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Curious as to where the obese fit into this level of coercion?
A valid question given its prevalence and new findings about obesity.

The hypothalamus regulates energy levels. The gland only accepts your fattest weight as normal. Everyone trying to lose weight faces a lifetime of resistance from this gland. It will always ramp up appetite and reduce energy use levels to return to the fattest point you have ever been.

Until we learn to reset its method of signalling we need to get medical science and medical insurance to quit thinking of fat removal as cosmetic surgery.

The hypothalamus doesn't weigh you. It determines the level of storage in each fat cell. Removal of fat doesn't make the hypothalamus want to increase the level of cell fat storage. It just shoots for homeostasis signals in the existing fat cells we already have.

Removal of visceral fat from under the stomach muscle might be the most effective choice to reducing the obesity related cardiac problems. But insurance would fight tooth and nail to accept that as a medical necessity. Doctors won't be very accepting either because of surgical risk. But they fool themselves thinking diet solves the problem, while they conveniently ignore what the hypothalamus is doing to resist the diet efforts.

The fact is that the only easy obesity cure is never gaining excess weight in the first place. Though the body never forgets the infant and prepuberty pudginess either.

The real cure will be learning to retrain the hypothalamus but research has proven much harder than expected. So the medical and insurance community dithers with useless diets when we have established surgical options already in the wheelhouse.

Any coercion has to offer the surgical option in order to be realistic.
 
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Oxford University has formulated a very encouraging C-19 vaccine.

Testing on monkeys has shown it also helps to block one of the biggest complications of C-19, namely pneumonia.

Those interested in the C-19 vaccine research might find this article very interesting:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/e...-other-efforts-to-beat-coronavirus-2020-05-14

Television news also mentioned this potential vaccine would also be easier to ramp up and produce faster.

Fast to produce and blocks the most significant secondary killer all sounds very positive.
 

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A valid question given its prevalence and new findings about obesity.

The hypothalamus regulates energy levels. The gland only accepts your fattest weight as normal. Everyone trying to lose weight faces a lifetime of resistance from this gland. It will always ramp up appetite and reduce energy use levels to return to the fattest point you have ever been.

Until we learn to reset its method of signalling we need to get medical science and medical insurance to quit thinking of fat removal as cosmetic surgery.

....

Any coercion has to offer the surgical option in order to be realistic.
The Set Point theory was at full steam in weight research when I was in grad school in the early 90s and is still considered a theory of weigh homeostasis though as of 2018 "observational studies on large populations do not provide consistent evidence for a biological control of body weight, which, if it exists, may be overridden by the influences of the obesogenic environment and culture on personal behavior and experiences."

Yo yo dieters do tend to trend back to their highest weight, but those who lose gradually can lose and maintain loss for life per research and what I've observed with clients ...much less dramatic than any sort of weight loss surgery, but so much safer.

What is most promising to me for weight control and overall good health is current research into a healthy gut microbiome. The average American diet high in simple carbs, unhealthy fats and inadequate fiber along with overuse of PPIs, antibiotics do not promote anything approaching a balance of good gut critters. This microbiota imbalance promotes inflammation which promotes obesity which promotes further inflammation and on and on in a negative feedback loop.

Here's a lay overview starting point for anyone interested in learning more: The key to weight-loss may be in the gut. The title is kinda "No ****, Sherlock" but does provide a starting point. More in depth is Gerard Mullin'sThe Gut Balance Revolution: Boost Your Metabolism, Restore Your Inner Ecology, and Lose the Weight for Good!. Citations need updating and he and his editors would've better served those interested by not trying to make it a popular 'diet' book. Most negative reviews are because people bought it as such based on the title but found the science too difficult to understand. It does, however, offer a comprehensive overview of the topic, extensive references and mostly sound dietary plans organized into phases to restore gut health ...which is much more complicated than swallowing a probiotic supplement.

Interestingly, a healthy gut microbiome (eubiosis) strengthens the body's natural immune response to infectious disease. The link provides a good overview of how and the importance of the first 1,000 days of life for gut eubiosis in children. A natural progression in my thinking to promote gut health and go very slowly with vaccinations before 2.5 years (none the first two months) after educating from birth the importance of a healthy gut and natural immune system development which will perhaps reduce or remove altogether redundant (often unstudied and possibly harmful) boosters.

But most of health promotion of any sort is a pipe dream in our culture due to apathy and a heathcare system wide tendency against adequate emphasis and staffing for health promotion education. I learned from teaching ServSafe years ago that more people than you would think do not even wash their hands after bowel movements. These people (and good many who do wash their hands) are not going to grasp the complexity of the topic, and if they do, simply will not care to do so for their children or for their own health. Health education is not a priority in our pharmaceutical driven health care paradigm. Instead, we encourage throwing ever increasing immunizations and pills into unhealthy bodies--some of which are beneficial, some of which do nothing and some of which are harmful.
 

