[jfountain2]

This thread is for those wanting to show why vaccines are good.

ANY POSTING OF ARGUMENTS AGAINST VACCINES WILL BE REMOVED AND NOT NICELY.

I’m doing a thread for each side hoping to stop the argument and allow people to read actual facts in threads without a ****ing contest so everyone can make their own decision.

 

[ImStillHere]

This will be interesting, to see which side has better content..... I will duplicate this on the other thread so I dont skew the page count.....

 

[IamZeke]

Novel idea, jfountain2. I'm willing to give the idea a try.

So I made a post today in the last closed thread about what I found on the WHO site that seems like a good start concerning the most common misconceptions about vaccines. I'm going to write each misconception and provide a link to the answer.

"Diseases had already begun to disappear before vaccines were introduced, because of better hygiene and sanitation."
https://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/initiative/detection/immunization_misconceptions/en/index1.html

"The majority of people who get disease have been vaccinated."
https://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/initiative/detection/immunization_misconceptions/en/index2.html

"There are "hot lots" of vaccine that have been associated with more adverse events and deaths than others. Parents should find the numbers of these lots and not allow their children to receive vaccines from them."
https://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/initiative/detection/immunization_misconceptions/en/index3.html

"Vaccines cause many harmful side effects, illnesses, and even death - not to mention possible long-term effects we don't even know about."
https://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/initiative/detection/immunization_misconceptions/en/index4.html

"Vaccine-preventable diseases have been virtually eliminated from my country, so there is no need for my child to be vaccinated."
https://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/initiative/detection/immunization_misconceptions/en/index5.html

"Giving a child multiple vaccinations for different diseases at the same time increases the risk of harmful side effects and can overload the immune system".
https://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/initiative/detection/immunization_misconceptions/en/index6.html

WHO isn't the FDA, the latter that Antivax claims is in the pockets of Big Pharma.

WHO and Big Pharma clash often over drug pricing/availability worldwide.

 

[Bob3rd]

This is personal observation concerning myself, no scientific tests or links involved. For as long as I can remember I always had two bad bouts of Bronchitis each year, one about Oct/Nov the other late Jan/Feb. They would always be bad, put me in bed for a week at least but never seemed to have the flu. Then in 2005 I went to work at a place that offered free flu shots, we were all heavily encouraged to take advantage so I got one in Aug. For some reason I didn't get Bronchitis that year, nothing but the usual year round allergies I tend to keep. The next year I got another flu shot...no Bronchitis again! This went on for about twelve years without bronchitis, getting a flu shot summer each year. Then in 2017 for some reason I delayed getting the shot until next thing I know I've got pneumonia, a first for me!. I wound up having two relapses with it that winter, my Dr thinking it would not be advisable to get the flu shot under the circumstances. It took me about a year to fully recover from the effects of the pneumonia. This past summer I got another flu shot....no bronchitis, no pneumonia. Don't care whatever anyone says I'll continue with the flu shots.

 

[IamZeke]

Vaccine systems don't work without 90 to 95 % compliance. Short of there being no global movement to avoid them then voluntary systems are the same as no system. Advocating a 100% voluntary system is effectively saying there is no actual system. Sure, you could still have vaccines, but no system. My links above talk about the threat being reduced in regions and they relaxed compliance. In those cases they always had eruptions of new cases and they had to re-institute compliance.

In the days before the Antivax movement choice was possible because people used their doctors for info instead of the internet.

Unless you are willing to utterly crush the Antivax movement in some way that stops all false propaganda in its tracks and ensures science based information is the only type out there then giving choice back is doomed to fail.

You have to choose between the right to lie and the right of self body control. Allowing both drops herd immunity to unsustainable levels. Herd immunity is the number one fundamental underpinning of the vaccine system.

 

[HomeDefense]

My dad had shingles twice, and so did a friend of mine. I saw the pain they went through. I therefore did get the Zoster shingles vaccine.

Several friends who were very healthy did get pneumonia. I did get the Prevnar 13 shot and will get the Pneumovax 23 after waiting a year.

Most vaccines get a bad rap due to the explosion of autistic problems in kids, the lack of effectiveness with the flu vaccination, and the presence of Thimerosal in some vaccines. Not all vaccines are bad or have any harmful side effects. The solution is to choose wisely.

Autism rates are exploding but haven't been any positive connections established between vaccinations and autism. Lots of things have changed in our environment that could be causing the problem. Look more closely at the addition of Thimerosal than with the vaccine itself.

In order for the flu vaccine to be effective, doctors need to be able to predict which strain of flu is likely to dominate the season. That is about as accurate as a roll of the dice. Some years the flu vaccine is effective, while other years it is not.

Then there is the issue of Thimerosal, which is where I draw the line. The only vaccines I won't take are the ones containing mercury. Before you get any vaccine, ask the pharmacist or your doctor about the presence of Thimerosal. From what I understand, live virus vaccines do not contain Thimerosal because it kills everything. There are also variations of most Thimerosal-containing vaccines that do not contain Thimerosal and are available upon request. Mercury has a long history of causing mental and neurological problems.

