[ralfy]

Thanks for the explanations, you explained it better than Wiki LOL what do you do for a living? Economist?
(serious not being sarcastic)

It would seem (ducking...) that maybe that one world currency nobody wants is indeed the only solution. But then you would have to agree on how much debt a country can have, or you run into problems like Greece in the EU. Either way you turn it, it's not really fixable. Probably why I can't think of any solutions, because there is none....

Just took a few units like others; I eventually pick up things on the 'net. For example, people have been blaming wokes and Trump for what happened to SVB, but one writer pointed out that the bank bought bonds for investment. The gov't increased interest rates to soak up money and minimize inflation. That caused the bond prices to drop because their interest rates aren't high to start with. Depositors start withdrawing more funds to save their businesses, so the bank's forced to sell their bonds at lower prices and cover the difference by selling off their other assets. That's when the bloodbath began.

I suspect that would have happened no matter who was President and regardless or what wokes did.

Another argued that the bank should have known how to hedge properly, and used a variety of investments to use gains from some to cover losses from others. But at the end of the day, it's just gambling with financial instruments, and if all of them start falling apart, hedging becomes pointless, except for what survivalists and preppers do, which is to invest in skills and basic resources and get ready when everything else vaporizes.

Also, the implication is that a system that's ultimately dependent on increasing credit constantly in anticipation of constant increases in energy use and extraction of material resources won't last in a limited biosphere.

 

[Vinegar Joe]

The world really needs to get back to the gold standard. Each currency can fluctuate based on the value of gold, not one individual currency. When the US used the gold standard, in 1800, 1 ounce of gold or a US $20 bill backed by gold could buy you two suits of clothes. In 1900, the same 1 ounce of gold or a $20 bill backed by gold could still buy you two suits of clothes. In 2000 after forming the Federal Reserve in 1912 and getting off the gold standard, 1 ounce of gold could still buy you two suits of clothes, but a US $20 bill could only buy you the socks. So the gold standard kept things stable for over 100 years from 1790 to 1912. Going to fiat currency caused high inflation and excess government spending. 1 ounce of gold today is worth around $2,000, thus cashed in can buy you two suits of clothes. Gold remained stable. The dollar did not. This is why a lot of preppers buy gold and silver. They remain stable, but the dollar goes down in value, not the gold going up in value. Right now silver may be the best value. Electric cars use about 2 ounces of silver, more than gasoline cars. Silver right now is about $20 an ounce. It could go to $70 according to one source.

Anyway, going to the gold standard would stabilize the dollar IF the US had enough gold. The US has about 8,100 tons of gold. That is 259,200,000 ounces. At $2,000 per ounce only equals $518 billion dollars. Not enough to currently back up the current amount of currency in circulation. The government quit storing gold once fiat currency took off when Nixon decoupled the dollar from gold value in 1971 when he got us off the gold standard. This is another elephant that caused high inflation to begin.

America is being stampeded with a lot of elephants not being addressed. Congress has always kicked the can down the road, just like they did with slavery that ended in Civil War. Same thing is happening today. They not only are not addressing illegals, but AI standards, trade, China, reasonable energy transition, excess government spending. The list is long. Engineering wise, nothing is impossible to do, change, grow, etc. Government will never change human relations, and should stay out of that area. Carrots work better than sticks. Can't force, by law, people to change, but can by tax breaks and tax cuts, not laws and mandates.

Dixie,

The Wilson administration's objective was "elastic money". They established the foundation for this.

Believe the benchmark date for Fed Reserve System is Dec 1913. The US stilll on gold in 1914. It was Bretton Woods, 1944 which etablished US using both gold and the USD.

It was the Nixon administration that terminated the connection of USD to gold. Nixon got the blame for this but it was caused by LBJ/s deficit financing of Vietnam War and the followon deficit financing of the "Great Society". LBJ introduced permanent deficit financing.

Again; the objective was not to use some medium / store of value but rather to get well established with elestic money - at least for the domestic US economy.

The US still stores gold bullion, NY Fed in Manhattan has more gold than Ft Knox as per what's reported.

