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Indefatigable
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2 quick things to add to the thread: I disagree with the notion, people see "UFOs" that look like what everyone tells them they should look like. Or they see shapes common to their time. The object I saw in 1979 didn't look like any UFO I had ever heard described or seen a picture of. After decades of looking at UFO pics, it was only recently that I saw a drawing that was even close.
Also when it comes to classifying unidentified entities, I don't think think its accurate to claim all (or maybe not even any) of them are from outer space, biological or afraid of us.
 

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American by Choice
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I've seen unexplainable objects in the sky on two different occasions. I'm familiar with aircraft, have worked on airbases for years. I'm reasonably well read and educated and I've never been able to come up with any object or phenomenon which would explain the two things I saw, despite plenty of research.

Do I think they were aliens? I have no idea. They were just unexplainable objects in the sky. There's probably a completely rational, terrestrial explanation that I just haven't found yet. But who knows?

Do I think aliens exist? Probably. The universe is an unimaginably large place so there's got to be other life forms out there. But the objects in it are also unimaginably far apart. It would take some kind of radically new (to us) form of transportation for them to ever even reach us.

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The one I have a harder time rationalizing away is one that happened to some family friends. They saw what was described as a roughly saucer shaped craft covered in numerous lights (sounded to me like a stereotypical movie flying saucer) about 50 meters across fly over their fields, drive their farm animals nuts, fly over their house then hover and set down in the field behind their home. After a couple minutes it took off again and shot up into the sky as an incredibly fast streak of light.

The interesting part, at least for me, came later. I used to live on a farm with this family we knew, during the summers as I grew up. I guess my parents had known this family for years, really great friends. My parents figured, and quite rightly in my opinion, that it would be a good experience for me to spend some time on a farm. I learned a LOT, not just about farming and animal husbandry, but about hard work.

While herding some sheep in a large field a half mile or a mile from the farm house, I found a melted rock, maybe about 3' long and 2' high. I mean REALLY melted. I thought it was a meteorite, especially since it was resting in a small circular crater where no plants would grow. I was very young at the time and didn't yet know that a meteorite that size would most likely break apart on impact, and regardless of whether or not it broke apart, would leave a crater MUCH larger than four or five feet across.

The crater was very smooth, like if a massive sphere that was maybe 10 or 15 feed in diameter was set down and made a nice clean depression in the ground then taken away just leaving the "footprint" behind. There was no raised edge. Grass grew right up to the edge, but as soon as the earth started sloping down into the crater, the grass stopped in a well defined line. The "meterorite" or whatever it was, looked like it had just been set down nice and carefully in the center of the depression. I asked the farmer about it. This was before I'd heard the UFO story from my parents. He just shrugged and went on about his business.

When I got home after the summer that I'd found that odd rock, I told my parents about it and that's when they told me the UFO story. They told me there were only a few people that farm family had told the story to, and most of them seemed to think they were nuts and ceased contact with them, so they never told anyone else about it. My parents said we were the only family they knew who'd been told the UFO story and was still friends with them, and that it probably wouldn't be a good idea to press them for details about that melted rock, in case it was somehow related.

After hearing the story about the UFO I remembered how a big area in one corner of the pasture behind the house where the milk cows graze was always dead. Nothing grew there. I'd never thought much of it. So the next summer I went out to that pasture. Sure enough, it was in direct view out the back window of the house, where supposedly that UFO in their story had hovered then set down. A very large and roughly circular patch of dirt, bigger than the house. Nothing growing, not even weeds, but it didn't have the well defined edges where the grass stopped growing like at the edge of the melted rock crater. I looked all over to see if there were any markings of any sort on the ground but couldn't find anything, other than the lack of plants. It had apparently been many, many years since their unexplainable sighting, and the ground had weathered considerably due to rains, snow and such.

