[jmf552]

It's not a strawman, and it's been proven to work:

Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

The long read: Since it decriminalised all drugs in 2001, Portugal has seen dramatic drops in overdoses, HIV infection and drug-related crime

www.theguardian.com

Infographic: Then & Now Portugal's Drug Decriminalization

This chart shows key developments since Portugal decriminalized drugs in 2001.

www.statista.com

I don't have a use for junkies either, and Portugal is getting rid of junkies more effectively and efficiently than any other place I know of. The rehab facilities can double as work camps, that way the junkies learn marketable skills to support themselves after they aren't junkies any more, and it would save even more money. You can call it socialist all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it reduces the number of junkies, and does so cheaper than the way we're dealing with the problem now.

Other countries can "show" they got rid of gun violence by eliminating guns. But do we want that? We aren't Portugal. We believe drug use is a crime and we have a right to make that choice. You may think it is the wrong choice and I respect that. I just don't agree.

Why not decriminalize everything? They there would be no more crime. It's not so far fetched. A lot of jurisdictions won't prosecute if you get robbed, or even assaulted if it does not require a trip to the hospital. Heck, if everything is legal, we can all do what we want, including kill each other, but we have a zero crime rate.

 

[evilwhitey]

Other countries can "show" they got rid of gun violence by eliminating guns. But do we want that? We aren't Portugal. We believe drug use is a crime and we have a right to make that choice. You may think it is the wrong choice and I respect that. I just don't agree.

Why not decriminalize everything? They there would be no more crime. It's not so far fetched. A lot of jurisdictions won't prosecute if you get robbed, or even assaulted if it does not require a trip to the hospital. Heck, if everything is legal, we can all do what we want, including kill each other, but we have a zero crime rate.

Speak for yourself. Prohibition has never worked, the war on drugs has been a dismal failure by every metric, and I can't wait to see the nation move away from the flawed ideology that openly embraces a substance like alcohol while demonizing something as harmless and in many cases beneficial as marijuana. I don't drink or do drugs, but want neither to be outlawed. Prohibition isn't preventing anyone from getting ahold of drugs, but it sure is costing us a ton of money and curtailing our freedoms and has created a violent police state that is the opposite of what the founders would have supported. I don't support the of prosecution of "victimless crimes".

 

[AlphaSierraCharlie]

Other countries can "show" they got rid of gun violence by eliminating guns. But do we want that? We aren't Portugal. We believe drug use is a crime and we have a right to make that choice. You may think it is the wrong choice and I respect that. I just don't agree.

Why not decriminalize everything? They there would be no more crime. It's not so far fetched. A lot of jurisdictions won't prosecute if you get robbed, or even assaulted if it does not require a trip to the hospital. Heck, if everything is legal, we can all do what we want, including kill each other, but we have a zero crime rate.

Gun control has more in common with drug prohibition, in that neither works. If you outlaw guns, crime goes up. If you outlaw drugs, crime goes up.

Portugal believed drug use was a crime too, until they decided treating it like a crime wasn't working and tried something else.

I also believe drug use is a crime, but I understand that treating it like a crime isn't working. So I want to try something else.

Portugal didn't turn turn into dope-Gomorrah after legalizing drugs because the only people that wanted to use drugs were already using them, despite harsh criminal penalties. There weren't droves of productive, law abiding people who decided "ok, guess I'll try cocaine and heroin now" whenthey were decriminalized.

What it DID do is free up resources that had been tied up in enforcement, interdiction, incarceration, and prosecution to actually address the problem of drug use instead of addressing the symptoms of drug use. An analogy would be abandoning efforts at gun control by reducing the conditions that motivate people to commit violence. And the resources that were freed up from enforcement were in excess of what was needed for rehab. That means it costed the taxpayer less.

