yea that would probably work but its an awful lot of fuel used to heat that much water. my money is on a combination slow sand filter with activated charcoal. 2 or 3 55gal drum sized filters of that type should keep me in clean water indefenatly and be easy to replace. plus no remineralizeing needed

 

You can build a passive still as well that will use solar energy. It is not a high output proposition, but will provide some safe water.

 

slow sand Filtration + SODIS purification for water sources not contaminated with chemicals. No fire needed.

Solar distillation can work if you have enough distillation capacity and some sunlight. Also no fire needed.

 

Only distill if you have to. Otherwise, there are a lot of other purification options. And if you have to distill, look into passive solar and such. They aren't as energy intensive.

 

I am working on a solar still that will turn a half gallon an hour into steam, to be condensed into pure water.
I have tested it and it works.
Just need to perfect the system.
Stay tuned

 

would love to hear about it.

 

I'm looking at output levels capable of providing for a group of 15-20 people. For fuel in my idea I would probably use a home made rocket stove with wood. Plenty of wood in the area to keep well supplied for a while. I can order mineralization supplies ahead of time in large enough bulk to keep the group taken care of for a while.

Would the filter you described handle biological concerns or would bleach be needed for it to be fully decontaminated?

 

Would the filter you described handle biological concerns or would bleach be needed for it to be fully decontaminated?

to the best of my understanding a slow sand filter paired with activated charcoal should handle just about anything that could possibly be in the water but as a redundant system for biological concerns just to be sure you could run the outflow of the sand filter through a solar uv-a system like the one in the picture here

http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2007/11/28/how-works_7860.jpg

http://notbetterthanscience.blogspot.com/2011/11/make-your-own-solar-water-purifier.html#more

 

There are a lot of filtration options that can handle biological concerns for a large group. The larger Berkey's and monolithics can handle it easily enough. And of course there is always calcium hypochlorite for water treatment too. All of which are quicker and less fuel intensive than distillation.

 

Ground Water -> Sand -> Calcium Hypochlorite -> Activated Carbon Filter -> Sterile Containment

Unless you are trying to grab highly toxic water from a paper mill's settling pond that method above should take care of you.

 

We use these. Very efficient, high output, High Quality water and doesn't depend on cloudy, stormy days to distill lol.

http://www.homespunenvironmental.com/product_p/sk-1003.htm

 

Not exactly all they claim it is. It's just a ceramic filter in a bucket.

It doesn't say what the micron rating is. It does say bacteria, which would be 5 micron, but at that size it would not remove viruses.

As for removing chemicals that is pure myth on a ceramic filter. Many toxins have a molecule the same size or smaller than a water molecule. It might remove toxic sediment solids but it would pass arsenic for sure, which happens to be somewhat common in both ground and well water. Unless they run it through activated carbon or use chemical remediation based on sample testing they won't remove many toxins.

The pricing is borderline too. Not outrageous, mind you, but a bucket and seals are a couple bucks in bulk quantity, plus basic ceramic filters can be had for as low as $20 depending on what you get. A person with some good DIY skills could make it for a little less if they were a good parts shopper. I know they have to make a profit, but that tends to be on their bulk buying discounts when you are talking about assembling off-the-shelf items.

They also don't mention if it is freeze resistant. Many ceramic filters can be destroyed once they freeze if they ever filtered water. A used ceramic filter will retain water for a very long time unless you can bake it or put it into extremely low moisture environments until every last drop is sublimated.

For the non-handy person looking for something to process water it is an OK deal. It still requires something downstream for chemicals so that price will not be the final price.

 

At school they did a test where they put contaminated water into clean jugs no more than 2 liters large. Then they put their filled bottles up on the roof during the day. This was an asphalt roof so I have no idea how it would work on a metal roof. They did this on a sunny day, took the bottles down at night and tested the water. All pathogens were killed.

Now this takes a long time so it's not for those dying of thirst but it is one way of killing off living pathogens. It doesn't do anything for non-living poison or heavy metals, but I thought I would put it out there.

 

Have you priced 55 gallon stainless steel drums? You are probably looking at $600-$1000 for a new one. Then you'll need to modify it. When you say you are running tubing from the drum to a water barrel, do you mean stainless steel tubing? Have you priced it? Do you know what size and length you'll need to get the results you want? How will you keep the tubing cool to promote condensation? You'll want to use a carbon post filter if your water has any chemical contaminants.