Ou.r inflation only indirectly related to gold. Some countries do not maintain gold but have near zero inflation. These places just peg their paper money to a FOXEX that is stable or gold and not run programs that temp their politicians to leave the "peg" (sometimes a "narrow 'band'").

Congress did indeed know what they were doing in 1850 onward. Congress merely lost the political fight over the more powerful regionalism.

The "illegals" are de facto legal. Also being addressed is China and the other mentioned matters. Remember President Wilson lost his "open diplomacy" . Much of everything today is kept far away from the public.

 

[Dixie_Dude]

Right now the bond market is about the crash. Why? Because the government issues bonds to borrow money to make up for spending more than they collect in taxes. If the bond market fails, the banks have a lot of bonds, US bonds, and they have to have the money back from the government to keep them from failing. Excess government spending. China has over $1 trillion in US bond debt. Is our government going to collapse because they can't pay back these bonds on time?

 

[HealersHerbs]

Just another way to look at it from someone who's about to be drawing Social Security. I have an arrangement with a younger friend that I will contribute part of my Social Security payment to her household in return for assistance with things I can no longer physically handle. She, in return, benefits by my years of hard work, contriving and managing every aspect of life. There's an extra pair of hands so the house isn't empty during the day. I can make grocery lists, feed the cats, turn on the washer or heat up some soup for her. I can dust or do other light household chores. I can be a companion to her when she needs to vent, and she can benefit from my older and (hopefully) wiser perspective on things that keep younger people awake at night. There's no free ride, but the input I'm expected to give will be in line with my abilities.

Someone like the OP's grandmother who is capable of watching 16 hours of television a day is also capable of watching children while they do homework, folding towels, answering phone calls or emails, and a myriad of other tasks that could allow them to contribute to the family group. There's a reason why the Bible says people who won't work shouldn't eat. Not being catered to is a powerful incentive to get off one's butt. We older people hustle slower, but we can still put it in gear.

Of course people who are mentally or medically fragile shouldn't be overtasked, but almost everyone can find some tasks that make life easier for the others they live with -- even if that's limited to telling stories to keep children entertained, offering advice from their own experience, or being the encouraging voice after a hard day.

I think the problem is less that the economy is overstrained than that, as many pointed out, the expectation of my generation for too many was that retirement was a permanent vacation from responsibility rather than adapting to changed abilities and carrying on with life. Don't underestimate the value of a supportive person with a lot of life experience just because you think they're an economic liability -- instead, insist that they do what they're capable of. I think a lot of us would have a more satisfying retirement that way than just sitting around consuming media and resources, all the while knowing their family was waiting eagerly for them to die.

 

[Vinegar Joe]

Right now the bond market is about the crash. Why? Because the government issues bonds to borrow money to make up for spending more than they collect in taxes. If the bond market fails, the banks have a lot of bonds, US bonds, and they have to have the money back from the government to keep them from failing. Excess government spending. China has over $1 trillion in US bond debt. Is our government going to collapse because they can't pay back these bonds on time?

Dixie,

In reply;

No, I do not believe USG going to collapse.

Actual debt ... not the related "unfunded liabilities" ... will be paid.

This prevention of collapse is going to occur, IMO, by liquidating assets of various sorts.

It is actually not future tense but also current tense ...... going on right now.

......

Appreciate you recognizing China has > $1 Trillion in US bond debt. Most have little idea what we're talking about.

 

[jandlms]

As of February 2023, China had less than 4% of the US debt. Not really a major player in terms of US debt any more. They have been divesting themselves for years.

 

[Vinegar Joe]

As of February 2023, China had less than 4% of the US debt. Not really a major player in terms of US debt any more. They have been divesting themselves for years.

Jan,

Nominees are used as part of the divesture.

 

[sonya1]

The world really needs to get back to the gold standard. Each currency can fluctuate based on the value of gold, not one individual currency. When the US used the gold standard, in 1800, 1 ounce of gold or a US $20 bill backed by gold could buy you two suits of clothes.

America is being stampeded with a lot of elephants not being addressed. Congress has always kicked the can down the road, just like they did with slavery that ended in Civil War. Same thing is happening today. They not only are not addressing illegals, but AI standards, trade, China, reasonable energy transition, excess government spending. The list is long. Engineering wise, nothing is impossible to do, change, grow, etc. Government will never change human relations, and should stay out of that area. Carrots work better than sticks. Can't force, by law, people to change, but can by tax breaks and tax cuts, not laws and mandates.