So are you a big government socialist who wants a massive, cumbersome, and ineffective police state (like we currently have) or are you a small-government, pro-liberty, fiscal conservative who wants a public policy problem addressed in an effective, cheap, and unobtrusive way? Personally, I'm going for the decriminalization/rehab option because it's been proven to reduce the number of junkies better AND cost less than what we're doing. But I'm not a big government loving, freedom hating socialist.

 

[Kymudder08]

Both are a joke, the government is throwing money around like it’s nothing and most of the time don’t even know where it’s going.

my gf and I have qualified for all 3 stimulus checks. She claimed our daughter in 2019, so got the stimulus for her too each time. I claimed her on 2020 taxes just recently filed. Even though she had already gotten the most recent one for her, bc I filed my 2020 taxes AFTER we had gotten the 3rd stimulus I also got the 3rd one for my daughter. Such a cluster F right now

 

[jmf552]

Gun control has more in common with drug prohibition, in that neither works. If you outlaw guns, crime goes up. If you outlaw drugs, crime goes up.

Portugal believed drug use was a crime too, until they decided treating it like a crime wasn't working and tried something else.

I also believe drug use is a crime, but I understand that treating it like a crime isn't working. So I want to try something else.

Portugal didn't turn turn into dope-Gomorrah after legalizing drugs because the only people that wanted to use drugs were already using them, despite harsh criminal penalties. There weren't droves of productive, law abiding people who decided "ok, guess I'll try cocaine and heroin now" whenthey were decriminalized.

What it DID do is free up resources that had been tied up in enforcement, interdiction, incarceration, and prosecution to actually address the problem of drug use instead of addressing the symptoms of drug use. An analogy would be abandoning efforts at gun control by reducing the conditions that motivate people to commit violence. And the resources that were freed up from enforcement were in excess of what was needed for rehab. That means it costed the taxpayer less.

So are you a big government socialist who wants a massive, cumbersome, and ineffective police state (like we currently have) or are you a small-government, pro-liberty, fiscal conservative who wants a public policy problem addressed in an effective, cheap, and unobtrusive way? Personally, I'm going for the decriminalization/rehab option because it's been proven to reduce the number of junkies better AND cost less than what we're doing. But I'm not a big government loving, freedom hating socialist.

You can move to Portugal, you know. I've been there. It's nice.

 

[AlphaSierraCharlie]

You can move to Portugal, you know. I've been there. It's nice.

I prefer to make things better here, by abandoning our expensive and failed socialist approach to drug policy in favor of a cheaper and successful small-government approach to drug policy.

Why do you support the current expensive and failed socialist approach to drug policy, when there's a cheaper and successful small-government approach to drug policy? Do you support socialism?

 

[Lee303]

You can move to Portugal, you know. I've been there. It's nice.

Higher Taxes, Fewer Constitutional Rights, Language Barrier, Cost of Living, Employment Opportunities, controlled by the EUSSR are some of the highlights why not to.

Portugal is one of the 'better' EU countries (As someone who has lived across the EU) however, just because they have some good ideas on a specific problem doesn't make it great overall.

Difference between visiting a place and working there.

I can't speak for AlphaSierraCharlie, as I wasn't fortunate enough to be born in the last, best hope for individual freedoms, as imperfect as it may be in the USA, it's still the dream for many of us.

If I were that fortunate, I'd want to help preserve / improve it, rather than flee.

 

[soocom1]

This discussion went so far off the rails its amazing.

But what I can tell you is that for those not in the US I can tell you that reading of the last days of the Western Roman Empire should tell you where we are at.

last year I had wondered what the equivalent of the Sack of Rome by Clovis would be.
The southern border fiasco is it.

So all this nonsense of UBI v. Stimulus is total academic blather. VERY soon the US will start to fracture legally.

And it kills me to see it happen.

 

[Lee303]

This discussion went so far off the rails its amazing.

But what I can tell you is that for those not in the US I can tell you that reading of the last days of the Western Roman Empire should tell you where we are at.

last year I had wondered what the equivalent of the Sack of Rome by Clovis would be.
The southern border fiasco is it.

