This post seems kinda pointless....but I'll bite.


How is the AK47 obsolete exactly? It kills well trained soldiers and pmcs with "tactical rifles" every single day.


Training on your rifle is far more important than what rifle you happen to have. I'd take some muj with Ak47s on my side any day over 90+% of civilians with tacticool rifles.

It's all about being proficient with what ya got.

 

I would have to agree, only time will tell in this matter. I will retain all of my AK's none the less.

HH54r

 

Several random thoughts as I read through this...

#1. I own an AK because the AR is to damn expensive. The ammo is to damn expensive. For less than the price of a "good" AR, I bought an AK and 1000 rounds of ammo.

#2. Time to target might be important in house to house fighting. I don't think most of us here are worried about house to house fighting. (My AK will go through the house from side to side and through brick and block anyway.)

#3. There are a lot of tacticool add-ons for the AK with more showing up every day.

#4. Tactics dictate the outcome of a fire fight in open terrain, not individual rifle handling skill. Again, in house to house fighting, I think speed of rifle handling is a valid point.

 

The Ak allways has and allways will fill a niche that in my opinion couldn't be filled by any other weapon. I guess by your definition Spetsnaz are not professionals...

 

You guys are all missing my point.....and yes I my title was sarcastic....

gonna have to revise this......

 

I am not claiming that someone that has an AR15 is all of a sudden a tactical master just for possessing it.....

Maybe I should have worded things a bit different, but I am just claiming that the AK47/74 is not as well suited to the "professional" scene as the AR is.

There are also so many other reasons for choosing the AR platform for AMERICAN shtf. Maybe I will start on that later....

And we are just having a damn discussion....no need to start crying and getting all butt hurt about things....

I have both an AR and AK and am actually saving up for an Arsenal so don't think I'm "hating" on your rifle.....

I said I like the AK as well....geeeeezzzzz....so touchy, touchy

 

The AK gods are angry with your disloyalty:thumb:

 

Alright, let me break this down for you all Barney-style cause I can see alot of blank stares and drooling going on....

The AR is FASTER. And faster WINS. "Generally" speaking of course.

I guess those Magpul guys got it all wrong and you experts need to go school them, huh?

 

Faster, Magpul don't own the market on fast. If you google you can pull up as many fast AK video's as there are fast AR's videos.

Never did like barney, don't drool unless I sleep and I ain't sleep'in.

Any weapons platform can be utilized fast, it just takes training.

BTW there are still 10's and thousands of AK's made every year. So at what point should they quit making them???

I don't really agree with your point here. I have seen many of your post before and don't really figure you for a troll. So what's the problem with a very viable weapons platform. Check into some training, take a look on the Kreb's site.

HH54r

 

You have all the "controls" literally at your fingertips. The 5.56 is easier to "tame" for quicker follow-up shots as opposed to an AK.

And BECAUSE of all of these unique designs on a rifle, it has allowed us to "refine" our shooting and fighting techniques to a deadly and efficient training philosophy.

Now granted I may be going off on into the "mall ninja" realm here, but there is the very real possibilty of facing enemies who are well trained and organized. A majority of us aren't part of a well-trained civilian militia that could effectively hold out against such adversaries with a handful of AKs......

Now I am getting more into my view of why the AR would be a better option for most situations in a SHTF event....

 

I guess the thoughts in my head didn't translate too well on my screen....

......carry on

 

I like the thread, but i doubt that you are gonna get any of us hardcore AK users here to submit to your train of thought. You can try.

HH54r

 

Well I am a fellow AK user there myself.....you guys....uuuughgghhgh....nevermind...

wasn't trying to trash the AK at all.....I think the misconception started with the bad title......is there anyway to change that?

 

Some Disclaimers:

1. I am a Former Marine, but I in no way claim to be a tactical firearms expert by any means and would love to get into a Magpul class one day. I am always learning an improving upon the basic skill sets that have been taught to me both inside and outside the military scene. (those who have been with Magpul, please share!)

2. I like AKs and there is no dispute on their toughness, reliability, and close range potency of the x39 round. World's number one "assault rifle" for a reason.

WITH THAT SAID:

Terms such as "tactical" and "fighting rifles" that have been applied to firearms and their instruction is a rather recent development in modern warfare.

You can knock the M16/M4/AR15 all you want, but it has been the soul reason (in my observation) for the advent of the true "evolution" in the way we have learned to fight with our rifles.

The evolution of Stoner's design has literally revolutionized so many facets of combat. The ability to "tacticalize" our pieces have actually effected the physics of how we are now taught to fight with them as opposed to what we were taught decades ago.