I think it's doable but I think it will be very expensive and as others have pointed out, very energy intensive. You'd probably be better off with a pressure cooker instead of the drum. You'll just need to change the water more often.

Distillation is great for sea water or highly contaminated water. If you have a mountain stream or creek as your water source, it is totally unnecessary. Even pond or lake water can be treated more economically, but you probably won't go wrong with distillation if you have any concern for chemical or heavy metal contamination.

good luck.

 

I've found used stainless drums, cleaned and sanitized for the low 200s and 300s. The pressure cooker seems like a pretty good idea though now that you mention it - I hadn't thought of that.

In my case, contamination would be a concern. Most of the water sources around me are contaminated with bacteria and a lot of waste run off ends up in the lake nearby as well as the closest ponds and rivers.That is why I'd originally looked at distillation.

Any more input is welcome, I'm going to be seeing what I can put together here and once I have something setup I'll post the specs, pics and the outcome.

 

I've found used stainless drums, cleaned and sanitized for the low 200s and 300s. The pressure cooker seems like a pretty good idea though now that you mention it - I hadn't thought of that.

In my case, contamination would be a concern. Most of the water sources around me are contaminated with bacteria and a lot of waste run off ends up in the lake nearby as well as the closest ponds and rivers.That is why I'd originally looked at distillation.

Any more input is welcome, I'm going to be seeing what I can put together here and once I have something setup I'll post the specs, pics and the outcome.

Bacteria is one of the easiest things to filter. Not sure what you mean by waste run off. Is it from a plant dumping toxic waste or more or less just poop and fertilizer from a upstream farm?

The biggest improvement you could make would be from natural settling that most lakes and ponds provide naturally. Meaning that you take your source water from a position below the surface but not near the bottom. Specific gravity working naturally to separate those things heavier or lighter then water.

As others have mentioned distillation (boiling) take lots of fuel. With lots of people and all their water needs you can expect that 3 people will be constantly working just to make water by the distillation method. One cutting the wood, one fetching water and one running the distiller.

By contrast one part time person can filter enough water for the whole group with only minimal intervention. Where filters fail is in heavily chemical contamination. If that's your only source then I'd tend to look elsewhere for water. Maybe dig a well or just move to greener pastures.

 

Lots of energy and such for an effect you could gain my turning the steel drum into a massive filter system.

The amount of wood and such needed to distill that much water, let alone cutting all that wood and how long you would have to keep and maintain that fire (making smoke, smell, and light that all give away your position) is not a good use of the resources.

Not to mention all that can go wrong with a still...you are talking about fire, pressure, and boiling water...together in one place. Stills blow up all the time; it does not need a major thing to go wrong. Filters and such NEVER blow up (when used as intended).

There are less labor, more energy efficient ways to make water safe.

 

Not to mention all that can go wrong with a still...you are talking about fire, pressure, and boiling water...together in one place. Stills blow up all the time; it does not need a major thing to go wrong. Filters and such NEVER blow up (when used as intended).

Alcohol stills may blow on occasion but...
Unless you are using some really small tubing and really high temperatures there isn't much of a pressure issue. The steam is free to exit the boiler through the condensing tubing. If you are really worried about it add a small overpressure valve.
Since water vapor and steam aren't combustable there isn't much risk of explosion.

 

Yep your spot on there. But then again if the filtration freezes, there wont probably be any water to actually collect thats not frozen without and axe. That's always a problem across the whole north. We run these off a tripod inside the big tent. But now that you mention it we have had buckets of snow inside melting on a few occasions. I hadn't really thought it was anything big, or to be honest really thought about it, but your right. With the woodstove going we have to leave the tent flaps open in the breeze or its so dry and stuffy its hard to take. We just always did it because it was handy for the girls to cook lol.

 

I think what some people are saying is: It's too easy and effective. You're cheating.

Distillation is the only sure method of getting clean water. Homemade filters are fancy and neat, but you still need to boil and you may still be getting chemical poisoning. Why not just boil?

Distillation is the same as boiling but also protects you from practically any chemical (such as farmland and mining run-off that is VERY common), heavy metals (lots of lead contamination in my area), salts, and everything beyond just organisms, and you don't need to add minerals. That's just for flavor.

As for fuel, that's not an issue for most of us. Wood or sun is almost always in abundance and you need fire for plenty of other things. Might as well put a water container above it.

 

Distillation is the same as boiling but also protects you from practically any chemical (such as farmland and mining run-off that is VERY common), heavy metals (lots of lead contamination in my area), salts, and everything beyond just organisms, and you don't need to add minerals. That's just for flavor.