So all this nonsense of UBI v. Stimulus is total academic blather. VERY soon the US will start to fracture legally.

And it kills me to see it happen.

As bad as it appears to be, I'd still rather be there than here.

 

[BadgeBunny]

This discussion went so far off the rails its amazing.

But what I can tell you is that for those not in the US I can tell you that reading of the last days of the Western Roman Empire should tell you where we are at.

last year I had wondered what the equivalent of the Sack of Rome by Clovis would be.
The southern border fiasco is it.

So all this nonsense of UBI v. Stimulus is total academic blather. VERY soon the US will start to fracture legally.

And it kills me to see it happen.

God knows I pray you are wrong -- but my heart fears you are right.

 

[KoolAde2]

As the way it is structured here in America will never work the way Portugal designed it. First off it is all about the Money. There is too much money in the enforcement and the treatment here in America.
Do a Google search on any major city and look at the number of Drug Rehabs that are listed. Most are draining the pot from the Public and Private sector with the false lie of Curing the Drug Addict. Look t the recidivism at all these so called with the Magic Cure and see what the real number is.

Those in here that hate the addict and the ones that are under the belief the Government is the answer really have no clue. Show me one thing the Government has done for the Public ie Health, So called Great Society that has change anything but made it worse.

I just know that any treatment will bit work unless the User is truly committed to quitting and that takes a deep soul search to admit that their life is truly out of control. No law will stop them from using and using any means to achieve their drug of choice. Through crime or whatever means is necessary. An addict first thought from the minute they wake till they pass out is where am I going to get my next fix. Their ever waking moment is consumed with finding the next fix. This is what has to be corrected.

 

[petergunn]

Is .gov money routinely loaded on a debit card for the masses to spend UBI or stimulus?

Or is it just EBT 2.0


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[evilwhitey]

I prefer to make things better here, by abandoning our expensive and failed socialist approach to drug policy in favor of a cheaper and successful small-government approach to drug policy.

Why do you support the current expensive and failed socialist approach to drug policy, when there's a cheaper and successful small-government approach to drug policy? Do you support socialism?

Right wingers absolutely support big, inefficient, inept, ineffective government just like the left and they love out of control, hideously wasteful police and military spending, control, and trampling of our rights and freedoms. The way they worship the military industrial complex and militarized police is extremely sad. They aren't interested in saving money, in being efficient, in actually accomplishing goals, it's just team sports and bowing down to their beloved golden calves. Binary, closed minded thinking is a mental disease that's unfortunately infected most of this nation regardless of political affiliation.

 

[soocom1]

Right wingers absolutely support big, inefficient, inept, ineffective government just like the left and they love out of control, hideously wasteful police and military spending, control, and trampling of our rights and freedoms. The way they worship the military industrial complex and militarized police is extremely sad. They aren't interested in saving money, in being efficient, in actually accomplishing goals, it's just team sports and bowing down to their beloved golden calves. Binary, closed minded thinking is a mental disease that's unfortunately infected most of this nation regardless of political affiliation.

Nice broad brushing there.

FYI I am IN government, and I can attest that the folks (about 85%) are NOT war mongering, socialest, egotistical power mongers.

Most are sincere and are out to do the job RIGHT! WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF LAW!

We have top follow the law also and the vast majority of those who never worked in government speak out of opinion and superfolies. All based on incomplete and faulty ideas pushed by the talking heads of both sides.
it makes me sick that a lot of supposedly 'smart' folks spew out so much crap about the things they have little understanding of.

It's not hard to learn either.

This argument of "socialist' services is pure unadulterated BULL CARP!

 

[evilwhitey]

Nice broad brushing there.

FYI I am IN government, and I can attest that the folks (about 85%) are NOT war mongering, socialest, egotistical power mongers.

Most are sincere and are out to do the job RIGHT! WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF LAW!