 

[goat daddy]

I worked in disability for many years. While a few people had a reaction to vaccination there was never a case of disability from a vaccination. Never once did I have a case of cervix cancer from a woman who had been vaccinated. Never had a case of small pox. Vaccination has all but removed the disease from our nation. Vacinations stimulate the bodies immune system and as such a temp reaction should be expected. The autism argument was a fallacy all along the has been proven false many times. Some vaccines such as the flu vaccine give protection/ limited protection from some strains of the flu. There are many strains. The vaccine are designed to attack the strains anticipated this year or have struck this year. The mercury argument is humorous, I remember when diaretics contained mercury. One should follow the advice of their medical doctor. Remember that the doctor may not refer to a medical degree. My son had a JD. he is an attorney, chiropractor and naturopaths are not medical degrees. For that matter Dr Clark my anthropology professor was not a medical professional. For medical information one should listen to their medical professional and not the fools on the internet. Get you vaccination.

 

[MattB4]

Vaccines are better than good, They're Great!

Because of them I have had none of the major diseases. No measles, chicken pox, small pox, lock jaw (tetanus), diphtheria, whooping cough, polio, meningitis, hepatitis A or B, pneumonia, mumps, and a host of others.

I rarely get the flu or even a cold. Thanks all to the miracle of vaccines.

 

[RobertSWMissouri]

There is no "good" vs "bad": there are pro's and con's to everything. When I have patients who do not want ANY vaccines, I try to find out WHY to address that, but I also review that all or none is a BAD IDEA even if you have concerns. I don't bring up herd immunity at this time. I ask them/ help them with the answers to 4 questions for EACH vaccine. How common is the disease ? How severe is the disease ? How effective is the vaccine ? How safe is the vaccine. Tetanus is everywhere, down to 'only' 35% death rate if you get, the vaccine is very effective, risk is LOW. I have had 3 patients die over the years from tetanus, none had been vaccinated. One was the typical rusty nail in a horse yard, one was from a scratch on the eye from a leaf while out hunting, and one was from a little triangle flap from a rose bush.... IF they all had come in within 48 hours, they could have got the $700 / more risky "right now but temporary" shot and the regular vaccine. Even if they have been 50 years out of date, but had received they as a child, they would only need the cheap booster.
My kids have had all the shots, but got them spread out a lot more than the 'usual' schedule that even the CDC states is NOT best for effectiveness, but get's as many in at one time as possible. The older you are, the more spread out they are, the more EFFECTIVE they are !!! You DO have to get them in the child BEFORE the risk... Hepatitis B vaccine; if not drug use / sexual abuse in the household, AND there are not Hep B carriers living in the household, they do we really need to give at birth ?

IF you have a child with frequent ear infections, is it better to have surgery for tubes in the ears, or to have BOTH pneumonia shots (if over 2) AND a flu shot (ONE of the RARE times I actually push the flu shot) which over 50% of the time works BETTER than surgery ?

If I can get tetanus in someone who wants no shots, that's a win.
If we can later get measles, that's even better! ESPECIALLY for females !!!
If we can get them a pneumonia at age 65 (2 for chronic health problems or 21 if a smoker) that a LOT BETTER.

Autism FEAR ???? Is is common for the onset of autism to happen shortly after getting immunizations... and facts rarely outweigh emotions. LARGE study of children who never received a vaccine vs who has ALL ON SCHEDULE, and the rate of autism was MUCH HIGHER in the one's who NEVER RECEIVED ANY VACCINES ! I will go out on a limb, and say the onset of autism is from a stress trigger (but it would have happened sooner or later anyway), and often the trigger is vaccines... not the CAUSE, just the final straw that broke the camels back.

 

[BabyBlue]

The famous Iditorod dog race in Alaska is commemorative of a desperate rush to get cure/preventative serum to children dying of diphtheria. They thought it a good thing at the time. I can't fathom why anyone would think it a bad thing and risk their own child, and others, by not doing everything in their power to assure they wouldn't sit there and helplessly watch ALL their children slowly strangle to death. Just doesn't make sense.

 

[Reasonable Rascal]

Further proof that vaccination works: no foaming at the mouth in this thread.

RR

 

[MattB4]

Further proof that vaccination works: no foaming at the mouth in this thread.

RR

They have a vaccine for "foaming at the mouth"?

I could make up a elaborate conspiracy theory as to why "They" do not want people to be vaccinated. All funded by evil medical people and hospitals that profit immensely from illness. I mean really would they just want a few measly dollars from a vaccine or tens of thousands from treating a seriously sick child? Seems a no brainer.

 

[Reasonable Rascal]

They must have. That said folks can argue in this thread without foaming shows that vaccination works. Like it did with smallpox.

This whole debate reminds me of the No Circ people. I used to do a lot of business with them selling disposable single-use circumcision trays and Gomco circ clamps (evil stainless steel buggers, them) back when I had the prepper med supply business. The trays were just useful sterile instruments Joe Non Le' Docteur could safely use for simple wound stuff that could be had at a reasonable price. But suddenly I was selling them all the way to Alaska, to people with email addies of "[email protected]" etc. The funny thing was that they all seemed to be women (???) or guys who had been circed as babies and who decided that no man should be, and that they should even be able to have reverse circs. (double triple ???).

