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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We rent a house my parents own.
We have been mulling over purchasing it for some time. We both want to however I have felt uneasy about it for obvious reasons...the economy...doh!

Not sure the details of the purchase are really the issue for me, but the question being:
If SHTF or EOTWAWKI happens, am I in a better position owning (and being more in debt) or renting?

My parents are very flexible with the sale options etc.

If SHTF or EOTWAWKI they would help us out and vis-a-versa.

If SHTF or EOTWAWKI happens we may move in together if necessary and possible(ugh!)
but I think we would be in the same boat no matter what.

One or both of us is not going to be able to afford the mortgage payments if bread is $100 a loaf (of course I am prepping for that as much as possible).

So, does it really matter?

Yes we would be taking on more debt, which is not a wise prepper move...

But the debt is already my parents' which means it will affect me eventually anyway for one.

Either way is the same to me.

And we may be able to make arrangements to pay off our car through the load deal which I see as a wise prepper move.

(trying to aggresively get rid of debt w/two people who don't see eye to eye on how that should happen is a bear!)

We could also pay of some other debts which at least would consolidate the payments...less debtors to finagle with.

Hope you guys can give me some insight here. I am at a loss for the best decision and the Lord doesn't seem to be making it clear. I have to say my heart is not in the decision to buy, but my mind says it will be fine.

Thank you all in advance for your advice!!

also...take the $7500 'tax credit' interest free LOAN from the govt. sounds really good but i don't think i want to owe them a darn thing thoughts on that too would be appreciated...
 

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I am at a loss for the best decision and the Lord doesn't seem to be making it clear
if you are saying this..................

I have to say my heart is not in the decision to buy
then I would say your God is talking to you.

you just answered your own question.

I never understood when families bought and sold things to each other. What is mine belongs to my whole family...father, sister and mother. What is theirs is mine. I would help pay off the house if my parents "owned" it and still owed money, but it sounds like you are already doing that by paying rent.€
 

· Bail me out
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if you are saying this..................



then I would say your God is talking to you.

you just answered your own question.



I never understood when families bought and sold things to each other. What is mine belongs to my whole family...father, sister and mother. What is theirs is mine. I would help pay off the house if my parents "owned" it and still owed money, but it sounds like you are already doing that by paying rent.€
I agree with you on that.
 

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cant help you much on buying the house we are renting to for now but are looking to buy a mobile home soon hopefully paying cash but as far as that free loan from big brother RUN AWAY DONT DO IT
we have weekly radio show here with the to realestate broker in our area and last wek he was discussing this very thing and while i cant go into it here his adivice was dont do it
 

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Govt. entaglements always seem to have hidden problems for the borrower avoid that ...... i agree with Old and C Buy the house if it within your budget. the first 10 years is almost like rent anyway but if things go bad you won't be out much plus it might do good for your folks maybe they need to have it sold jsut for peace of mind.
I wouldn't do it though if it caused a need to neglect my other preps because in the short run the basic food water and shelter you will need no matter what happens.
If things get really bad and you have too leave your home you'll need the others.
The other question is is it really the kind of thing you want good deal or not if you don't like it then don't do it................
 

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Why not do a rent to own from your parents? Agree on a price and x $ of rent per month go to the purchase price. Deed goes to you when you reach an agreed upon percent of the total.... preferably when it is under$100k, so it could be considered a gift from your parents in the eyes of the irs...
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thank you all for your advice.
My parents are only wanting to sell it to us for what they owe.

And yes, I think the question is answered in the lack of an answer from the Lord, although sometimes His silence seems to mean either 1. do nothing, no changes at this time or 2. It is up to me.
Since He doesn't dictate everything in life but is certainly guiding me and and I try to hear Him and obey at all times, but sometimes it seems He really wants us to make the decision. Maybe to test my wisdom and discernment...

anyway back to the house, they initially bought it as an investment/retirement supplement and it sits on property they subdivided and built a new house on.
they have their own mortgage for that and they already give us quite a discount on rent (we don't even cover their payment for it) they don't care if we rent it forever, but i would like to have a say in what happens to it more, and the sense of ownership would maybe help my husband be more proactive in maintenance updating, etc...

anyway, long story longer....I may ask my spiritual mothers and fathers to get some more insight, there is wisdom in the council of many. i trust that most of you have a similar attitude toward the govt and $ and things so thank you all so much for your input.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Why not do a rent to own from your parents? Agree on a price and x $ of rent per month go to the purchase price. Deed goes to you when you reach an agreed upon percent of the total.... preferably when it is under$100k, so it could be considered a gift from your parents in the eyes of the irs...
they don't technically own it yet since they are still paying for it so i am not sure this would work, but good idea...
 