We have top follow the law also and the vast majority of those who never worked in government speak out of opinion and superfolies. All based on incomplete and faulty ideas pushed by the talking heads of both sides.
it makes me sick that a lot of supposedly 'smart' folks spew out so much crap about the things they have little understanding of.

It's not hard to learn either.

This argument of "socialist' services is pure unadulterated BULL CARP!

"The law" is not synonymous with right, moral, correct, efficient, and effective. The law has historically been wrong as much as it has been right.

I never said there aren't good people in the military or police or other government entities, there are, but it's an irrelevant discussion. We're talking about using taxpayer and borrowed funds efficiently and effectively to achieve desired results. More often than not, government is a black hole for funds, delivering little in the way of tangible benefits to taxpayers. Plenty of us "supposedly smart folks" have worked in government and speak from place of experience. The war on drugs and corresponding government spending, trampling of freedom resulting waste of life, and extremely negative social and economic impact, cannot be defended from any logical perspective. By every metric it has been an utter failure creating far more problems than doing nothing at all.

Until you look into what Portugal has done, and look at the science behind it (specifically creating and fostering human connection and purpose), you don't have any room to speak. Until people start holding government accountable for wasteful spending and desecration of our freedom with zero tangible trade off, this nation will keep circling the drain down down down.

 

[AlphaSierraCharlie]

As the way it is structured here in America will never work the way Portugal designed it. First off it is all about the Money. There is too much money in the enforcement and the treatment here in America.
Do a Google search on any major city and look at the number of Drug Rehabs that are listed. Most are draining the pot from the Public and Private sector with the false lie of Curing the Drug Addict. Look t the recidivism at all these so called with the Magic Cure and see what the real number is.

Those in here that hate the addict and the ones that are under the belief the Government is the answer really have no clue. Show me one thing the Government has done for the Public ie Health, So called Great Society that has change anything but made it worse.

I just know that any treatment will bit work unless the User is truly committed to quitting and that takes a deep soul search to admit that their life is truly out of control. No law will stop them from using and using any means to achieve their drug of choice. Through crime or whatever means is necessary. An addict first thought from the minute they wake till they pass out is where am I going to get my next fix. Their ever waking moment is consumed with finding the next fix. This is what has to be corrected.

I agree, and Portugal figured out how to do that.

You're spot on about why it won't be implemented here though. Big government needs drug money to function, either as fines or seizures of cash and property. And the conservatives aren't going to support the Portuguese model because they'd have more police than they need or could fund, but reducing the police force to what would be required would "look weak on crime". Plus there's the small and simple minded "not spending a fortune of taxpayer money to put junkies in a revolving-door penal system (that releases other, more violent criminals) with an enforcement model that crushes the civil liberties of non-junkies is socialism" mindset that some conservatives can't let go of. The liberals won't support it because they need a certain amount of poverty and suffering to leverage into increasing their socialist grip on power, and "drugs and poverty are the result of conservative policies that target [insert victim identity group]".

And if we can get back on topic, UBI is a transfer of wealth from the taxpayers to corporations that's laundered through the poor and the stimulus checks/packages are a transfer of wealth from the taxpayers to corporations that's disguised as the government's (weak and pitiful) solution to a problem that the government willfully and intentionally created. Therefore UBI and the stimulus are corporate oligarchism, dressed up as socialism.

 

[soocom1]

"The law" is not synonymous with right, moral, correct, efficient, and effective. The law has historically been wrong as much as it has been right.

I never said there aren't good people in the military or police or other government entities, there are, but it's an irrelevant discussion. We're talking about using taxpayer and borrowed funds efficiently and effectively to achieve desired results. More often than not, government is a black hole for funds, delivering little in the way of tangible benefits to taxpayers. Plenty of us "supposedly smart folks" have worked in government and speak from place of experience. The war on drugs and corresponding government spending, trampling of freedom resulting waste of life, and extremely negative social and economic impact, cannot be defended from any logical perspective. By every metric it has been an utter failure creating far more problems than doing nothing at all.