The whole point is that the anti-vax folks, like the No Circ people, are on the fringes. They depend on junk science, emotion and specious arguments to make their case. It is only when they come out with their world population reduction proposals and "survival of the fittest" arguments that their true agendas are brought to the light. Which boil down to stuff that belongs in the religion sub-forum because it is prompted by a different 'master.'

RR

 

[penguinman000]

The difficulty discussing this topic can be boiled down to philosophical differences and ignorance.

Philosophically differences are the strongest argument anti-vaxxers have IMHO. It’s a free society and I should be able to choose what is best for my family. The problem with that argument is vaccination is a public health issue. When someone chooses not to vaccinate they are making a choice for everyone in their community. Reasonable people agree that burning feces and trash in your yard isn’t a wise choice for a myriad of reasons. Chief amongst them; it is your property but the choice to burn waste in your yard affects your neighbor. Choosing not to vaccinate also places your neighbors at substantial risk. Not vaccinating is not only your choice; you are making a choice to expose others not in your monkeysphere.

The ignorance piece largely started with Wakefield (an intelligent, educated man who consciously choose to lie in an effort to line his own pockets) and continues with actors spouting garbage on topics they have no command of. But they sure do sound good and appear sincere. Lump that in with pro vaccination folks using words like “safe” while the antivax crowd hears “without risk” and you have our current Madness. Not to mention the anti-vaxxers I’ve run across tend to be scientifically illiterate. If you don’t understand what a “n” number is your input into the discussion is just white noise.

Public health issues are not the same as free speech or the 2nd amendment. Calling someone a nasty name or carrying a firearm does not directly cause the person called a bad name, or the unarmed masses, to contract an illness and die. Not getting vaccinated kills people.

And congrats to the mods for attempting to get a handle on this silliness.

 

[Im RIght]

Vaccine systems don't work without 90 to 95 % compliance. Short of there being no global movement to avoid them then voluntary systems are the same as no system. Advocating a 100% voluntary system is effectively saying there is no actual system. Sure, you could still have vaccines, but no system. My links above talk about the threat being reduced in regions and they relaxed compliance. In those cases they always had eruptions of new cases and they had to re-institute compliance.

In the days before the Antivax movement choice was possible because people used their doctors for info instead of the internet.

Unless you are willing to utterly crush the Antivax movement in some way that stops all false propaganda in its tracks and ensures science based information is the only type out there then giving choice back is doomed to fail.

You have to choose between the right to lie and the right of self body control. Allowing both drops herd immunity to unsustainable levels. Herd immunity is the number one fundamental underpinning of the vaccine system.

To be fair, there is a misinformation on each side.

The position you take on this is actually not the same as most who give you "likes". You accept the risk. You acknowledge the risk. You disregard the risk to the individual. You care about the risk to herd immunity which is really the benefit of immunization. I don't agree with your philosophy, but I respect your position due to the level of honesty.

EDITED.

 

[Im RIght]

Autism FEAR ???? Is is common for the onset of autism to happen shortly after getting immunizations... and facts rarely outweigh emotions. LARGE study of children who never received a vaccine vs who has ALL ON SCHEDULE, and the rate of autism was MUCH HIGHER in the one's who NEVER RECEIVED ANY VACCINES ! I will go out on a limb, and say the onset of autism is from a stress trigger (but it would have happened sooner or later anyway), and often the trigger is vaccines... not the CAUSE, just the final straw that broke the camels back.

Do you have a specific study you can post a link for?

 

[IamZeke]

I am not trying to push the topic directions.

Try reading the OP. You don't get to talk about both sides of the issue here.

There are two threads and they cannot overlap. One pro, one con. Blending isn't permitted. Post your pro in one and con in the other. This thread has already been scrubbed once for someone else trying it and you risk mod trouble for trying it again. I suspect the more it happens the higher the irritation level of the mods who created this experiment.

Better to scrub your posts and rethink how you want to approach these threads.

 

[Reasonable Rascal]

It is like a scab that some cannot help but pick at.

RR

 

[Im RIght]

It is like a scab that some cannot help but pick at.

RR

Some people try to have conversations. Other's make personal attacks. The later ruins it for the former.

 

[MattB4]

The difficulty discussing this topic can be boiled down to philosophical differences and ignorance.

Philosophically differences are the strongest argument anti-vaxxers have IMHO. It’s a free society and I should be able to choose what is best for my family. ...

It is not simply a philosophic argument. It is a a comparison of risk versus benefit. By taking the vaccine you accept that there are some minute risks but the benefit of not getting the associated disease is a major gain not only to you but to others as will.

The antivax side has successfully, in many cases, managed to flip this risk benefit ratio on its head by convincing people that the risk of the vaccine is higher than getting the disease. In their minds they are not making a philosophical argument or even the argument of a tobacco smoker that knows that cigarettes are harmful but enjoy them in spite of that. They truly believe they are making a rational choice based on the information they have.

Unfortunately once a person believes something they seek out information that feeds that belief. They are resistant to changing their opinion.