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rent to own

Here is how rent to own works. Say the rent is $500 per month in the area to rent a similiar home. You pay say $700 per month. The additional $200 per month go towards your down payment.

Example:

12 months x $200= $2400 x 2 years= $4800

You now have $4800 coming back from your parents as a down payment on the home.

You go to the bank and get financed on the home and buy from parents.

You can agree on the price, although I think homes are going down in value at the moment.

At the end of the specified term it is the renters option if they would like to buy or not, if yes, you buy and get the down stroke, if no, you do not get any money back.

You can write this out yourself and both sign.

Hope this clarifies the rent to own option . PS this is just one scenario not meant as advice, to be taken or not.
 

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This is an article I copied and pasted...



Renting Makes More Financial Sense Than Homeownership
I have something un-American to confess: I rent an apartment, despite having enough money to buy a house. I plan to keep renting for as long as I can. I'm not just holding out for better prices. Renting will make me richer.
I normally write about stocks for SmartMoney.com, but the boss asked me to explain to readers my reason for renting. Here goes: Businesses are great investments while houses are poor ones, so I'd rather rent the latter and own the former.
Stocks vs. Houses: Returns
Shares of businesses return 7% a year over long time periods. I'm subtracting for inflation, gradual price increases for everything from a can of beer to an ear exam. (After-inflation or "real" returns are the only ones that matter. The point of increasing wealth is to increase buying power, not numbers on an account statement.) Shares have been remarkably consistent over the past two centuries in their 7% real returns. In Jeremy Siegel's book, "Stocks for the Long Term," he finds that real returns averaged 7.0% over nearly seven decades ending 1870, then 6.6% through 1925 and then 6.9% through 2004.
The average real return for houses over long time periods might surprise you. It's zero.
Shares return 7% a year after inflation because that's how fast companies tend to increase their profits. Houses have their own version of profits: rents. Tenant-occupied houses generate actual rents while owner-occupied houses generate ones that are implied but no less real: the rents their owners don't have to pay each year. House prices and rents have been closely linked throughout history, with both increasing at the rate of inflation, or about 3% a year since 1900. A house, after all, is an ordinary good. It can't think up ways to drive profits like a company's managers can. Absent artificial boosts to demand, house prices will increase at the rate of inflation over long time periods for a real return of zero.
Robert Shiller, a Yale economist and author of "Irrational Exuberance," which predicted the stock price collapse in 2000, has recently turned his eye to house prices. Between 1890 and 2004 he finds that real house returns would've been zero if not for two brief periods: one immediately following World War II and another since about 2000. (More on them in a moment.) Even if we include these periods houses returned just 0.4% a year, he says.
The average pundit, planner, lender or broker making the case for ownership doesn't look at returns since 1890. Sometimes they reduce the matter to maxims about "building equity" and "paying yourself" instead of "throwing money down the drain." If they do look at returns they focus on recent ones. Those tell a different story.
Between World War II and 2000 house prices beat inflation by about two percentage points a year. (Stocks during that time beat inflation by their usual seven percentage points a year.) Since 2000 houses have outpaced inflation by six percentage points a year. (Stocks have merely matched inflation.)
Stocks vs. Houses: Valuations
But while stock returns have come from increased earnings, house returns have come from ballooning valuations, not increased rents. The ratio of share prices to company earnings (the price/earnings ratio) has remained relatively steady. It's about 16 today, close to both its 1940 value of 17 and to its 130-year average of about 15. Not so, the ratio of house prices to rents. In 1940 the median single-family house price was $2,938, according to the U.S. Census, while the median rent was $27 a month, including utilities. That means the ratio of prices to annual rents was 9. By 2000 the ratio had swelled to 17. In 2005 it hit 20. We can adjust for the size of dwellings, but it doesn't make much difference. The ratio of single-family house prices to three-bedroom apartments is 19. In SmartMoney.com's home town of Manhattan, where more detailed data is available, the ratio of condo prices per square foot to apartment rents per square foot is 22.
Two main events have caused house valuations to inflate since World War II. First, the government subsidized housing by relaxing borrowing standards. Prior to the creation of the Federal Housing Authority in 1934 house buyers who borrowed typically put up 40% of the purchase price in cash for a five- to 15-year loan. By insuring mortgages, the FHA permitted terms of up to 20 years and down payments of just 20%. It later expanded the repayment periods to 30 years and reduced down payments to 5%. Today down payments for FHA loans are as low as 3%. Aggressive lenders offer loans with no down payments or even negative ones so that house buyers can borrow the full purchase price plus closing costs. Some require little documentation of income, assets or ability to pay.
That means more Americans can win loans for homes, and they can win them for far more expensive (larger) homes than their incomes previously allowed. Two-thirds of American households own homes today, up from 44% in 1940, even though the percentage of Americans living alone has tripled during that time. The ratio of house values to incomes has risen 260% in just under four decades.
A second event helped boost house demand in recent years. Share prices plunged in 2000. The Federal Reserve, fearing that the decline in stock wealth would cause consumers to stop spending, reduced the federal-funds rate, the core interest rate that determines the cost of everything from credit cards to mortgages, to 1% by the summer of 2003 from 6.5% at the start of 2001. Since most of the cost of financing a house over 30 years is interest, monthly house payments shrank and demand for houses soared. In some markets a string of big yearly increases in house prices led to panic buying.
Stocks vs. Houses: Conclusion
For house returns over the next 20 years to match those over the past 20, the government and private lenders would have to "up the ante" by relaxing borrowing standards further. Given the recent attention paid to swelling foreclosures, that seems unlikely. I suspect real returns will turn negative over most of the next two decades, but that house prices won't necessarily dip. Since 1963 they've done so in only two years, vs. 18 for stocks. That's because homeowners mostly just stick it out rather than sell during soft markets. But if house prices remain flat, they produce negative real returns due to the creep of inflation. According to calculations made by The Economist in the summer of 2005, house prices would have to stay flat for 12 years with annual inflation at 2.5% for the ratio of prices to rents to fall from its 2005 perch to merely its 1975 to 2000 average.
So to sum up why I rent: Shares right now cost 16 times earnings and over long time periods return 7% a year after inflation. Houses right now cost 19 times their "earnings" and over long time periods return zero after inflation. And they look likely to return less than that for a while.
On the following page I've tried to anticipate and address questions and objections.


