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Geronimo!
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay, I strongly encourage those with specific knowledge and well gleaned opinions (of the non-emotional kind) to add to this as we go.

First of all the definition of the acronym "MBR."

MBR = Main Battle Rifle or Modern Battle Rifle (It really depends upon who it is you are speaking with. Historians lean towards "modern" whereas purists lean towards "main.")

1. A rifle commonly accepted as one in which battles are, or have been, employed by major military organizations, or the armies of countries, around the world.
2. A rifle which is either magazine or clip fed and chambers one of the accepted past, current or future cartridges developed by either Allied, NATO or former WARSAW Pact countries who participated in one or both World Wars, or the liberation of Israel from the Palestinians.
3. To a lesser extent, a rifle which is not considered "carbine" (a barrel between 14" - 20") in length/nature. (This is most often debated when discussing the current M4 carbine between historians and purists. The debate is whether or not the M4 may be classified as a MBR given that it is technically not a rifle. The old rule of "carbines only fire handgun cartridges" does not apply in modern terms under any circumstances.)

For the purpose of instant clarification, let's agree to disagree on two common areas of disagreement.

1) "Assault Rifle" is an acceptable term in military circles and therefore must be accepted here as a modern offensive rifle or carbine of modern caliber commonly agreed to be between 5.45mm and 7.62mm in diameter. Assault Rifles, for the purpose of this short primer and in lieu of an ensuing debate, are always select fire in nature, (meaning there are a minimum of two fire modes, semi-auto, auto-3 rd burst, and full auto, (the later meaning that if you hold the trigger down it'll keep shooting until all rounds in the magazine are expended.), and as already mentioned, Assault Rifles are magazine fed. An Assault Rifle is not only a short carbine which fires a mission built cartridge, but it may also be classified as a light machinegun and herein is where we separate Assault Rifles from MBRs.
2) We will not be considering the M4 as a MBR for two distinct and undebatable reasons. The M4 is, undeniably, a carbine and the M4 is, undeniably an Assault Weapon which categorizes it in loose modern terms as an Assault Rifle. Under this definition, neither are we going to consider the AK47/74 or Galil/Golani as a MBRs and for the same undeniable reasons. So, forget about the AKs, Galils and M4s as MBRs ... please.

With all of that out of the way shall we narrow MBRs down to the following most common breeds/variations?

Mosin-Nagant
Dragunov SVD

M1 Garand
M14
AR-10

Mauser K98
H&K G3/91

CETME

FN-FAL

Lee Enfield No 4 (Including SMLEs, Mk Is and IIs)

IMI 308 GALATZ

Schmidt-Rubin K31 (full length)

Please feel free to add to the list so-long as it does not include anything that might fall into the definition of assault/carbine.

That's pretty much it for those who have been asking what the term "MBR" refers to and what rifles might fall under the category of "MBR."

As far as which one is better and why "MBR" has become a politically correct misnomer in today's society - that is debatable.

For the purpose of the debate I offer the following opinion.

We are forced to exclude "Assault Weapons" from the discussion because of the "black evil rifle" label the MSM has placed on the term and therefore we must limit our choices in doing so.

Purists will argue that anything smaller than 6mm cannot be considered a MBR.

Purists will argue that anything with an effective range shorter than 300 meters cannot be considered a MBR.

I tend to agree.

Assault Rifles/Weapons (purely defined a type or variation and not as purpose built in nature) have garnered a category all their own and should be debated within its categorial limits. Why we allow the politically correct anti-gun nuts to define our tools is beyond me but you will see people among us run from the word "assault" almost as fast as they do the "n" word in an effort to appease the anti-gun zealots out there.

So, MBR it is and those most commonly seen are the ones I listed above.

My personal preference is the M1a/M14 and its variations. I also believe the G3 is a fine fine MBR and the AR 10 is highly underrated.

On the other hand, while the FN-FAL is the most widely used MBR in the world, including NATO - it also has its problems, particularly in sandy environments as noted repeatedly by Israeli forces in the fifties and sixties. Still yet, it is a fine fine MBR.