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Allye, there are a million studies on obesity without yielding a consistent consensus, yet we have a tool in the box sitting unused because insurance doesn't want it classified as a legit medical treatment.




In any case, this isn't directly relevant to coercing compliance for vaccines.

Sidetracks are fine occasionally, but I'm not going to be party to a thread derail.
 
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Allye, there are a million studies on obesity without yielding a consistent consensus, yet we have a tool in the box sitting unused because insurance doesn't want it classified as a legit medical treatment.




In any case, this isn't directly relevant to coercing compliance for vaccines.

Sidetracks are fine occasionally, but I'm not going to be party to a thread derail.
Sorry. I get kind of carried away when I think of how recent research into healthy lifestyles that promote reduced inflammatory biomarkers and enhance the natural immune system will increase the efficacy of necessary vaccinations and reduce unproven, redundant boosters. It all relates to improved outcomes in infectious disease in my thought process which is the point of immunization.

But you're right, my last post wasn't about coercion, so I do apologize for getting off topic in that aspect.
 

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It all relates to improved outcomes in infectious disease in my thought process which is the point of immunization.
While I wholeheartedly agree that disease resistance/immunity is a whole lot more than simply vaccines, we have to keep in mind the mods created a limited scope arena here to maintain forum sanity.

One group talks provax and the other antivax. But the two topics are discretely about vaccinations.

This mod method limits scope, but it does keep the peace.

We tried having adult conversations were everything was on the table, but every last one of them ultimately ended up devolving into flame and meme wars. It had come to the point where the next step was to add vaccines to the short list of permanently forbidden topics. That this narrow band set of rules manages to work means we have to be mindful not to let the horse get back out of the barn.

I'm sure if you tried to make the topic you want about obesity and disease, and pointedly said in the OP that vaccines are not to be included in the discussion, then it might be quite interesting.
 

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While I wholeheartedly agree that disease resistance/immunity is a whole lot more than simply vaccines, we have to keep in mind the mods created a limited scope arena here to maintain forum sanity.

One group talks provax and the other antivax. But the two topics are discretely about vaccinations.

This mod method limits scope, but it does keep the peace.

We tried having adult conversations were everything was on the table, but every last one of them ultimately ended up devolving into flame and meme wars. It had come to the point where the next step was to add vaccines to the short list of permanently forbidden topics. That this narrow band set of rules manages to work means we have to be mindful not to let the horse get back out of the barn.

I'm sure if you tried to make the topic you want about obesity and disease, and pointedly said in the OP that vaccines are not to be included in the discussion, then it might be quite interesting.
The discussion of decreased immune response in the obese to vaccines is an important topic for vaccine discussion and something I only learned of over the past week so wished to discuss it. It becomes especially important when considering herd immunity. I posted it in response to your coercion post because the biological factors impacting vaccine efficacy and therefore herd immunity go far beyond vaccine coercion. Someone could've put it in the against vaccine thread as "oh, don't bother with herd immunity because Americans are fat" but that's not what I believe. I want effective, safe immunizations.

Even when the topic drifts into how lifestyle choices (as you feel this did --eating for a healthy gut microbiome which decreases obesity and inflammation, and promotes a healthy immune response including vaccine response), it may not be what you wish to discuss, but it is relevant to immunization efficacy, infectious disease control ...And survival which is what we're ultimately all about.

I wasn't around when the flaming messes you describe occurred, but can certainly understand that intellectually lazy 'cheerleaders' who've picked a 'team' and don't want to think beyond it would resort to that.

Thankfully, most thinking people don't see issues in terms of strict binary categories though our culture promotes polarization. I certainly don't in regards to vaccines so don't fall within a for or against 'group'. With two threads about vaccines, if I learn new information such as the obesity/vaccine efficacy problem, it must be determined which topic fits which thread. I don't think (certainly hope not!) that the creation of the two threads meant the marginalization of individuals into one thread/'group' or another except for those who were engaging in flaming rather than rational discussion.
 

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The discussion of decreased immune response in the obese to vaccines is an important topic for vaccine discussion and something I only learned of over the past week so wished to discuss it.
I'm not saying your points are invalid. I'm saying there is no way to have the larger discussion like you want at SB.

Only vaccination discussions in these two threads and you can't fence straddle on the issue.

Sucks, but it was either this or no vaccine discussions at all.

To have a discussion that covers the spectrum of pro and against and also brings in other significant health factors requires someplace other than SB to have it. You need a location that has a less defined set of speaking privileges and a mod team willing to step in early to be ruthless stomping out any escalation of rhetoric.

SB cannot be the perfect forum for all topics. No forum is.
 