Questions/Objections
"You can't live in your stocks" or "Renters throw money down the drain."
Rent is the cost of owning shares with money you would otherwise spend on a house. Houses have ownership costs, too: taxes, insurance and maintenance. Rent costs about 5% of house prices each year if we apply the price/rent ratio of 19. House incidentals often cost around 2%. If you have $300,000 and a choice between spending it on a house or shares, you'll pay $6,000 a year in incidentals if you buy the house or about $15,000 a year ($1,250 a month) in rent if you buy the shares. But the shares will return $21,000 a year after inflation while the house will return zero. (My numbers work out even better than these. I pay a smidgen less than $1,250 a month for rent, while house prices in my neighborhood are far higher than $300,000.)
Note that houses and shares have transaction costs, too. Home buyers pay around 1% in closing costs when they buy and 6% in broker commissions when they sell. Share buyers pay $10 trading commissions, which are negligible for buy-and-hold investors.
"House buyers get tax breaks."
So do share buyers, but both are a bad deal. The interest on loans for houses (mortgages) and shares (margin balances) is tax-deductible. But the rates are almost always too high. A big house loan presently costs 6.1% interest while a big stock loan costs about 9%. For the returns, we can forget about inflation because it helps debtors while hurting investors, making it a wash for those who borrow to invest. Still, nominal returns of 3% for houses and 10% for stocks aren't high enough to justify those rates. The tax breaks aren't really breaks at all. Moreover, a majority of homeowners don't claim them. Their incomes are low enough to make the standard deduction a better deal.
"What about the pride of home ownership?"
It's not for me. I define ownership as no longer having to pay for something and being able to do as I please with it. I own my coffee maker. House owners must pay taxes each year even when their mortgage payments are done. In certain markets they can't even make changes to the houses they've paid for without seeking the approval of others. Personally, I feel the pride of ownership for shares of businesses, and I'm proud to occupy a nice place while leaving the burden of poor returns and maintenance to someone else.
"You seem to knock government housing subsidies, but they've helped many Americans afford homes."
My inner socialist agrees. My other inner socialist worries that the government has effectively raised prices to the point where the middle class can't afford houses, or buries itself in debt to own them. My inner capitalist is too busy watching shares to care about house prices. My inner conspiracy theorist notes that while politicians tout the social benefits of homeownership none mentions its tax benefits to the government. I pay no taxes on the overall value of my stock portfolio, just on my cashed-in gains and collected dividends. But Americans pay taxes on the full $11 trillion worth of housing they own plus the $10 trillion worth of it they're still paying off.
"Houses are bigger than apartments."
True, and both can be rented. A third of renters live in single-family houses. I prefer an apartment for now. I like not having to fill it with stuff. I like using a fifth of the energy of the average American. I like being 20 minutes from work and (this is unique to New Yorkers) not having owned a car in 10 years. I like not stressing over whether to get the marble countertops or the imported tiles or the 52-inch flat screen. I'm not especially frugal; I spend a teacher's salary each year on restaurants and travel. But I guess I'm too busy or lazy right now to bother with a big house and its innards.
"Are you saying I should sell my big house and rent an apartment instead?"
No, unless you have more space than you need and moving wouldn't be disruptive to your family, and you want to cash in on recent housing gains, make more money over the next couple of decades, use less energy while simplifying your life, and you don't mind seeming odd to friends. In which case, yes. But really, I'm not trying to win anyone over. Strong demand for houses keeps my rent cheap.
"Renting is for poor people."
True. But it's for rich people, too. The average renter makes about $34,000 a year, but while the percentage of renters declines after incomes exceed $20,000 and rents exceed $600 a month, it jumps again once incomes top $150,000 and rents top $1,200 a month. In other words, poor people rent modest apartments for lack of choice. Middle-income people buy houses. High-income people, presumably with a dose of financial savvy, often rent nice apartments instead of buying.
"You say houses return zero. But I've made a fortune on my house in recent years."
I'm referring to inflation-adjusted returns over long time periods, absent external boosts to demand. You're referring to gross returns over a short time period that combined lax borrowing standards and ultra-low interest rates. Over the next 20 years I believe houses will return zero or slightly less after inflation and that stocks will return 7%.
"So you're never going to buy a house? What about raising a family?"
I might buy one eventually, but the longer I can put it off the more I'll get out of the shares I'll have to sell to afford it. I'm 34 now with a fiancée and a fish. I'm going to try to rent for at least 10 more years. If I have kids I'll probably move into a big apartment or a house once they reach running-around age. I'll rent, most likely.
 