The only real debatable question, and one that may never be answered is, the SKS? It is technically classified as a carbine yet performs and is utilized as a MBR. Clip fed, 7.62 eating, range up to 300 meters ... yet it is short. Most purists will classify it as a carbine yet there are those that insist it is a MBR. Me personally, I classify it as a carbine. Samozaryadniy Karabin sistemi Simonova
 

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Geronimo!
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

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Sell crazy someplace else
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I didn't know that. I have a Garand and a M1A Scout. I also have a 91/30 and a Turkish Mauser. I believe the receiver is German, but all the markings were ground off. Haven't shot the Mauser yet.
 

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MBR = Main Battle Rifle or Modern Battle Rifle (It really depends upon who it is you are speaking with. Historians lean towards "modern" whereas purists lean towards "main.")
guess i am a purest, MBR means Main Battle Rifle. 'modern' is a moving target.

there are also some major issues with the definations you are useing, for example
1. A rifle commonly accepted as one in which battles are, or have been, employed by major military organizations, or the armies of countries, around the world.
this would include percusion cap rifles, at one time the standers around the world.

Assault Rifles are magazine fed.
all multi-shot weapons are magazine fed. The garand has a magazine, a leaver action rifle has a magazine.

a Main Battle Rifle is a rifle that used a full power cartrage, such as the 30'06, 7mm, 7.62X54, 7.62X51. most have internal magazenes (altho more modern examples use the detachabul box magazene), and are usuly semi-auto only.

an Assult Rifle is a rifle that uses a intermediate cartage, such as the 5.56X45, 7.62X39, .30 carbine. most often with detachabul box magazines, and often select fire.

Carbines are typicly pistol cartrages.

these are the definitions that most gun enthusiasts use to define military weapons.
 

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Geronimo!
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
But it's used as a precision/sniper rifle, not as an MBR.
Yes and no.

Yes, it is being utilized as a precision sniper system.

No, it is not being limited to strictly a precision sniper system which is why it is so effective - whereas bolties are not, in similar circumstances, being used as MBRs, naturally. The reason they wanted the box magazine fed SASS was so that it could be employed as a MBR and not just a sniper system. Same way the M14 is employed. Same way.
 

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Currently reading Boston's Gun Bible...how interesting that this conversation has come up. The book has got me interested in purchasing a FAL or M1A to supplement my lower ranged weapons. Not sure if I will do that, or just stick with my carbine (Boston's term) and my Rem 700 in 30-06.
 

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Geronimo!
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Currently reading Boston's Gun Bible...how interesting that this conversation has come up. The book has got me interested in purchasing a FAL or M1A to supplement my lower ranged weapons. Not sure if I will do that, or just stick with my carbine (Boston's term) and my Rem 700 in 30-06.
Max .... I too once believed that the carbines were enough. I've got a safe full of M4s - started with a couple of Bushies then built a couple of my own then got full fledged into SIGs and recently a SCAR.

I was trained by the modern military to believe that 5.56 was good enough ... and it is really, 99% of the time. But my buddies in the big sand box and in ghanie over the past ten years have changed my mind - my contractor buddies with Cochise, Blackwater/Xe, Triple Canopy, et al., schooled me on the benefits of having 7.62 at your back. I listened.

The more research, the more stories I hear, the more I talk to guys - the more I am convinced everyone should have one good magazine fed 7.62 rifle in their arsenal, preferably two identical. To each his own where delivery systems are concerned, I went M14 ... but having a MBR or two is important imho.
 

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Liberty or Death
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Well, it appears I have been misusing the term "MBR". The way I've used the term "MBR" in the past has been more along the lines of the rifle or carbine that I would go to if there was a possibility I would be engaged in combat.

I took it kind of literally. Main battle rifle. The main rifle that I would use in battle. I feel that that's the way others use the term, too.

Thank you for the clarification! I will not misuse the term again.
 

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Geronimo!
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Well, it appears I have been misusing the term "MBR". The way I've used the term "MBR" in the past has been more along the lines of the rifle or carbine that I would go to if there was a possibility I would be engaged in combat.

I took it kind of literally. Main battle rifle. The main rifle that I would use in battle. I feel that that's the way others use the term, too.

Thank you for the clarification! I will not misuse the term again.
That's common - see it done all the time. See a lot of new guys asking, "what is a MBR?