Well, being a 9 year old, you can imagine how well I listened to my parent's advice. I asked the farmer about the story, and the dead patch of pasture. He paused and his mouth formed into a tight line. He thought for a minute, then just said "there's some things we don't talk about." And that was it. It was never mentioned again. I still wonder about that melted rock though. I haven't been to that farm in over 30 years and I have no idea who owns it now. If it wasn't 1000 miles away I'd be tempted to go back there and see if the rock is still around. Maybe winch it up into a truck and see if some university geologist could tell me what it was.
 

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Despite what I have said in this thread I actually beleive that aliens exist. I just dont think that every unexplained thing is a UFO.

Back in 2008-2009, my wife and I were driving out in town outside of MCAS Cherry Point in NC. It was a bright sunny day. All of a sudden I saw something that I swore was a UFO for a few minutes. It was so impossible looking that I had no idea what it was.

Then after the craft turned I realized that it was actually an Osprey that was traveling at a strange angle from where we were but it was so different looking from the angle I couldnt identify it.

Just because you dont know what something is doesnt make it alien.
 
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Comic, not your lawyer!
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Do I think aliens exist? Probably. The universe is an unimaginably large place so there's got to be other life forms out there. But the objects in it are also unimaginably far apart. It would take some kind of radically new (to us) form of transportation for them to ever even reach us.
Just 600 years ago, which is literally a blink in terms of time and space, humans widely believed the earth was flat and the sun and planets revolved around the earth. The known or recorded world was basically Europe and Asia. 200 years ago, humans couldn't even fly. Travel across the oceans was an endeavor and risky. A few relatively simple inventions and combining some science concepts (combustion engine, thrust, etc.) has allowed us to conquer the seemingly impossible.

The point is that as vast and unknown as the universe, if intelligent creatures have even 1,000 years head start (nothing in the billions of years of the universe), and have evolved at our pace, it's quite possible for inventions to bend time/space and open up wormholes, and other science fiction travel.

In other words, at our current pace of technology growth (doubling every 6 months or something similar), assuming we don't kill off our species first, I think long-distance space travel will be commonplace. It's fair to assume in the vastness of the universe, intelligent life is out there, and might even have a head start by tens of thousands of years in evolution and science.
 

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Comic, not your lawyer!
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Despite what I have said in this thread I actually beleive that aliens exist. I just dont think that every unexplained thing is a UFO.

Back in 2008-2009, my wife and I were driving out in town outside of MCAS Cherry Point in NC. It was a bright sunny day. All of a sudden I saw something that I swore was a UFO for a few minutes. It was so impossible looking that I had no idea what it was.

Then after the craft turned I realized that it was actually an Osprey that was traveling at a strange angle from where we were but it was so different looking from the angle I couldnt identify it.

Just because you dont know what something is doesnt make it alien.
I had a similar experience around 2011, so I'm very cautious about human observations and jumping to rash conclusions.

About 2011, I was driving on a major interstate into a major city population of probably 1 million. As you approach this city, there are a few elevated vantage points with a very good view of the skyline. About 3 miles out, between trees and in clearings (mind you, driving 60mph), I saw a weird craft that appeared to be hovering. Big, like a commercial sized jet, but moving far too slow. Was not a helicopter for certain, it was too large. It looked like a long tube like wingless object, nearly stationary.

I actually was so convinced it was a UFO I got my camera out while driving and took a picture.

As I got closer and from different angles, my curiousity was satisified. It was a plane carrying a trailing streamer. The angle and distance from where I observed it made it appear really slow moving, and really long like a long tube. I couldn't see the wings due to distance and angle.

So, while I do believe in ETs and am convinced in what I saw when I was 12, I am also measured in jumping to conclusions.
 

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There is a huge difference between there being intelligent life in the universe and that intelligent life coming here to Earth. Saying that the various UFO sightings might all be false is not anywhere near the same as saying we are alone in the Universe.

Let's look at the logistics of the situation. Suppose there is an intelligent species on a planet a mere 1,000 light years away. Relatively close by cosmic terms. They haven't received our earliest radio signals yet, so they don't even know we exist yet. If their own scientists have determined that there is a planet here capable of supporting life, there is no reason for them to believe it's intelligent. Or if there is even life. But let's suppose they are curious enough to ask the next question: 'Should we go?'

