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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
During the NYC blackout of 2003, looting was minimal, and in fact, violent crime was lower overall on that day:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/16/n...me-fewer-arrests-as-the-city-stayed-dark.html

Conversely, of course, we have the infamous example of mass looting and crime that happened in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.

I think the key difference was policing. In the first instance, the city had a highly competent and well-staffed police force that stayed on the job during the blackout. The blackout also didn't last for more than a few hours, and the situation could have gotten worse had it persisted. On the other hand, Katrina knocked out everything in New Orleans for days, and in some areas for weeks. The police were also less competent, and many of them didn't show up to work during the emergency period.

If you're thinking ahead to plan for possible civil unrest in your area should TSHTF, consider how the most likely disasters would affect policing. Consider whether you could expect things to immediately fall apart as they did in New Orleans, or whether you would at least have a day or two of tolerable citizen behavior thanks to a good police force that would hold things together long enough for you to make a clean and orderly escape.
 

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WINNING...humbly
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It depends on the quality of people. There is never enough force to police those who is out there to do harm to each other.

We had some of the worst fires in 2007. Hundreds of thousands were evacuated. Guess what? No murders, no looting, no rapes. Most people in America probaly did not even hear about it.



 

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I think the difference(s) were:
1 Length of 'breakdown' (the blackout was what, a day? Katrina took FOREVER to clean up)

2 Demographics of area hit (Looting is more prevalent areas where poor/rich meet)

3 Law enforcement (you touched on this)

NY is generally better off (more affluent), so looting was less of a problem.
 

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I wonder whether there will be differences in looting attitudes/responses toward Big Boxes, grocery stores, etc. versus private homes. The Big Box is somewhat of an "alien" entity economically speaking, requires a now-global supply chain, is owned by investors worldwide, etc. Given its lack of a "personal" owner, or even a well-defined national identity, who's going to defend it?

While we all assume that real individuals will protect their persons and homes against looters, whose job will it be to defend the Big Box? Who'll be paying them to do so?
 

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Maximus
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You can not compare a situation where a few people were in the dark for a few hours to a situation where dead bodies are floating down your street. Sorry.

If a Katrina situation hit NYC, there wouldnt be enough police to stop the crapstorm that is bound to happen when you stick 2 million people in 20 square miles.
 

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Gettin By
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I think it is all a matter of circumstances. Generally most people will do whatever they think they can without getting caught. There is the element in society that still understands right and wrong, but the majority don't. If someone took a loaf of bread because they needed it to eat in a disaster that would be one thing. But if you look at the video that came out of Ktrina of the looters you see them with big screen TV's, designer clothing and stereo equipment. Hardly things they needed to survive the storm.

One other issue is that since the LA riots, Katrina and other such situations like these, people have taken a much harder line with these issues. If you look at the Korean district of LA during the riots, the Korean bussiness owners armed up and told the looters that they would not be allowed to steel in that part of town and backed it up with firepower. The looters moved on.

If you figure that the avrage ratio of Police Officers to residents of most communities is 1000:1 (and in some cases less than that) beliveing that the Police can/will be able to protect their communities from major unrest is not realistic thinking. Short term maybe, not not long term disruption. People will need to be prepared to protect themselves.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
How many people in NYC are on the public dole versus how many in NO were on the public dole at the time of the events?
That's a good observation. Remember that the only people who didn't evacuate New Orleans beforehand were the poor people who "didn't have the resources to get out," which is a real crock, IMO. If you can't scrape together $200 for a round-trip Greyhound ticket to Texas and a couple nights in a motel to escape one of the biggest disasters in decades, you've got to be a pretty irresponsible and incompetent dumba$$. Get a city full of people like that, not enough police, all alarms out thanks to no electricity, and the magic starts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I wonder whether there will be differences in looting attitudes/responses toward Big Boxes, grocery stores, etc. versus private homes. The Big Box is somewhat of an "alien" entity economically speaking, requires a now-global supply chain, is owned by investors worldwide, etc. Given its lack of a "personal" owner, or even a well-defined national identity, who's going to defend it?

While we all assume that real individuals will protect their persons and homes against looters, whose job will it be to defend the Big Box? Who'll be paying them to do so?
The Big Box stores have insurance anyway and know that it would be bad for business overall if they were seen putting armed guards outside the stores to keep a bunch of desperate people out.
 

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During the 1965 and 1977 blackouts NYC was a disaster - 77 was not as bad as 65.

2003 blackout - big change in the people living in the city - more money in city now - no riots or looting. the cops flooded the areas where looting may take place.
Washington Heights is a low income area - people all came out and they had BBQs going and had a major block party.
 

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I believe the odds of having riots depend upon:
- population demographics
- duration and severity of the incident
- visibility of law enforcement.

With Katrina in NOLA, I can't help but feel sympathy for those who took as many steps as necessary to prepare and still found themselves coming up short because of the nature of the disaster. However, if you look at the welfare crowd, you're not looking at the best examples of planning, prudence, or preparedness or they would eventually find the initiative to get off the public dime. It's the latter category, I believe, that caused most of the problems in NOLA and are likely still causing trouble in their new homes.
 

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If you wish to survive a SHTF event in an urban area it's simple, MOVE. The OP is from DC of all places, the murder capital of the world. How many do the police prevent? If you stay in DC through a major SHTF event you will die because is populated with trash, period. Looting will be the least of your worries...
 

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One thing not mentioned is the strategy of the "leaders". IN the L. A. riots, they cordoned off the area and let them burn it out( too dangerous for fire and EMT to go in, as they were getting shot at). Katrina was a natural barrier and policing was nearly impossible( not to mention, most police refused to police).
 

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Today's Survival Show
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The attitude of the people in your neighborhood factors somewhat, but when chaos ensues, people do things beyond reason and expectation. You have to assume that many people will loot, riot, etc., if they are not prepared, even if you never thought they would do that. Desperation sets in at some point.

So be prepared to defend your home. You're not a survivalist unless you are protected. More than just guns too. Home security system, new door locking hardware, etc. There are 3 layers of defense.

Today's Survival Show
www.TodaysSurvival.com
 

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In all honesty, do you think very many people actually "defended" their property during Katrina? I don't recall any reports where people actually shot someone to prevent their property from being stolen or family hurt. I have read where people didn't allow "certain" people in their neighborhoods but that is it.
 

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Washington Heights is a low income area - people all came out and they had BBQs going and had a major block party.
I saw in various blogs at the time how this time as opposed to the previous blackouts there, people came out and made a presence of themselves. Any hanky panky and the natives got heavy with the perpetrators.
The way it should be.
 
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