The AR has revolutionized how we see, fight, move, etc against the enemy on the battlefield (wherever that may be).

I think Magpul's idea to use a picture of the samurai on their products really hits the nail on the head on how the modern AR has brought about a complete "fighting art" into the arena.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that the AK has become an outdated system for those who truly practice the "art" of the tactical carbine.

I have been to some other types of courses and classes and have met some dudes that are wicked fast with their AKs. And to have knowledge of that platform is a must. But there is a REASON why professionals worldwide utilize the AR platform....and it's not because "that's all that is available to them."

The dude (that is properly trained and experienced) with an AR platform will ALWAYS be quicker to draw, quicker on target, quicker on the trigger, quicker to be accurate, and quicker to reload than the guy with the AK. Hands down.

And when it comes to close quarters fighting and engagements, whoever is quicker will win the fight. Obviously there are so many other factors that come into play such as properly fighting from cover, etc. But the main idea is to be the quickest and to do that, you need to have a rifle that allows for efficiency of movement. That is why I defend the AR over any other platform when people ask as to what rifle they should purchase.

If you aren't that serious about becoming combat proficient with your rifle (which if you own one I think you have a DUTY and RESPONSIBILITY to do so), then get whatever you want.

But we have to come to the reality that we may be having to engage persons post SHTF that have this training and proficiency. The guy with the SKS may throw his hands up and call the game and kiss his arse goodbye....not me. I need to be just as proficient and with a rifle that will assist in that goal.

But if you are serious:

YouTube- Magpul "The Art Of The Tactical Carbine" 3-Disc DVD Set from U.S. Cavalry



I am not interested in starting yet another AR vs AK ****ing match (although, that is what this will inevitably degenerate to....

But say what you will, I say the most sensible platform to choose for prepping for ANY post American SHTF will be the AR chambered for 5.56. It is a superior platform in so many ways, even before you get any kind of formal training with it. I know not everyone has the funds for an AR and it is always better to have any rifle as opposed to nothing at all, but I like to know I have the unforseen advantage.....

Not to mention, if you think you are gonna just slide by post SHTF with just a bolt-action and a few boxes of ammo.....goodluck, brother!

You AT LEAST need a "high-capacity" semi-auto rifle with a few thousand rounds (the least)......that leaves the AR and AK.

YouTube- Michael Buffer - Lets get ready to Rumble

If the difference between the AR as a tactical house-to-house precision clearing gun and the AK as a lighter-weight battle rifle geared to the doctrine of salvo fire really comes into play, then you have failed in the basics of your preparedness.

The AR was developed with the same purpose in mind as the AK: to lay down suppressive fire that will embolden ignorant-as-**** conscripts to spend their time firing on the enemy, instead of just going through the motions. Both platforms accomplished that. But the AR turned out to be far more versatile and accurate, and better adapted to the precision tactical environment.

There are two principal problems with this doctrine:

1) Tactical operations require not only precision training, but also support and logistics. They are immediate and short-term engagements. US forces in Iraq and Afghanistan go on patrol, in radio contact with a network of support, and return inn short order to the relative comfort of a base or rally point where the logistics have been put in place to provide them with bullets, beans, intel, and maintenance equipment. Most of us have a difficult enough time providing those for ourselves now, they will be non-existent when SHTF.

The AK, on the other hand, can be abused for extended periods, trekked all over where there is no logistical support, and function admirably.

2) The other principal issue is that if you are engaging opponents in situations where these kinds of precision tactics are necessary, you have failed to plan. These are Plan B tactics. Engaging at close range where your loved ones are vulnerable is a last resort.

That being said, I own an AR and not an AK. This is because I trust my Mini 14 the same way AK fanatics trust their AK's and I didn't want to have to buy another caliber. Also, my wife is a whiz with the AR. But, if she needs to engage anyone, things will likely already be pretty bad.

 

Thanks for humoring me drudge,

This is what I was trying to start....this section seemed to be stagnating for awhile and wanted to get folks blood pumping again here.....

I prefer the AK as well.......just making a case for the AR in American SHTF that isn't that far off base (and giving credit where credit is due for the AR being a catalyst for starting the tactical carbine revolution).....many reason why I also bought an AR chambered for 5.56

And unless you are part of a trained fire team with short and long range weaponry working in unison....

I see no way to NOT avoid having to engage short range......too many negative factors come into play if you start engaging folks at long range with no additional support....

 

Close can also be a non issue. Spray your AR into heavy brush. Then follow up with a burst from an AK and see which is more effective.