You do realize there are many poisonous chemicals that vaporize faster than water, right? Just about every VOC will distill with the water unless you have a multi step system that bleeds off any vapors before the water gets to its distilling point and also ensures you never raise the temp above that of water to ensure higher boiling chemicals don't come over as well. Properly distilling to get only the water requires some very exacting standards that most folks with a garage setup won't be able to handle.

As for minerals, the most bioavailable come from those soluted in drinking water. You can get your minerals from food but you have to ensure your food supply carries them all and you must intake more of them because you don't absorb them as well from food as you do water.

 

i have been thinking about this a lot latley!! im in the suberbs. and water in a emergency situation. would be hard too come by. but not imposible. with all the hot water tanks. hoses,and swimming pools. would keep me in water for some time. how ever too generate your own!! has anyone ever thought of using a dehumidifier!! for water!! it pulls water vapor from the air and condenses it leaving clean fresh water!! with low power consumption! why even air conditioners. give off water as a by product......:thumb:

 

has anyone ever thought of using a dehumidifier!! for water!! it pulls water vapor from the air and condenses it leaving clean fresh water!! with low power consumption! why even air conditioners. give off water as a by product......:thumb:

you know... i have never thought of that, it might be worth looking into if you are confident about having electrical power.

 

hebegbz, sure would like to hear more about your solar oven that you designed, sounds
interesting. thanks

 

If i save up enough money to build a bug out location before everything hits the fan, part of my plans are to build a house in the style of an earthship, but with quality construction materials instead of garbage. There would be a cistern behind the back wall buried, that collects rain water from the roof, and i could add water to it via other means as well. 1" of rain would provide around 800 gallons of water. The cistern would drain into a 2 stage barrel setup(something like others have mentioned with activated carbon and whatever else) that ultimately empties into a tank that has a pump to pressurize the plumbing in the house, after which would be a large "whole home" water filter. I'd have a berkey as a backup also. The cistern would be treated regularly with pool shock. That's my plan as it stands, it's evolving as i learn more.

 

How is distilling not cheap and easy? Literally, I take 2 bottles and a hose and put one on a fire and the other not. That's it. The only thing beyond 1 step boiling is sticking a hose in the top of your container. Hell, you don't even need that. Take your mess kit and put a cup inside your pot. Turn the lid upside down so it drips down, put the water in the pot, boil, and then drink the distilled water now located in the cup.

Carbon filtration isn't exactly cheap or easy though, nor is it sustainable as the charcoal has to be regularly traded out. If all you're doing is making homemade charcoal and running water through it, that's not going to actually work (it's just going to make your water charcoal flavored unless it's a properly compacted and coated water filter, which has a limited life as it slowly clogs) and homemade charcoal is extremely fuel intensive and not easy to do either. Plus you're going to need to pre-filter anything that's not basically tap water to begin with as any debris will clog up your charcoal, whereas distilling simply leaves it at the bottom of the pot. It can be quite dangerous as well. I know all about making homemade charcoal. I made some just last week. My father in law's first attempt at it even resulted in a catostrophic explosion that left a gigantic hole in his concrete patio. Luckily no one was outside with it at the time or it would have been very ugly.

 

Yes, there are supply problems for carbon filtration, but home distillation doesn't solve those problems.

The only way distillation deals with toxins is through a fractioning tower that separates the various steamed liquids at precise temps.

Your 2 pot system cannot hold a precision temp. So all those chemicals that boil at temps above and below the boiling temp of water go into your recovery pot along with the water.

Your method may be easy enough for you to manage but it is still unnecessary. Without lab or industrial grade distillation all you are doing is killing the microbes, which boiling does just fine doing as well.

You are still left with those other chemicals in your water that you have to take out.

 

And it's also removing all the gunk in the water. You can distil brown or algae saturated water with all kinds of debris and get clean drinking water. Boiling just leaves you with brown/green water with dead microbes. Still no fun drinking boiled sludge instead of unboiled sludge and trying to run it through a carbon filter just clogs the filter and boiling the just increases the amount of crap dissolved in the water and makes it worse. I do use carbon, ceramic, etc filters and do have experience with what I can and can't do with them and carbon filters especially have serious clogging issues.

As for the very very few harmful things that are likely to be in high concentration in the distilled water that would distil over (remember you're dealing with boiling and condensation temperatures that both have to match), as someone has already told you in this thread, you just steam off the first bit that evaporates easier than water and then once you have a good steam going you connect it.