There is not enough gold for the current population and currency in circulation. Do you have any idea how much the population has grown in the last 100 years? Gold is not practical. But what you are proposing would be same as the one world currency. It really doesn't matter if you have gold, or something else. Any currency only has value because people believe it has value.

But yes our government tries to kick the can down the road as far as they can so THEY don't have to deal with it. But it will make things so much worse when "someone" at some point will have to deal with it. Tax breaks and cuts only go so far. None have ever made me personally do anything I didn't want to do ( like have 10 kids, or buy a more expensive house so I can subtract the mortgage or whatever). I am sure there are many other people like me that also won't fall for that. Everything in the US tax laws is geared towards causing more consumption, going into more debt and being a slave to the system. No thanks.

 

[sonya1]

Someone like the OP's grandmother who is capable of watching 16 hours of television a day is also capable of watching children while they do homework, folding towels, answering phone calls or emails, and a myriad of other tasks that could allow them to contribute to the family group.

Um....I am the OP.....and both of my grandmothers have died a long time ago.....

My only old relative is my dad ( he's over 80) and he worked running his business until his late 70s when he couldn't do it anymore because of health reasons

The problem is people like my father in law ( he is dead and gone also now). He retired from the Federal government at age 55 , got cancer right after and the system kept him alive and sitting on the couch until 91. So over 30 years of doing literally nothing and costing the system a small fortune. He had a suitcase full of pills and made weekly doctor visits and spent many times in the hospital where we were all thinking this was it, and made the trip to see him one last time, but he survived and went back home. I am not saying he was a terrible person or anything ( he was pretty nice actually) but this is a perfect example of why this is not financially possible to continue.

 

[sonya1]

Also, the implication is that a system that's ultimately dependent on increasing credit constantly in anticipation of constant increases in energy use and extraction of material resources won't last in a limited biosphere.

Yep, can't be repeated enough since nobody wants to believe it or think about it....

National Debt by Country / Countries with the Highest National Debt 2023 (worldpopulationreview.com)

this is interesting also

 

[Dixie_Dude]

You can still have a gold standard. Freeze the money at it's current value of gold. Then, don't print any more until more gold is put in reserve. This is the way it was done after Bretton Woods. A twist to things is if the dollar is worth less and foreign made goods cost more, then it becomes cheaper to make our own. Tesla and SpaceX have proven you can make things in the US using robotics and 3d printed parts. SpaceX now dominates the launch market. Over half the satellites in orbit now belong to SpaceX. SpaceX currently launches 3/4 of the tonnage of satellites and spacecraft into space at a lower cost than anyone. They reuse their rockets, so far over 100 times successfully and landed them for launch again. They provide rides for our astronauts, have launched private payers into space, even launch competitors satellites, supplies to and from the space station, building the Starlink constellation for internet anywhere in the world, and is now building the most powerful rocket ever built in Boca Chica, Texas. They are currently waiting on FAA approval to launch, probably 1st week in April now. This is what Musk wants to use to colonize Mars. Anyway, Tesla is the most American made vehicle now with almost all parts American made. The existing space industry in 2010 (Boeing and Lockheed) said reusing a rocket was hard and would cost too much. SpaceX did it, they never gave up. GM said it cost too much to make an electric car and gave up in the late 1990's. Tesla pushed and got several versions made and even set up charging stations nationwide. One is about 3 miles from my house, near a lot of restaurants and a hotel. So making things in the US can be done. Importing too many low skilled workers is not good and drives down wages.

 

[sonya1]

You can still have a gold standard. Freeze the money at it's current value of gold. Then, don't print any more until more gold is put in reserve.

$ 1928 per oz today , 16 oz per pound= 30848 per pound of gold

Debt ( it goes up very fast, this was the number when I looked it up)
31 617 350 575 691
so you would need
1 024 940 047 pounds of gold..and it goes up daily

I am not sure there is that much gold on the entire planet....lol

You were doing fairly good in the last couple of days replying with things that made some sense, but now we seem to be back with a wall of text pie in the sky stuff....