HH54r

 

Or cinder block, brick, vinyl, w/e....

 

DISREGARD THIS THREAD.

But if you clicked anyway....here's a cool video:

YouTube- Magpul "The Art Of The Tactical Carbine" 3-Disc DVD Set from U.S. Cavalry



Semper Fi.

A mall ninja's wet dream! ::

 

Yeah, show up at the next Magpul course and call them "mall ninjas"....

I'm sure that will go over quite well.....

 

Did I miss the post where someone claims to have stuffed their AK with mud and had it continue to fire? An AR vs AK thread is lame unitl someone chimes in with that little anecdote.

 

very true, sir.....


only after it's been buried for 50 years or so and rusted shut!

 

If people on both sides of the argument would have been less condescending, this could have been an informative thread . As it is, it has turned into a ****ing contest...

 

If people on both sides of the argument would have been less condescending, thus could have been an informative thread . As it is, it has turned into a ****ing contest...

Yep.

I predicted that back at the beginning before having to delete everythng I said.....



oh well

 

Hey! Listen here, I can burry my Ak in sand, mud, gravel, snow, water, fire, brimestone, lava, and run over it with a dump truck, and it still fires!

CAN YOU DO THAT WITH YOUR AR?

 

AR vs AK thread requirements complete. Thank you.

You could have mentioned that the AK is easy enough to operate that a 10 year old can do it, but your post as is will suffice.

 

just a question why did the soviets go wit a smaller cartridge 5.45x39mm? on the ak74

 

Because we switched to 5.56 on the m16....

 

Alright, I'll play all your little AK games....

Gotta hand it to these little tikes...they got some spunk!

 

I'll add my two pennies to this.

When I think of the AR 15, I think of a modern warrior, with modern gear, top notch training, access to electricity, AC, running water, indoor plumbing, etc.

When I think of the AK 47/74, I think of a guy that has been in the bush for months, who lives off the land, has little to no contact with other people, is self sufficient and could go for many more months the same way.

In other words, it's slick technology vs. rough utilitarianism.

If I was a cop, on a SWAT team, with everything that entitles, I would definitely want to run the AR platform.

If I was on my own, surviving and trying to make ends meet...AK 47...

It's all a matter of application in my mind.

 

So in other words...buy both?

Problem solved!!

 

I sure have seen a lot of pictures of Blackwater employees carrying AK's

 

There are 2 things that make a gunlsinger worth his salt: #1. Lots of practice. #2. Lots of experience.

An experienced and practiced shooter with an AK can easily defeat or overwhelm a novice using an M-4. By the same token, an experienced shooter with an M-4 can overwhelm the novice using the AK. Both rifles have their favorable factors and unfavorable factors to them. But there is one other thing...

Guys who use the scoped M-1As, the SASS or scoped AR-10 rifles or the guys who use the scoped 6.5 Grendel rifles will own both of the guys using the M-4s or the AKs. These guys are all using expereince, lots of practice, time and distance to their collective advantage. What good is either an AK or a M-4 when you have to move across 500 yards of open terrain to get close enough to try to engage a well positioned long range rifleman? You're dead meat long before you even start to get close enough to shoot back.

 

Anyone who can't pick up either one, as well as any other type of fighting rifle, and use it at least fairly proficiently has no business saying he has a "fighting rifle philosophy".

As the above poster said, both have their advantages and disadvantages (as does the SASS type rifle), we need to know how to use them ALL.

 

Ok, I'll bite on this one.

How can someone say the AK isn't a fast system. Ever herd of a AK-74U?

Light weight, can damn near fit into your pocket..... "fast"?

Say'n that any gun is the best gun ever made and shoots .000000001 moa at a bazillion yards is just closed minded. Or say'n one gun is better than another gun.

If it fires everytime and keeps your ass alive. It is the best gun/system/platform or whatever/ you can ever have.

 

It ain't the arrow it's the indian!

 

Well said...

 

Oh goody another AR commercial. And it sounds like someone who either works for magpul, or has taken one of their courses.

Speed is attained by practice, accuracy is attained by practice. Properly trained anyone can be good with any weapon system.

I'll keep my AK thanks.

For some reason I knew that this would be another mall ninja starting yet another "discussion" on why his preferred weapon is best. Your theories and practices about not shooting at what you cannot see unless you have a target are not intelligent when bad guys hide behind concealment. They shoot from concealment. Shooting into that concealment is what kills the person shooting at you.

Have fun with your "discussion". The fellas that have stated training is important are the fellas I will listen too. Good day sir.

 

You guys are hopeless.....

And they called me "knuckle-dragger".......lol