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Discussion Starter · #661 ·
There should be limits on immigration, only what America needs, not leaches, but people who can actually work and pay their own way. Another is learning English before becoming a citizen, as well as learning our constitution.
This is the only thing in the wall of text I agree with. But, that is exactly what Japan is doing , and Japan is THE worst country GDP vs debt

1​
Japan259.43%

I sent a link to the list a few posts ago. US is #14 and the ONLY reason it isn't #1 is because US lets all these illegals in here. Japan has this problem because the population is too old and they do not let illegals, or even legal immigrants from all over the planet in.
Why don't you get this?! If the population is shrinking ( which it is in all modern countries) , and you have any sort of pension system and healthcare system paid for by the government, you will run into this problem. The US is currently dealing with it by creating more money which causes more inflation, and letting all these immigrants legal and illegal in, with the hope they willl A : consume ( which they always do) and B : maybe even work which many do.
You cannot grow the economy when the population is shrinking. It's not really such a difficult concept but YOU seem to not get that. You cannot grow the economy with robots either ( Japan is trying that already) , because they don't consume and they can't do everything
 

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This is the only thing in the wall of text I agree with. But, that is exactly what Japan is doing , and Japan is THE worst country GDP vs debt

1​
Japan259.43%

I sent a link to the list a few posts ago. US is #14 and the ONLY reason it isn't #1 is because US lets all these illegals in here. Japan has this problem because the population is too old and they do not let illegals, or even legal immigrants from all over the planet in.
Why don't you get this?! If the population is shrinking ( which it is in all modern countries) , and you have any sort of pension system and healthcare system paid for by the government, you will run into this problem. The US is currently dealing with it by creating more money which causes more inflation, and letting all these immigrants legal and illegal in, with the hope they willl A : consume ( which they always do) and B : maybe even work which many do.
You cannot grow the economy when the population is shrinking. It's not really such a difficult concept but YOU seem to not get that. You cannot grow the economy with robots either ( Japan is trying that already) , because they don't consume and they can't do everything
Sonya,

Is it a critical criteria to compare GDP to debt ? Somewhere a ratio involving FOREX needed.

In the US, many of the "illegals" (actually: "new citizens" [so obvious]) are currently working outside of FICA and reducing national labor costs.

The US Fed's money creation helps liquidate middle class assets. This is a form of debt service.

With these relativley new ~ 40 million new arrivals, is the US ppn shrinking ?

...

Above not my political philosophical views; just my observations.
 

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Discussion Starter · #663 ·
Sonya,

Is it a critical criteria to compare GDP to debt ? Somewhere a ratio involving FOREX needed.

In the US, many of the "illegals" (actually: "new citizens" [so obvious]) are currently working outside of FICA and reducing national labor costs.

The US Fed's money creation helps liquidate middle class assets. This is a form of debt service.

With these relativley new ~ 40 million new arrivals, is the US ppn shrinking ?

...

Above not my political philosophical views; just my observations.
Debt to GDP measures the ability to pay back the debt. The higher the number the less likely it can ever be paid back. So eventually the country will default.

The US population is still growing a tiny bit, because of the illegals. Even if the illegals work outside the system, they will still consume stuff , which helps the economy. They live places, eat, drink, drive whatever.

I just looked this up, ironically Japan holds the most US debt in the form of treasuries, China is next. So both of these countries would be screwed if the US went under. Well Japan more.
 

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Trump proves that by stripping regulations…. keeping your thumb on the Federal Reserve day and night, and investing tax dollars wisely into energy you can turn a lousy economy around in a year or two…. In fact it’s SO easy to have a stable economy that I’m still in disbelief about it at times.

It’s simple…… Invest in the people who actually want to work, stop investing in the ones who don’t and increase you production of goods and energy to sell here and over seas.
 

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Reagan and Kennedy proved it too. Growing the economy regardless of the number of people a country has, grows their standard of living. This has been proven out for over 200 years. New products to make life easier, better building of homes, electricity vs kerosene oil lamps, gas and electricity vs firewood for cooking and heating. Japan and Germany proved this after being bombed out in WWII. They both invested in manufacturing and production instead of social welfare programs like England did. Thus both countries have a higher standard of living than England. England went almost full blown socialist after WWII, thus stagnated their economy. Japan imports almost everything, like raw materials, but manufactures great products to sell. Germany does too. Both mostly automobiles, cameras, etc. Yes a lot of consumer goods rely on population growth, but many do not.
 