 

[Dixie_Dude]

If 1 oz of gold is worth $2000, freeze the value and don't print any more money until more gold is put in reserve. This would stop inflation, but the government would still be in $30 trillion debt, with no means to pay it back short of drastic cuts in spending or drastic tax increases.

 

[sonya1]

If 1 oz of gold is worth $2000, freeze the value and don't print any more money until more gold is put in reserve. This would stop inflation, but the government would still be in $30 trillion debt, with no means to pay it back short of drastic cuts in spending or drastic tax increases.

You obviously didn't read, or didn't understand what I posted. There is not enough gold on the planet.
Do the math yourself if you can't understand mine....

that's besides the point that other countries own some of it. How would you get that gold, create even more $$ in debt to buy it from India ?

 

[Dixie_Dude]

Well, you didn't read or understand that freezing the amount of money AND gold to fix the price. Don't print anymore money unless it is backed by gold. There is more gold out there. We have an area where they were digging gold near me back in 1848. When gold was found in California they left this area and went to California. There is probably still some gold around. Also, there is platinum that is about = in value to gold and could also be stored and used. Right now it is only used in catalytic converters. Gold is still mined in South Africa and below ground estimates according to BBC news is about 50,000 tons.

Biggest thing is regardless is the government has to stop spending more than they get in taxes, otherwise they borrow money by issuing bonds, mostly to banks now. Some countries like China, Japan, and England have about $1 billion each in US bonds. Interest alone on these bonds is approaching 20% of the Federal budget. Way to high, maybe more by now.

The US from the start of our country until 1912 or 1913 when they started the Federal Reserve only printed money if they had gold to back it up. Thus prices remained stable and low for around 140 years. Starting Fiat currency started inflation. They raised one ounce of gold from $20 to around $35 by the 1930's. Then with WWII, cold war, Korea, Vietnam, Welfare spending, etc, etc, it drove prices up because the government started spending more money than they had revenue for. Slowly at first, then recently boom, especially with Covid.

 

[Vinegar Joe]

Well, you didn't read or understand that freezing the amount of money AND gold to fix the price. Don't print anymore money unless it is backed by gold. There is more gold out there. We have an area where they were digging gold near me back in 1848. When gold was found in California they left this area and went to California. There is probably still some gold around. Also, there is platinum that is about = in value to gold and could also be stored and used. Right now it is only used in catalytic converters. Gold is still mined in South Africa and below ground estimates according to BBC news is about 50,000 tons.

Biggest thing is regardless is the government has to stop spending more than they get in taxes, otherwise they borrow money by issuing bonds, mostly to banks now. Some countries like China, Japan, and England have about $1 billion each in US bonds. Interest alone on these bonds is approaching 20% of the Federal budget. Way to high, maybe more by now.

The US from the start of our country until 1912 or 1913 when they started the Federal Reserve only printed money if they had gold to back it up. Thus prices remained stable and low for around 140 years. Starting Fiat currency started inflation. They raised one ounce of gold from $20 to around $35 by the 1930's. Then with WWII, cold war, Korea, Vietnam, Welfare spending, etc, etc, it drove prices up because the government started spending more money than they had revenue for. Slowly at first, then recently boom, especially with Covid.

Dixie,

There's trace amounts of gold in seawater.

The joke here is we can all share some of this gold from what we collect after distilling some seawater.

I'm sure this is a taxable event !

 

[ralfy]

Right now the bond market is about the crash. Why? Because the government issues bonds to borrow money to make up for spending more than they collect in taxes. If the bond market fails, the banks have a lot of bonds, US bonds, and they have to have the money back from the government to keep them from failing. Excess government spending. China has over $1 trillion in US bond debt. Is our government going to collapse because they can't pay back these bonds on time?

It's not just the government but the country itself:

Krugman and the Pied Pipers of Debt

Investors are celebrating an incipient “recovery,” but the interventions that were responsible for it are sowing the seeds of a more violent contraction down the road.

seekingalpha.com

And all that involves only funny money, or the equivalent of a billy goat. Compared to elephants in the room, financial collapse will look like child's play.