Until you look into what Portugal has done, and look at the science behind it (specifically creating and fostering human connection and purpose), you don't have any room to speak. Until people start holding government accountable for wasteful spending and desecration of our freedom with zero tangible trade off, this nation will keep circling the drain down down down.

The purpose of government is not to generate profit.
Its administration.

Rail roads and other forms of services are not designed nor should they be subject to the rules of capital or private industry economics.
It is application of administration and law.
Public service etc.
There is no 'socialism" aspect to any of it. Its a false argument.

As for creating a communal (not communist) process involves the concept of public good, ergo public services. This includes EMS, forms of transportation etc.
It is not based in socialism or communism. the application of the war on drugs was based on the ideal (at least projected to the public) of trying to stop a scourge of despotism occurring within our inner cities.
Yes I know the history and all the variables quite well.

I know full well the concepts involved and the aspects that resulted from. its an old tired argument on both sides. The core of the original OP was to try and classify people into one of two camps:
1: UBI
2: Stimulus.

As though there was some level of contradictory or opposing prose.
The argument was and is academic and based in sophistry period!

The secondary goal of the argument was to put people on the two sides against each other.
It is a classic form of trolling that was wholly pushed by the Obama administration.
I attest this because similar discussions occurred during that time frame and the 'war room" in the WH at that time was pushing that claptrap toward garnishing public opinion and baselining the public on the issues at hand. This is classic (though highly refined) soviet style- Alinsky style classification and obfuscation of the opposition.

I witnessed a much less sophisticated and somewhat clunky process with Clinton's gang in the 1990's BEFORE the internet trying to sway public opinion on Wolf Reintroduction, gun control and the constant and angry harping against the NRA. it was that which gave me the first lessons and insite to these tactics.

This is simply the latest iteration of the old game.

 

[PalmettoTree]

One of the strange things is that the local fire department is the very essence of a socialist definition, yet if you asked a hundred people. not many would be in favor a getting rid of the
local fire department because they were a bunch of socialist.
Thanks, SamChevel

NO fire departments are like insurance aka loss sharing. Communities agree to share some lost value for fire department protection. If communities did not see the value in them fire insurance companies would start them to minimize losses. Fire Departments are capitalism at work. Not everything in capitalism is for profit. Fire departments to this point protect capital.

 

[Sundsvall]

Then reason the stock market is continuing to go up is because those on subsistence standards of living are not saving. It took me less than 3 months for the market to earn back this years mandatory distribution amount.

I took out extra last year at year's end because I expect Biden to increase my taxes. When the tax increases pass I will take out extra again. Congress cannot pass an ex post facto law so I will have a short amount of time to move.

When I say I, I mean anyone paying attention.

The reason the stock market is 76% up for 2020 is because the FED is propping it up. Therefore, the FED is stealing money from everyone in the world who holds dollars and giving it to the 10% of the population that holds Stocks and Bonds. How else do you get P/E ratios of 2700 or 350 when the average P/E is around 20? If they steal from the purchasing power of the currency at large to enrich the 10%, then its fair to give the average person UBI. Tesla and Boeing stock shouldn't be anywhere near what it is.

 

[Bronxzoo]

Since it looks highly likely that a fourth stimulis check is in the offering, I beleive that ubi would be more effective than a stimulis
check that arrives on a time line that cannot be counted on. But that is just my opnion. My vote is ubi instead of stimulis checks.
By the way I do not qualify for the stimulis checks, but maybe the ubi ?

Thanks, SamChevel

It’s all junk , there shouldn’t be UBI or stimulus . Send everyone back to work and let’s move on. They just want these people to depend on them it’s pathetic. Wake up everyone , they tell you you can’t go to work and just send you checks, they got you right where they want you.