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The problem is that while some of these illegals (not citizens) work jobs the majority still receive benefits from the government both local and federal. The fact that they are outside of FICA only exacerbates the situation as they also don’t pay much into the system as taxes besides sales tax. I volunteer with several orgs that work with illegal immigrants and my daughters fiancé is a Latino working for a US representative as his immigration aid. We are both in complete agreement on the economic numbers regarding the illegals crossing the border. They are by far a net drain on our economy. The liberals plan to both boost our population and “help” the economy and create a huge block of new voters for the progressive politicians of this country is an abysmal failure from an economic standpoint. Whether it leads to unassailable majorities in the government for liberals remains to be seen. The only positive is that many Latinos are defecting from the democratic party and switching to Republican. Many of the up and comers in the Republican Party are act7ally Latino.
And what would FOREX, the foreign exchange market have to do with this?

Sonya,

Is it a critical criteria to compare GDP to debt ? Somewhere a ratio involving FOREX needed.

In the US, many of the "illegals" (actually: "new citizens" [so obvious]) are currently working outside of FICA and reducing national labor costs.

The US Fed's money creation helps liquidate middle class assets. This is a form of debt service.

With these relativley new ~ 40 million new arrivals, is the US ppn shrinking ?

...

Above not my political philosophical views; just my observations.
 

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Discussion Starter · #667 ·
US population over time (usafacts.org)

I don't want the illegals here either, and I also voted for Trump twice, but that doesn't change the fact that the US population without them will shrink, especially after all the boomers are gone.
Notice on the graph, the only category growing is "hispanic" which are mostly the illegals.

Even Trump cannot run an economy like it currently is with a shrinking population and decrease the debt or deficit.
 

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A shrinking population might be temporary. I have kids in their 30's just now starting families. Millennials, and gen z'ers are starting life late. 50% of men 18-35 are still living at home. They will wake up soon when their parents and grandparents die. Women starting late can have complications in pregnancy and childbirth.
 

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Discussion Starter · #669 ·
more facts for you

US Debt by President: Dollar and Percentage (thebalancemoney.com)

Notice both parties have increased it depending on what they did. Reagen increased it by a lot without having a WW to deal with. Bush and his war on terror increased it also. Obama increased it a ton by economic bailouts and Obamacare. Trump only increased it a little and he did not decrease it obviously

No President on either side is going to fix this unless they are willing to lower our standard of living substantially and give up on a military that controls the planet...sad but true.
I can see by the responses on here that no politician is ever going to want to deal with it! Nobody wants to hear it or accept facts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #670 ·
A shrinking population might be temporary. I have kids in their 30's just now starting families. Millennials, and gen z'ers are starting life late. 50% of men 18-35 are still living at home. They will wake up soon when their parents and grandparents die. Women starting late can have complications in pregnancy and childbirth.
And here you are with the wishful thinking again....NO woman, unless in a religious cult of some sort is going to be willing to have 5-10 kids today! It's that simple. Birthcontrol exists. So unless you want to live in a country like Afghanistan run by the Taliban women are not going to have more than 1, 2 or maybe 3 kids. Some women will always chose to not have any. My daughter is 30 and just had her first kid. She plans on having 1 more. Our son does not think he will want any. And these are typical numbers. The only couple we are friends with that have a son that plans on maybe having more than 2 is very religious Catholic and does not believe in birthcontrol. But ALL the rest of people we know so far are not even grandparents at all except 1.
And the Amish do not pay into social security or medicare system btw.
So you have a choice, illegals, or shrinking population....
Which would you prefer?
I prefer shrinking population and figure out an economic system that doesn't require growth
 

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Yes, gold is not exactly finite, neither is the economy as some on the left think. The economy can grow. Trump proved this with getting rid of a lot of regulation and lowering taxes, as well as refinancing the government debt at a lower interest rate. More people went to work and the economy had the lowest unemployment since WWII and was on par with his second administration, if he won, and covid not happened, to balance the budget. He knew how to run an economy.

Reagan also proved the economy could grow with again, tax cuts and deregulation. Kennedy also did it in the early 1960's.

As inflation grows, it puts everyone eventually into higher tax brackets and they pay more in taxes. Cutting taxes gets it back to where inflation doesn't bother people as much and they have more spending power. In the last 200 years, the economy of the western world grew faster than the population of the world. We had more people and the standard of living rose faster. Each generation was better off than the preceding generation. The left thinks the economy is finite and that the "pie" is limited thus the idea of taxing the rich more and giving it to the poor. The poor are poor because they don't want to work harder, get better educated, or just plain lazy. If you have good ideas, work hard to achieve them, it normally will pan out if the economy is not messed with by the government. Gloom and doom can only happen if people give up and don't work to stop it. We don't have to go to socialism or communism to make everyone equally miserable. Even communist China had to adapt capitalism to grow their economy and standard of living. So has eastern Europe.