Here are a couple of excerpts from Wiki ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_rifle

A battle rifle is a military service weapon that fires a full power rifle cartridge.[citation needed] While the designation of battle rifle is usually given to post-World War II select fire infantry rifles such as the H&K G3, the FN FAL or the M14, this term can also apply to older military bolt-action or semi-automatic rifles such as the Mosin Nagant or the M1 Garand.[citation needed]
:::::::::::::: further explanation skipped for brevity's sake. but is available in above link :::::::::::::::

In contrast, assault rifles fire smaller intermediate-size cartridges such as the 5.56x45mm NATO round used in the M16, Chinese 5.8x42mm used in the QBZ-95 or the Russian moderate-velocity 7.62x39mm and 5.45x39mm cartridges of the AK-47, AKM, and AK-74 series of rifles. However, some overlapping of rifle design and cartridge application occurs; for example a few relatively compact selective-fire rifles in 7.62x51mm NATO caliber have been produced.[3][4]
BTW, The Boston's Gun Bible (by, Boston T. Party), that Max mentioned is an excellent, almost required, read for those really wanting to understand the difference between assault rifles and MBRs.


http://www.gunvaluesboard.com/main-battle-rifle-110.html

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Talk/talk.politics.guns/2008-05/msg02610.html




 
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Proverbs 26:4
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Max .... I too once believed that the carbines were enough. I've got a safe full of M4s - started with a couple of Bushies then built a couple of my own then got full fledged into SIGs and recently a SCAR.

I was trained by the modern military to believe that 5.56 was good enough ... and it is really, 99% of the time. But my buddies in the big sand box and in ghanie over the past ten years have changed my mind - my contractor buddies with Cochise, Blackwater/Xe, Triple Canopy, et al., schooled me on the benefits of having 7.62 at your back. I listened.

The more research, the more stories I hear, the more I talk to guys - the more I am convinced everyone should have one good magazine fed 7.62 rifle in their arsenal, preferably two identical. To each his own where delivery systems are concerned, I went M14 ... but having a MBR or two is important imho.
As far as a real bona fide battle rifle, I own an Enfeild/303 British. But to your point of having identical rifles I agree. I have two identical go to rifles in .223 but I strongly want to get two identical 7.62x39. I just feel that the added punch/power might be critical at some point.
 

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Geronimo!
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
"Added punch" is key and important, but the real reason behind the "two of everything" theory is standardization in trying times.

Two or more rifles, shotguns, pistols of the same make and model make it easy to transition from one to the other in a static position if one were to jam or overheat or put out of service for whatever reason. By having two your mags are interchangeable and more importantly so is your method and muscle memory. Then there is the parts interchangeability which is key if one is unserviceable and can be turned into a parts gun to repair others. It is the same premise all major militaries adopted two centuries ago ... standardization. If one is good then two is better, and so on. Our soldiers can pick up another soldier's weapon and fight with it ... that is so very important.

I'm going to a big contractor party Saturday night ... going to be downing a few frosties with some of the buds before a few of them transition back to Afghanistan and Pakistan ... and two are moving out of our AO and over to New Mexico to go to work for DOE at some nuclear facility out there who is hiring PMCs right and left it seems and for big money. But Saturday night I am going to get the briefing on some of the new stuff that is showing up over in Afghanistan and Pakistan like the SCAR Heavy which is made right here in Columbia ... finally got mine and I am loving the darn thing. I hear they are hot commodities overseas right now. Plus one of my guys is SASS assigned now and I want to hear how he likes it so far. Should come back with some good poop by Monday hopefully.
 

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You can remove the AR10. It hasn't been to battle. What army uses it?
incorrect....the AR-10 saw service from 1960-1976 with portugal and 1958-1975 with sudan,the AR-10 has seen combat in sudan,mozambique,angola,doninican republic,portugese timor and in every nasty environment africa has to offer and by most all accounts it was a good rifle to have.........
now we have the refined AR-10 and it's clone currently at war in the middle east used as a DMR by the british and american army's..........
 

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Since the Turks used lever action Winchesters agains the Russian forces at the Battle of Pleven I must insist that my '94 winchester be included as a full caliber battle proven design.

As well as any sporting variation of the Mauser/Enfield/Manlicher base rifles already included.

I think that should include about half of the inventory at the local Bass Pro.

The truth is that most of the centerfire rifles of today began their lives as instruments of war, or as you call them "MBR". Working the definitions around to cover what you happen to have in the gunsafe is useless.

Another thread that will go for 20 pages of useless argument with tempers flaring and people being banned for using all those top of the keyboard symbols inappropriately.
 