A trip of 1,000 light years is a massive and daunting undertaking. Even if they were capable of traveling at near-lightspeed, and were capable of calculating Earth's position 2,000 years in it's future(trust me, it's necessary if they want to get here), they would arrive not on the Earth they observed, but on an Earth 2,000 years after their last observation; 1000 years for the time it took light to reach their world, PLUS the 1,000 years later they would arrive here(though it would seem faster to them due to time dilation, time would still pass normally for the rest of the universe). So, they would be taking a massive risk as they would have absolutely no idea what could happen to Earth in that interim time. Any one of countless things could make their trip a complete waste; if it ever was worthwhile to begin with. And when they get back home, they get back 2,000 years after they left.

Now increase that distance to 10,000 light years. 30,000 light years. 30 million light years. So that's why intelligent life probably never visited Earth. Not because they are 'scared' of us, but because we're not worth the trip.
I think you are comparing and contrasting what our current understanding of physics is to an advanced civilization thousands of years ahead of us.

I agree with your assessment of the time and distances involved, with two civilizations at the same level and understanding and similarly known physics.

On the other hand if Drakes equation is juxtaposed to the observable universe who is to say what's out there. Conversely, looking at the universe we can't see that is vastly older, it's not difficult to imagine a civilization magnitudes older that utilizes methods and science that could best be described as magic to us. They could come and go (here) like we go to the corner store and think nothing about it.

Has this happened? I don't know. People see things all the time. I am in that camp, and can't rationalize what I saw. My best effort in that vain would be to describe what I saw as a meteor just above the horizon and below the setting moon that made a right angle turn and shot across the sky at such a velocity it disappeared in seconds.

:)
 

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"Everbody has a plan . .&quot
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"Just 600 years ago, which is literally a blink in terms of time and space, humans widely believed the earth was flat . . "

Not to be pedantic or get too far away from the OP, but they hardly thought the World was flat. The ancient Greeks actually knew it was a sphere ( an oval eliptoid, actually) and measured it's circumference accurately within a couple of thousand miles using the Sun.
Think about it for a moment. If you're standing on a dock watching a ship sail away into the distance & instead of it dropping entirely out of sight all at once, don't you observe the hull slowly disappear. . . then the sails . . . and finally the tip of the mast. There's your proof it's round. The people 500 or even 5000 years were just as smart as those today.
 

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Comic, not your lawyer!
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"Just 600 years ago, which is literally a blink in terms of time and space, humans widely believed the earth was flat . . "

Not to be pedantic or get too far away from the OP, but they hardly thought the World was flat. The ancient Greeks actually knew it was a sphere ( an oval eliptoid, actually) and measured it's circumference accurately within a couple of thousand miles using the Sun.
Think about it for a moment. If you're standing on a dock watching a ship sail away into the distance & instead of it dropping entirely out of sight all at once, don't you observe the hull slowly disappear. . . then the sails . . . and finally the tip of the mast. There's your proof it's round. The people 500 or even 5000 years were just as smart as those today.
Yes, I understand.

Besides you're missing the point. 500 or 1000 or 3000 years in the history of the universe is figuratively a snap in time. It's quite reasonable to believe both that the universe is vast and at billions of years old, other intelligent capable life has been around far longer than us, with advances we cannot even fathom.
 

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Yes, I understand.

Besides you're missing the point. 500 or 1000 or 3000 years in the history of the universe is figuratively a snap in time. It's quite reasonable to believe both that the universe is vast and at billions of years old, other intelligent capable life has been around far longer than us, with advances we cannot even fathom.
With all due respect... And more reasonable to consider the evidences that the universe is actually quite young. Moon dust only inches deep instead of hundreds of feet as NASA planners thought when they put those unnecessary saucer feet on the first lunar lander. Planets and moons that are recently discovered to be geologically active instead of cold and hard as they should be after billions of years. The Earth's magnetic field not decayed as it should be at the current rate of decay and the assumed long ages. And the list goes on, and on. The problem is largely with uniformitarian assumptions and circular thinking. I commend to you the evidences for a young universe that are amassing at the major Creation Science websites. ICR.ORG would be an excellent start.