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(trying to aggresively get rid of debt w/two people who don't see eye to eye on how that should happen is a bear!)
900 pound gorilla in the closet.

Get out of bad debt. When you buy your first home you tend to dump good money after bad upgrades. Nesting instincts wring you out, financially and emotionally.

Play all the cards you have been dealt. Work with parents on a deal.

Don't forget you need to deal with the GO-rilla. Get a money book or two written buy women. Lay them out here and there. Sow some good seeds. If that does bear good fruit, God Bless!
 

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Thank you all for your advice.
My parents are only wanting to sell it to us for what they owe.
ummmmm, if they owe less than or equal to what it's worth, BUY IT. seriously. there is nothing like owning your own home. there are only two reasons to rent: you'll be there short term or you expect property values to tank permanently. if you have any expectation of living where you live for any appreciable length of time you should buy.
 

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If you have significant other debt I would consider that a priority. The debt with the highest interest rate should be paid down first.

As you say you are stuck in. You have to pay for the property. Sound financial decisions are generally a numbers game. If you can make a profit that outweighs the risks then go for it.

Here are some more things to consider that may help you get a better picture. This is based on what I am reading now.

What will it cost you (both you and your parents) to do the deal? Will there be thousands of dollars in lawyer fees? Will your parents get dinged with capital gain tax or some such?

What are the ongoing costs? Are your parents paying tax on the 'rent' you pay? That would seem like money wasted that you could pay directly on the mortgage. How will it effect your land tax? Rental property is often taxed differently than personal property. What interest rate are they paying? The fed is rumored to drop the prime rate to 0% so it will certainly be very low. Refinancing may pay for itself if you can substantially reduce your rate. (Just be careful you do not trap yourself as it will probably be higher again when you have to renegotiate.) You would have to do the math on that one.