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Geronimo!
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
dccliffhanger ... anyone that gives out one (1) Thanks in seventeen months doesn't deserve to chime in with this thread quite frankly. Your Thanks (1) to Thanked (683) count comparison/ratio is grossly indicative of your narcissistic belief that you know more, and thus are more wordly and intelligent, than all others around here - when it comes to EVERYTHING evidently.

Your one Thanks was given to, I assume, a cousin of yours in Western Kentucky no less because he simply stated that Turkey Shot and #4 shot are not the same? Okay, well ... I guess that makes you a walking talking expert on the subject huh?

Instead of offering intelligent, unemotional input to this topic you instead choose to react like a menstruating women who has just been told she is gaining weight and has pimples on her nose.

Here, allow me to illustrate to you how I react to nattering nabobs of negativism who burst in and distrupt my personal and otherwise pleasant conversational threads:

Since the Turks used lever action Winchesters agains the Russian forces at the Battle of Pleven I must insist that my '94 winchester be included as a full caliber battle proven design.
Well, what you insist upon and what you shall be granted are two different things dc. The Turks did not employ their 1873 Winneys until well into the battle and after they had wreaked havoc on the Ruskies from long range with their 1872 Peabody Martinis. Once the Russians decided the only way they could win was with a full frontal charge, then and only then did the Turks switchover to the 73s which were the Assault Rifles of their day ... in 44 Henry rimfire if I remember correctly. So your initial input is worthless and I must assume was placed there for dramatic effect with the hopes that you wouldn't be called on it dc? Or were you simply yearning to stir the pot with your bravo sierra?

I think that should include about half of the inventory at the local Bass Pro.
You would think something like that dc - given your propensity to patronize and condescend ... not very flattering, nor honorable attributes I might add. Also, if I am to take your "Bass Pro" challenge literally, I would basically have to question your true knowledge of the subject on any level. And since you ALWAYS fail to back-up your ridiculous self-righteous claims with actual examples, one must come to a reasonable assumption, or conclusion, that you simply type things, such as the sentence above, in an attempt to cover-up your lack of understanding of the topic herein, or to mask your ignorance of the same, and to hide unwillingness to learn? Yours reminds me of someone who can neither read nor write but instead of asking for help they want to punch you in the nose when you ask them to read something to you.

It's pathetic quite frankly ... pathetic. My dear Mother has always said that if you cannot add something constructive to a conversation, just keep your dang mouth shut and listen ... or in your case dc, READ.

The truth is that most of the centerfire rifles of today began their lives as instruments of war, or as you call them "MBR". Working the definitions around to cover what you happen to have in the gunsafe is useless.
Covering what I, or anyone, has in their gun safe is the least of the intentioned purpose of this thread. Only you would come up with something like that in your twisted little, (and I do mean little in terms of cranial matter), head. I honestly believe it must be jealousy motivated? Yes, many center fire rifles do owe their origins to military designs ... as do most modern surgical procedures, many modern automotive advancements, all modern space travel and satellite technology, all modern communications technology, etc ... which certainly does not prevent some from debating the inherent strengths and weaknesses of cable/dish/directv or iPhones/Blackberrys/Palms or which off road vehicles are best. Only the most hubristic of message board personalities, such as yourself dc, would attempt to thwart the sacrosanct practice of comparison through experienced debate that most are allowed to enjoy in forums such as this every day. Just stay out of this thread if you are incapable of offering more in the form of intelligent and subjective opinion dc. I do not cater to your ilk when it comes to thread disruption ... not in my threads at least. I take too much pride in putting thought into them ... and appreciate to a great degree those that choose to add their ideas and opinions in a respectful manner. It's how I learn ... and I'll not tolerate you preventing me, or anyone else, from enjoying that Right without your bad breath entering the picture.

Another thread that will go for 20 pages of useless argument with tempers flaring and people being banned for using all those top of the keyboard symbols inappropriately.
This was the most peaceable of threads, highly informative and enjoyable, until you came along dc. Not one argument, not one flare of temper, not one keyboard symbol, not one banning. You are attempting to self-fulfill one of your sick little prophecies and I highly recommend you crawl back into your hole and not disrupt this thread again - or either issue an apology and ask for forgiveness for being the disruptive little know-it-all that you obviously believe your are dc. Rather than disrupting threads, why don't you take your butt back out into the forum and practice hitting the Thanks button to the many many hundreds of members who provide useful information to this community every day ... unlike you, obviously.