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Report the post. Just click the red icon with the exclamation point in the upper-right corner of the offending post. That helps the mods.
Yep, we have an imperfect system here, but it works. The mods are good about keeping the fence up if you let them know that a bull from the other pasture broke through the fence. The bull is chased back and the fence gets mended.
 

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I've read all of this, and it was tempting to walk away, but I won't.

My life partner got her PhD while trying to defeat influenza. After almost a year of interviews, Genentech finally hired her, and I won't go into further details about her career trajectory out of respect for her privacy. To summarize it: they paid a steep price to move her to San Francisco, where she and I live, and every day I get to hear her stories about the meetings she's had with the doctors working in the ICU in the bay area. If I had any ideas as to how Big Pharma worked 7 years ago when I met her, they are now completely dispelled. Every day she and they are working their asses off trying to fix this predicament we're in. It is hard, it is frightening and it is fraught with debate - rigorous, scientific debate - about what the best path forward is.

After a thorough review of the data, one thing is crystal
****ing clear: the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are a godsend. Everyone we know - everyone she works with, all of our friends - will all be lining up to get them as soon as we possibly can.

I don't know what anyone else in this thread has spent their lifetime working on, but in my woman's case, it's been infectious disease, and in particular respiratory ailments. We'll get the ****ing shot.

--FS
 

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Vaccines are better than good, They're Great!

Because of them I have had none of the major diseases. No measles, chicken pox, small pox, lock jaw (tetanus), diphtheria, whooping cough, polio, meningitis, hepatitis A or B, pneumonia, mumps, and a host of others.

I rarely get the flu or even a cold. Thanks all to the miracle of vaccines.
X2 and I'll be 71 in three weeks.
 

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The anti-vaccine people are largely just nuts., IMO. They take unsubstantiated rumor and keep repeating it as fact and will not even consider evidence to the contrary.

I’m not suggesting every vaccine is equivalent in safety or efficacy. But vaccines in general are or should be considered a Godsend.

I haven’t decided whether to get the Covid shot yet, but looking at some of the wild and crazy stuff on the anti- vaccine side makes me wonder if anything over there can be believed. So I’ll keep an eye out for what appears to be fact-based info, ask my doc and my wife will ask her doc and we will go from there.
 

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There are some people that cannot take vaccines. These people are relatively safe if those that can take vaccines. 100% do not need to take vaccines to eradicate a virus.

I want to take the vaccine for COVID asap. If there are side effects it is best they show up on people like me. i am 72. I have lived my life. No matter when I go it will not be a tragedy. IMO doing for others especially family is why I have been given a long life. I sure do not otherwise deserve it.

So unless you have a medical reason take the vaccine and quit being afraid of your own shadow.
 

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There are some people that cannot take vaccines. These people are relatively safe if those that can take vaccines. 100% do not need to take vaccines to eradicate a virus.

I want to take the vaccine for COVID asap. If there are side effects it is best they show up on people like me. i am 72. I have lived my life. No matter when I go it will not be a tragedy. IMO doing for others especially family is why I have been given a long life. I sure do not otherwise deserve it.

So unless you have a medical reason take the vaccine and quit being afraid of your own shadow.
We’ve disagreed a few times in some of these discussions, but it’s clear here that you’re a decent person. I hope you have many years left - the world needs all the decent people it can find right now.
 

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We’ve disagreed a few times in some of these discussions, but it’s clear here that you’re a decent person. I hope you have many years left - the world needs all the decent people it can find right now.
Thank you for the comment and wishes. As for disagreeing, I am so disagreeable; if someone agrees with me all the time something is wrong. My best to you and yours.
 

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According to the whackadoodles on the other side, the vaccines are “killing everybody” so if you’ve gotten the vaccine please post on this thread every now and then so we can estimate how long it took for you to die. 🙄
 

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I've had both Covid vaccines now and got nothing more than a slightly sore arm for 1 day (I had to touch it to feel it was sore). I also grew up playing in the dirt and I believe I have a way better immune system than the snowflakes today. When I went to high school (about 1000 kids) there was maybe 1/2 doz kids that were allergic to something. These days, 1 in 6 kids has an allergy. You can't tell me something hasn't changed. I'd get my arse beat for not coming inside the house....now you have to beat the kids to get out of the house??
 

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I'm going to get vaccinated when my time comes but the state of Illinois says that the incarcerated comes ahead of me WFT.
Health care professionals have gotten theirs and just saw firemen at the hospital last week coming in for theirs.
None of the health care people I've talked to / dealt with had any adverse reaction to the shot.
But yesterday my neighbor that's a Doc said he felt terrible and had a fever with the second shot (lasted a day).

My luck it'll do a number on me as I've had some very bad interactions with drugs before.
Does anyone know that once your vaccinated do you not need a covid test before any procedures?
Lost count ..think I've had 7 so far.
 
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