Harmful things with a boiling temp above water are almost all WAY above water and the boiling of the water and subsequent heat exchange regulates the temperature and it doesn't rise above the boiling temp very much.

The only things likely to be harmful are going to be heavy metals (lots of strip mine lakes here with high lead and mercury contamination) and things that make up sedement and general sludge and solids that are dissolved in the water but not a liquid or even close to water's very low boiling point.

Again, if you've got tap water during a typical boil order scenario or a rain barrel full of water to filter, a carbon filter is fine, but if you're dealing with dirty non-clear water, the best option is going to be something that leaves the dirty part of the water behind.

All different filtration types have their role (I use a ceramic filter on the go for clear water, and I distil if I've made camp), but you can't do everything with your brita pitcher.

 

Since when did "gunk" become a scientific term? :

But seriously, that boiled sludge is safe in terms of biological contaminants and is easily removed with nothing more complicated than sand.


As for your position that you can somehow perform fractionalization on the fly by letting the steam evaporate first you are very much mistaken. While VOC's do have a lower boiling temp that doesn't mean they always boil out first. Due to temp gradients in the pot itself you will have some that come out before, during, and after the water is steaming. This is why industrial and lab processes turn the entire volume of liquid into steam first and remove the water steam from the fractioning tower at the right level, leaving the lighter boiling liquids on top and heavier boiling liquids on the bottom.

You also completely passed over the fact that you cannot hold the temp to the precise level and so it will rise above water boiling temp and then begin boiling other contaminants that have a higher boiling point.

Finally, you are a bit dismissive of non-biological hazards. If you live in proximity to any urban, industrial, or agricultural area then you are very likely to find all kinds of toxins in a given sample of ground water. Pesticides, fuels, lubricants, natural arsenic, fertilizers, medicines, cleaning fluids, etc.

Biologicals are easy peazy to deal with. Boiling, bleach, iodine, micron ceramic, or potassium permanganate all are easy to use and deal with biologicals very well. It is the other toxins that are hard to deal with and the list of them is legion. Worse is your body has an immune system to fight against biologicals, but not against toxins. Many toxins just end up getting diverted to fat cells for storage and begin to build up if you don't eventually give your body a respite from the toxic sources so it can detox. If you keep drinking from the same toxic source daily your body will never get a break.

You want to use your 2 pot distiller? Fine. Just don't go making it out to be more than what it is. It's nothing more than a water boiler that kills biologicals. You still have all those toxins to deal with. You can use sand to get some of the large particle stuff, but anything soluted in the liquid needs carbon filtration or chemical remediation to deal with.

 

?, brita filters remove the needed minerals?

 

By all means show me someone that's died or even become ill from drinking distilled water due to diluted chemical run-off or from a lack of 'needed minerals' because of filtered water.

This is a survival forum, not a purist environmentalism one.

Beyond that, your brita filter isn't going to completely 100% eliminate them either. Just reduce them a bit, and distillation will leave far more of them behind. Plus we're adding a huge pile of activated carbon with a short lifespan, now a sand box, boiling pot, etc. You're using about the same amount of fuel, taking up far more size and weight, and filtering less. This is getting tiresome.

 

What's with this Brita business?

My carbon filtration is a PVC pipe system I made myself. Same for my sand filter as well. I use micron ceramic filters for biologicals. My system is entirely passive and continuous. It uses no fuel at all. Everything is easily obtained and affordable with the exception of the carbon. I pick that up for $60 for a 5 gallon pail (20lb).

Inlet > Sand > Micron Ceramic > Carbon > Storage.

It works because I lab test it regularly. My source is an urban runoff ditch near my home that the lab decided to start treating with double gloves after I brought the first unprocessed sample in. My end product is good enough to bottle for retail.

You make a lot of assumptions about me and take a lot of offense at me stating facts. You don't have to like the facts but there is no disputing them. You may tire of defending your system to me but that doesn't alter the fact of what your system is capable of doing. When I say your system is no better than boiling water it is a simple statement of fact, not a defense of a system you think I'm using, which I'm not.

If you don't care much about toxins that's your choice. It's not my choice because I know what groundwater can be like, namely hazardous for long term consumption.

And you can skip the environmentalist red herring. I spend my days making petrochemicals at the largest collection of refineries on the planet. I can't swing a dead cat in front of my jobsites without hitting a tree hugger.