1:683 ... WOW! How telling is that huh?
 

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dccliffhanger ... anyone that gives out one (1) Thanks in seventeen months doesn't deserve to chime in with this thread quite frankly. Your Thanks (1) to Thanked (683) count comparison/ratio is grossly indicative of your narcissistic belief that you know more, and thus are more wordly and intelligent, than all others around here - when it comes to EVERYTHING evidently.

Your one Thanks was given to, I assume, a cousin of yours in Western Kentucky no less because he simply stated that Turkey Shot and #4 shot are not the same? Okay, well ... I guess that makes you a walking talking expert on the subject huh?

Instead of offering intelligent, unemotional input to this topic you instead choose to react like a menstruating women who has just been told she is gaining weight and has pimples on her nose.

Here, allow me to illustrate to you how I react to nattering nabobs of negativism who burst in and distrupt my personal and otherwise pleasant conversational threads:



Well, what you insist upon and what you shall be granted are two different things dc. The Turks did not employ their 1873 Winneys until well into the battle and after they had wreaked havoc on the Ruskies from long range with their 1872 Peabody Martinis. Once the Russians decided the only way they could win was with a full frontal charge, then and only then did the Turks switchover to the 73s which were the Assault Rifles of their day ... in 44 Henry rimfire if I remember correctly. So your initial input is worthless and I must assume was placed there for dramatic effect with the hopes that you wouldn't be called on it dc? Or were you simply yearning to stir the pot with your bravo sierra?



You would think something like that dc - given your propensity to patronize and condescend ... not very flattering, nor honorable attributes I might add. Also, if I am to take your "Bass Pro" challenge literally, I would basically have to question your true knowledge of the subject on any level. And since you ALWAYS fail to back-up your ridiculous self-righteous claims with actual examples, one must come to a reasonable assumption, or conclusion, that you simply type things, such as the sentence above, in an attempt to cover-up your lack of understanding of the topic herein, or to mask your ignorance of the same, and to hide unwillingness to learn? Yours reminds me of someone who can neither read nor write but instead of asking for help they want to punch you in the nose when you ask them to read something to you.

It's pathetic quite frankly ... pathetic. My dear Mother has always said that if you cannot add something constructive to a conversation, just keep your dang mouth shut and listen ... or in your case dc, READ.

The truth is that most of the centerfire rifles of today began their lives as instruments of war, or as you call them "MBR". Working the definitions around to cover what you happen to have in the gunsafe is useless.
Covering what I, or anyone, has in their gun safe is the least of the intentioned purpose of this thread. Only you would come up with something like that in your twisted little, (and I do mean little in terms of cranial matter), head. I honestly believe it must be jealousy motivated? Yes, many center fire rifles do owe their origins to military designs ... as do most modern surgical procedures, many modern automotive advancements, all modern space travel and satellite technology, all modern communications technology, etc ... which certainly does not prevent some from debating the inherent strengths and weaknesses of cable/dish/directv or iPhones/Blackberrys/Palms or which off road vehicles are best. Only the most hubristic of message board personalities, such as yourself dc, would attempt to thwart the sacrosanct practice of comparison through experienced debate that most are allowed to enjoy in forums such as this every day. Just stay out of this thread if you are incapable of offering more in the form of intelligent and subjective opinion dc. I do not cater to your ilk when it comes to thread disruption ... not in my threads at least. I take too much pride in putting thought into them ... and appreciate to a great degree those that choose to add their ideas and opinions in a respectful manner. It's how I learn ... and I'll not tolerate you preventing me, or anyone else, from enjoying that Right without your bad breath entering the picture.



This was the most peaceable of threads, highly informative and enjoyable, until you came along dc. Not one argument, not one flare of temper, not one keyboard symbol, not one banning. You are attempting to self-fulfill one of your sick little prophecies and I highly recommend you crawl back into your hole and not disrupt this thread again - or either issue an apology and ask for forgiveness for being the disruptive little know-it-all that you obviously believe your are dc. Rather than disrupting threads, why don't you take your butt back out into the forum and practice hitting the Thanks button to the many many hundreds of members who provide useful information to this community every day ... unlike you, obviously.

1:683 ... WOW! How telling is that huh?
So I'm right then?
 
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