We may have turbulent times now, but we are in the transition stage from fossil fuels to solar, wind, tidal, geothermal, and more nuclear power sources. Also in a transition to alternative transportation. There are growing pains. However, we must have fossil fuels now until the complete transition takes place. It is not going to happen overnight.

Closing the border is needed or we will become a Hispanic nation. If we have a worker shortage, inovation, instead of invasion will use robotics, 3d printing, etc to keep the economy going. You are beginning to see this in the fast food industry. In some places you order from a terminal, pay for it, and then pick up your order. Even robots are being tested in Japan for hamburger assembly. This cuts one or two workers. Manufacturing has become highly automated also. Japan is not being invaded and their population is decreasing, so they are using more robotics. This can happen here, especially if minimum wages are raised too high.
There should be limits on immigration, only what America needs, not leaches, but people who can actually work and pay their own way. Another is learning English before becoming a citizen, as well as learning our constitution.
Gold is finite. It's also worthless when things fall apart.

The economy can grow because gold isn't used.

Trump wanted protectionism, which works against a country that faces the Triffin dilemma.

Reagan deregulated to increase debt. That, in turn, allowed for more spending.

It's not leftists but survivalists who think the world is finite. And you're in a survivalist board.

Capitalists want people to work harder so that they get a better return. Masses can get what trickles down to them. But the world in which they live is finite; hence, this thread and a survivalist board.

All energy sources have low returns.

Robotics makes matters worse because robots aren't customers. They also don't reverse energy returns.

Finally, about limiting immigration, keep in mind that the country is a land of immigrants.
 

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Reagan and Kennedy proved it too. Growing the economy regardless of the number of people a country has, grows their standard of living. This has been proven out for over 200 years. New products to make life easier, better building of homes, electricity vs kerosene oil lamps, gas and electricity vs firewood for cooking and heating. Japan and Germany proved this after being bombed out in WWII. They both invested in manufacturing and production instead of social welfare programs like England did. Thus both countries have a higher standard of living than England. England went almost full blown socialist after WWII, thus stagnated their economy. Japan imports almost everything, like raw materials, but manufactures great products to sell. Germany does too. Both mostly automobiles, cameras, etc. Yes a lot of consumer goods rely on population growth, but many do not.
It involved oil. That peaked per capita globally in 1979.

Much of mining, manufacturing, mechanized agriculture, and shipping are dependent on oil.

All substitutes have low energy returns and quantities.
 

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A shrinking population might be temporary. I have kids in their 30's just now starting families. Millennials, and gen z'ers are starting life late. 50% of men 18-35 are still living at home. They will wake up soon when their parents and grandparents die. Women starting late can have complications in pregnancy and childbirth.
Birth rates go down with birth rates due to prosperity, but both go up due to poverty.
 

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And here you are with the wishful thinking again....NO woman, unless in a religious cult of some sort is going to be willing to have 5-10 kids today! It's that simple. Birthcontrol exists. So unless you want to live in a country like Afghanistan run by the Taliban women are not going to have more than 1, 2 or maybe 3 kids. Some women will always chose to not have any. My daughter is 30 and just had her first kid. She plans on having 1 more. Our son does not think he will want any. And these are typical numbers. The only couple we are friends with that have a son that plans on maybe having more than 2 is very religious Catholic and does not believe in birthcontrol. But ALL the rest of people we know so far are not even grandparents at all except 1.
And the Amish do not pay into social security or medicare system btw.
So you have a choice, illegals, or shrinking population....
Which would you prefer?
I prefer shrinking population and figure out an economic system that doesn't require growth
We have a winner ^ the constant growth mindset is terrible, I don't want to turn every forest into a walmart because (muh eCoNoMy) (muh GrOwTh). Also replacing first world populations with third world populations for growth has serious innumerable consequences. Anyone who's intellectually honest and has critical thinking can see what's going on and how it's going to play out.
 