Cheers.
 

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Retrofitted Sheeple
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With all due respect... And more reasonable to consider the evidences that the universe is actually quite young. Moon dust only inches deep instead of hundreds of feet as NASA planners thought when they put those unnecessary saucer feet on the first lunar lander. Planets and moons that are recently discovered to be geologically active instead of cold and hard as they should be after billions of years. The Earth's magnetic field not decayed as it should be at the current rate of decay and the assumed long ages. And the list goes on, and on. The problem is largely with uniformitarian assumptions and circular thinking. I commend to you the evidences for a young universe that are amassing at the major Creation Science websites. ICR.ORG would be an excellent start.

Cheers.
Actual scientific observation and testing continues to support that the universe is at a minimum 13.5 to 13.8 billion years old.
 

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Retrofitted Sheeple
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And what of mountains of evidence to the contrary? Until someone hears from both sides they are merely repeating what they've heard.

icr.org Check it out.
I know all about icr.org and the so-called 'evidence' they tout. Here's the problem: It isn't evidence. It's speculation. Evidence is data that is collected by testing. Testing that is falsifiable and repeatable. So please, show me one repeatable, falsifiable test that has gathered data that specifically supports an existing hypothesis supported by observation. Because I can do that for an 13.5+ billion year old universe. Specifically, I can show you pictures taken from a scientific study intended to see how far back into the past we can see that demonstrates galaxies as they appeared 13+ billion years ago. And at any time, that experiment can be repeated and produce consistent results.

So please show me similar: The consistent results of repeatable tests that produces EMPIRICAL evidence that the universe is a specific much younger age.
 

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Here Another Day!
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I know all about icr.org and the so-called 'evidence' they tout. Here's the problem: It isn't evidence. It's speculation. Evidence is data that is collected by testing. Testing that is falsifiable and repeatable. So please, show me one repeatable, falsifiable test that has gathered data that specifically supports an existing hypothesis supported by observation. Because I can do that for an 13.5+ billion year old universe. Specifically, I can show you pictures taken from a scientific study intended to see how far back into the past we can see that demonstrates galaxies as they appeared 13+ billion years ago. And at any time, that experiment can be repeated and produce consistent results.

So please show me similar: The consistent results of repeatable tests that produces EMPIRICAL evidence that the universe is a specific much younger age.
Empirical -- based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.

Can you tell me how they can observe the formation of the universe so that its age may be EMPIRICALLY verified?
 

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Empirical -- based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.

Can you tell me how they can observe the formation of the universe so that its age may be EMPIRICALLY verified?
Let's say your right. Let's say the universe isn't as old as science says it is. How old do you think it is?
 

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Retrofitted Sheeple
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Empirical -- based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.

Can you tell me how they can observe the formation of the universe so that its age may be EMPIRICALLY verified?
With telescopes. They can observe the early universe with various types of telescopes. The further out you look into the universe, the further back you look. So if you know how far away the objects you observe are, you know when the observed light/energy left the object. Since we can observe objects 13+ billion light years away, we know they left those objects 13+ billion years ago.
 

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With telescopes. They can observe the early universe with various types of telescopes. The further out you look into the universe, the further back you look. So if you know how far away the objects you observe are, you know when the observed light/energy left the object. Since we can observe objects 13+ billion light years away, we know they left those objects 13+ billion years ago.

Okay. Let me see if I understand this, and please be patient with me. They can't really see back in time, right? I mean, time doesn't actually roll back as they view things through the telescope. Right? They don't actually have a time machine. And, if that is true, might it be more accurate to say that they BELIEVE that what they are looking at is a glimpse of what things looked like at some point back in time? And also that they believe this based on certain assumptions? And since there are assumptions and since they really are not able to ACTUALLY roll back time and gain actual first hand experience of what it was, are their CONCLUSIONS about the specific past really empirical or theoretical?
 
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