 

[ralfy]

Well, you didn't read or understand that freezing the amount of money AND gold to fix the price. Don't print anymore money unless it is backed by gold. There is more gold out there. We have an area where they were digging gold near me back in 1848. When gold was found in California they left this area and went to California. There is probably still some gold around. Also, there is platinum that is about = in value to gold and could also be stored and used. Right now it is only used in catalytic converters. Gold is still mined in South Africa and below ground estimates according to BBC news is about 50,000 tons.

Biggest thing is regardless is the government has to stop spending more than they get in taxes, otherwise they borrow money by issuing bonds, mostly to banks now. Some countries like China, Japan, and England have about $1 billion each in US bonds. Interest alone on these bonds is approaching 20% of the Federal budget. Way to high, maybe more by now.

The US from the start of our country until 1912 or 1913 when they started the Federal Reserve only printed money if they had gold to back it up. Thus prices remained stable and low for around 140 years. Starting Fiat currency started inflation. They raised one ounce of gold from $20 to around $35 by the 1930's. Then with WWII, cold war, Korea, Vietnam, Welfare spending, etc, etc, it drove prices up because the government started spending more money than they had revenue for. Slowly at first, then recently boom, especially with Covid.

A global capital economy doesn't work that way: it needs continuous growth, which means continuously increasing credit.

On top of that, the middle class is keen on earning from investments, which means even more credit needed.

Finally, these are all essentially numbers in hard drives. Work on the elephants in the room.

 

[sonya1]

Well, you didn't read or understand that freezing the amount of money AND gold to fix the price. Don't print anymore money unless it is backed by gold. There is more gold out there. We have an area where they were digging gold near me back in 1848.

🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

Yes, Dixie, you go right ahead and dig a billion some pounds of gold out of the ground.....
This discussion is starting to get somewhat ridiculous
Next someone will suggest we go dig up that gold on Mars...with Musks space ships...

 

[Dixie_Dude]

Yes, gold is not exactly finite, neither is the economy as some on the left think. The economy can grow. Trump proved this with getting rid of a lot of regulation and lowering taxes, as well as refinancing the government debt at a lower interest rate. More people went to work and the economy had the lowest unemployment since WWII and was on par with his second administration, if he won, and covid not happened, to balance the budget. He knew how to run an economy.

Reagan also proved the economy could grow with again, tax cuts and deregulation. Kennedy also did it in the early 1960's.

As inflation grows, it puts everyone eventually into higher tax brackets and they pay more in taxes. Cutting taxes gets it back to where inflation doesn't bother people as much and they have more spending power. In the last 200 years, the economy of the western world grew faster than the population of the world. We had more people and the standard of living rose faster. Each generation was better off than the preceding generation. The left thinks the economy is finite and that the "pie" is limited thus the idea of taxing the rich more and giving it to the poor. The poor are poor because they don't want to work harder, get better educated, or just plain lazy. If you have good ideas, work hard to achieve them, it normally will pan out if the economy is not messed with by the government. Gloom and doom can only happen if people give up and don't work to stop it. We don't have to go to socialism or communism to make everyone equally miserable. Even communist China had to adapt capitalism to grow their economy and standard of living. So has eastern Europe.

We may have turbulent times now, but we are in the transition stage from fossil fuels to solar, wind, tidal, geothermal, and more nuclear power sources. Also in a transition to alternative transportation. There are growing pains. However, we must have fossil fuels now until the complete transition takes place. It is not going to happen overnight.

Closing the border is needed or we will become a Hispanic nation. If we have a worker shortage, inovation, instead of invasion will use robotics, 3d printing, etc to keep the economy going. You are beginning to see this in the fast food industry. In some places you order from a terminal, pay for it, and then pick up your order. Even robots are being tested in Japan for hamburger assembly. This cuts one or two workers. Manufacturing has become highly automated also. Japan is not being invaded and their population is decreasing, so they are using more robotics. This can happen here, especially if minimum wages are raised too high.
There should be limits on immigration, only what America needs, not leaches, but people who can actually work and pay their own way. Another is learning English before becoming a citizen, as well as learning our constitution.