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Without economic growth, the standard of living does not go up. Even with a neutral population growth rate, the standard of living will remain stagnent unless there is growth, new products created, etc. It has nothing to do with so called consumer goods. Food, clothing, and toiletries are the only real consumer goods. Furniture can last a lifetime if properly taken care of, so can homes. Even vehicles can last for years if properly taken care of. Most appliances can last for 20 years. People misuse them. We have an 18 year old refrigerator-freezer we bought new. The ice maker quit working, we replaced it ourselves for $35. Anyway, when it gets down to it, we can do without TV, computers, phones, even refrigerators. We can go back to the 1800's and use firewood, dry, smoke, salt/sugar meats, and can our food. Seems like that is what many here want to do. Peek oil was actually never reached as claimed. Cars got more efficient, but there are more cars. In Texas many old unproducing wells are slowly filling back up with oil. Also, I just read and article that said the UN lied about the world's climate increasing, when for 15 years it remained the same. They also said years ago that much of Florida and low lieing areas would be flooded by now. 20 years ago Al Gore said the poles would be melted by now. All of what they said hasn't happened.

I think one of the biggest problems since 1960 has been the transition from glass and canned containers to plastics. I collected soft drink bottles to sell back to the local grocery store for a penny a bottle, later 2 cents a bottle. Then they went to aluminum cans and plastic bottles. I also remember growing up with glass mayonnaise, mustard, and ketchup bottles. My grandmother used mustard jars for canning jellies. They reused the glass containers for fruits and vegetables you could water bath or make into pickled things. They used used ketchup bottles for peppers. Nothing was wasted. Cans could be recycled or put to other uses. Not anywhere near as much waste as today. Living in the country, no one had to deal with trash. Paper trash was burned. Glass and metal were recycled into other usable things or taken to a metal or glass recycling center. No one used throw away diapers either, they used cloth diapers and washed them.

I do agree that uneducated 3rd world people flooding 1st world countries will be a huge problem in the future if there is not enough time for them to assimilate and learn the the first world skills. I do see a lot of Hispanic labor in my area doing house framing, masonry work, and sheet rock work. As time goes on, the older homes in my area are torn down and new homes are being built. New homes are more efficient and use far less energy than the older homes. This is improving the standard of living.

Forests in my state are constantly being cut for wood and paper product production. They are always replanted. Southern pines mature in 20 years. So they are constantly being cut and replanted. Lumber is made and the scrap sawdust is made into press board or wafer board. The bark is stripped and used for mulch, or they burn it to dry the lumber. Very efficient, these new sawmills. My hometown has a metal recycling center. If an older home is torn down, the piping and wiring are stripped out and taken to the recycling center. Bricks are sometimes recycled, even the old wood in the home, even windows and doors. Very little is wasted. My uncle built a cabin on a lake from getting recycled wood from an old wooden school that was torn down. He made a lot of trips in his pickup truck. After work every day and on weekends.

It is not all gloom and doom, just changing time. However, we do need to get immigration under control, the federal budget under control, otherwise we will have banking problems and too many people in poverty to deal with. Economic growth for 200 years has been faster than the population growth. Population growth does not equal economic growth.
 

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The biggest problem with Japan is they have the longest life span in the world at about 80 years. They have a huge older non working population that is dependent on the younger ones working. Most western countries are that way. Some older people can work longer, but some can't due to health and age related problems. Thus Japan is highly in debt. The US is getting that way, but welfare, food stamps, and welfare programs such as rent subsities, are a huge burden on society. Too many able bodied people not working. Right now in my area, fast food places all have help wanted signs. They are also paying more than minimum wage. When I was growing up these jobs were filled with teenagers working after school and on weekends. Today they are not. Omaha, Nebraska cut their crime rate by over 60% by working with businesses, schools, churches, and others to get teenagers jobs. This included violent crime. If this was practiced in most places teens wouldn't be getting into trouble, but earning money to buy cars or things they want, or like me paying my way through college. It is not encouraged today. If this happened young enough, many would get out of poverty and we wouldn't need so many immigrants.

Here is the crime reduction model news:
How one city cut gun violence in half and may become a model around the country - ABC News (go.com)
 

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Without economic growth, the standard of living does not go up. Even with a neutral population growth rate, the standard of living will remain stagnent unless there is growth

Population growth does not equal economic growth.


I left the 2 things I have a reply to, first we do not need a higher standard of living. Any more "higher" and you get complete idiocracy of fat and lazy people that can't and won't do a thing except sit in front of a screen. I would say standard of living needs to go down some and it will.

