely see (at least, some) Communities doing 'check points', at the mouths to tract-home / condo-areas.. Apt-stacks, too of course.. And - of course - roads leading to 'quazi-developed' rural areas (not a 'tract', per-se, but One road leading to several entrances feeding off it, each with spacious land 'tween, etc..) getting 'blocked off' / monitored / 'gated', etc (I know Aerindel's 'got a Plan', fer sure.. :thumb:

..Ugh, 'DisUnited States of Sarajevos', here we come.. :rolleyes:

@ Jet - Love it, and certainly All the 'technicalities' are doable, but.. This:



..As you say, is THE 'Hurdle', and I dunno how - in This day and age, where Everyone has got Some 'permutation' of what's "right" in their eyes / moral-regs book, well.. That, more than anything, seems 'why' it's not already been done.. (at least not as 'homogenous' as what you propose..)

..but.. IF ya get somethin rollin.. We're in for $5K.. :thumb: Pretty-well set for the 'First Year of Transition' - hunting/defense/shelter/water/heat, etc and Plenty of Tools and several Skill-sets / Meds, et al to bring to the 'stone table'... ;)

.02
jd
Yes, in Bahia Brazil. Sorry about the "El"
 

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Gumpherhooberpelt
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Discussion Starter #19
Variation.
Instead of a big park, put in a replica Globe theater, for Shakespearean entertainment.

 

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SoJer
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Yes, in Bahia Brazil. Sorry about the "El"
..No worries, I was just asking to clarify... :thumb: And, like I said - either way, you're Not wrong.. :cool: Same sort of 'that's just the way things are done', just about everywhere 'down South'..

@ Aerindel, heh, I didn't see your post before I entered mine, but.. Yeah, funny you should mention Oregon.. Did some work up in 'Sunriver', one year, and.. it was.. a bit creepy.. :xeye: But yeah, keeping things from 'going Space Shuttle Challenger' seems to be the biggest issue for such-like 'Planned Communities'.. Not the crops, not the maintenance, not 'disasters' (ie: some flood, etc) Nope - it's the People.. :rolleyes:

.03
jd
 
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