Who has better credit? Who is more likely to be able to keep the house if payments become hard or impossible to make? Can you even get a mortgage? Remember that mortgage providers do not like lookey-lous. Read up on how best to shop for a mortgage to avoid the credit history problems. Most banks post their rates on their websites but generally (IIRC) will charge between two and four points over prime depending on your credit and things like location, type, size, curb appeal. You can get a good idea of what it will cost you; you just can not be sure that the bank will take a liking to you and approve the loan.

If the principle owed is significantly lower than the value of the house you can look at refinancing for improvements. The house is likely to go down in value in this market so keep that in mind. How is the roof? How is the foundation? You do not want to have major issues hanging over your head post-SHTF; no one will buy a house with a leaky roof in a glut market and they are no fun to live in. Will your .gov give you money or tax credits for 'green' improvements that will give you hard assets. Ten thousand may be more debt but the loan will be at very low interest and will not add significantly to your monthly payments. If you have the capacity it may be worth it.

Many of the sheeple hit hard by the foreclosures got themselves into the mess. The signed up for/were duped into loans with skyrocketing interest rates. They lied about their debt and income to get them. They have significant other debt from buying toys and junk; much of which is in high interest credit cards. They refinanced their inflated McMansion and blew the money on a holiday to Vegas. Yes, the bankers also bear a great burden of guilt for selling them on this junk but you do not have to buy into it.

I am not an loan counselor. I am just trying to make some sense of this situation so I am putting these things out there for discussion. I welcome any rebuttals that I can learn from.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
If you have significant other debt I would consider that a priority. The debt with the highest interest rate should be paid down first.

As you say you are stuck in. You have to pay for the property. Sound financial decisions are generally a numbers game. If you can make a profit that outweighs the risks then go for it.

Here are some more things to consider that may help you get a better picture. This is based on what I am reading now.

What will it cost you (both you and your parents) to do the deal? Will there be thousands of dollars in lawyer fees? Will your parents get dinged with capital gain tax or some such?

What are the ongoing costs? Are your parents paying tax on the 'rent' you pay? That would seem like money wasted that you could pay directly on the mortgage. How will it effect your land tax? Rental property is often taxed differently than personal property. What interest rate are they paying? The fed is rumored to drop the prime rate to 0% so it will certainly be very low. Refinancing may pay for itself if you can substantially reduce your rate. (Just be careful you do not trap yourself as it will probably be higher again when you have to renegotiate.) You would have to do the math on that one.

Who has better credit? Who is more likely to be able to keep the house if payments become hard or impossible to make? Can you even get a mortgage? Remember that mortgage providers do not like lookey-lous. Read up on how best to shop for a mortgage to avoid the credit history problems. Most banks post their rates on their websites but generally (IIRC) will charge between two and four points over prime depending on your credit and things like location, type, size, curb appeal. You can get a good idea of what it will cost you; you just can not be sure that the bank will take a liking to you and approve the loan.

If the principle owed is significantly lower than the value of the house you can look at refinancing for improvements. The house is likely to go down in value in this market so keep that in mind. How is the roof? How is the foundation? You do not want to have major issues hanging over your head post-SHTF; no one will buy a house with a leaky roof in a glut market and they are no fun to live in. Will your .gov give you money or tax credits for 'green' improvements that will give you hard assets. Ten thousand may be more debt but the loan will be at very low interest and will not add significantly to your monthly payments. If you have the capacity it may be worth it.

Many of the sheeple hit hard by the foreclosures got themselves into the mess. The signed up for/were duped into loans with skyrocketing interest rates. They lied about their debt and income to get them. They have significant other debt from buying toys and junk; much of which is in high interest credit cards. They refinanced their inflated McMansion and blew the money on a holiday to Vegas. Yes, the bankers also bear a great burden of guilt for selling them on this junk but you do not have to buy into it.

I am not an loan counselor. I am just trying to make some sense of this situation so I am putting these things out there for discussion. I welcome any rebuttals that I can learn from.
Very useful questions you bring up. Thank you! I will be asking some of these questions. Thanks for taking the time.
 

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If your parent hold the mortgage, then it would probable be a good idea because I doubt that they will evict you if you lose your job. (Unless you have evil parents, then don't do it.)

But it sounds like you aren't really ready. You wouldn't be asking for advice if you had your mind made up to buy this house at this time. I'd try to put off the decision until you have a money cushion and have paid off some debts first. Your parents are getting rent anyway, so they shouldn't be in a hurry.
 
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