No population growth obviously does not equal economic growth ( or Somalia would be a awesome country...)
But lack of population growth in a modern US type economy means lack of economic growth, which you really can't afford to have if there is a huge amount of debt
 

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Discussion Starter · #678 ·
The biggest problem with Japan is they have the longest life span in the world at about 80 years. They have a huge older non working population that is dependent on the younger ones working. Most western countries are that way. Some older people can work longer, but some can't due to health and age related problems. Thus Japan is highly in debt. The US is getting that way,
You don't say...:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

not exactly "getting" that way, I think we have arrived , when the debt number has so many digits you can no longer put it in your phone calculator, I would say it's astronomically big ( I had to use my engineering calculator to figure out the gold thing the other day )
 

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Without economic growth, the standard of living does not go up. Even with a neutral population growth rate, the standard of living will remain stagnent unless there is growth, new products created, etc. It has nothing to do with so called consumer goods. Food, clothing, and toiletries are the only real consumer goods. Furniture can last a lifetime if properly taken care of, so can homes. Even vehicles can last for years if properly taken care of. Most appliances can last for 20 years. People misuse them. We have an 18 year old refrigerator-freezer we bought new. The ice maker quit working, we replaced it ourselves for $35. Anyway, when it gets down to it, we can do without TV, computers, phones, even refrigerators. We can go back to the 1800's and use firewood, dry, smoke, salt/sugar meats, and can our food. Seems like that is what many here want to do. Peek oil was actually never reached as claimed. Cars got more efficient, but there are more cars. In Texas many old unproducing wells are slowly filling back up with oil. Also, I just read and article that said the UN lied about the world's climate increasing, when for 15 years it remained the same. They also said years ago that much of Florida and low lieing areas would be flooded by now. 20 years ago Al Gore said the poles would be melted by now. All of what they said hasn't happened.

I think one of the biggest problems since 1960 has been the transition from glass and canned containers to plastics. I collected soft drink bottles to sell back to the local grocery store for a penny a bottle, later 2 cents a bottle. Then they went to aluminum cans and plastic bottles. I also remember growing up with glass mayonnaise, mustard, and ketchup bottles. My grandmother used mustard jars for canning jellies. They reused the glass containers for fruits and vegetables you could water bath or make into pickled things. They used used ketchup bottles for peppers. Nothing was wasted. Cans could be recycled or put to other uses. Not anywhere near as much waste as today. Living in the country, no one had to deal with trash. Paper trash was burned. Glass and metal were recycled into other usable things or taken to a metal or glass recycling center. No one used throw away diapers either, they used cloth diapers and washed them.

I do agree that uneducated 3rd world people flooding 1st world countries will be a huge problem in the future if there is not enough time for them to assimilate and learn the the first world skills. I do see a lot of Hispanic labor in my area doing house framing, masonry work, and sheet rock work. As time goes on, the older homes in my area are torn down and new homes are being built. New homes are more efficient and use far less energy than the older homes. This is improving the standard of living.

Forests in my state are constantly being cut for wood and paper product production. They are always replanted. Southern pines mature in 20 years. So they are constantly being cut and replanted. Lumber is made and the scrap sawdust is made into press board or wafer board. The bark is stripped and used for mulch, or they burn it to dry the lumber. Very efficient, these new sawmills. My hometown has a metal recycling center. If an older home is torn down, the piping and wiring are stripped out and taken to the recycling center. Bricks are sometimes recycled, even the old wood in the home, even windows and doors. Very little is wasted. My uncle built a cabin on a lake from getting recycled wood from an old wooden school that was torn down. He made a lot of trips in his pickup truck. After work every day and on weekends.

It is not all gloom and doom, just changing time. However, we do need to get immigration under control, the federal budget under control, otherwise we will have banking problems and too many people in poverty to deal with. Economic growth for 200 years has been faster than the population growth. Population growth does not equal economic growth.
Those are the billy goats in the room. The elephants involve limits to growth.

Economic growth meets and requires population growth as population aging doesn't work well.
 

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We have a winner ^ the constant growth mindset is terrible, I don't want to turn every forest into a walmart because (muh eCoNoMy) (muh GrOwTh). Also replacing first world populations with third world populations for growth has serious innumerable consequences. Anyone who's intellectually honest and has critical thinking can see what's going on and how it's going to play out.
Constant growth is the premise of modern capitalism and industrialization.

The same requires also constant population increase.

Given intellectual honesty and critical thinking, one can argue that modern capitalism isn't sustainable because of limits to growth and environmental disaster. Hence, preppers and survivalists.

Most people, OTOH, argue that everything will be fine given gamechangers.
 
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