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Shield Up Sword Drawn
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I started this in someone else's thread and realized I was hijacking so I am moving it into its own.

I want to give credit to Canyon Cat for her post that inspired this.

I am not an expert on the constitution. I have been a big fan for as long as I can remember and have put considerable time, effort and argument in and over it. If I am mistaken please feel free to correct me.

Here is what I posted yesterday:

I think most people are afraid to understand the constitution or embarrassed that they don't.

I think the main things that would help people that do not know the constitution are:

• It is the instruction manual for the federal government

• Our rights are not given to us by the constitution or the government. They are ours at birth.

• If it doesn't give the federal government the right to do something then it is the individual states obligation to handle. If they do not then it goes to the people.

So when you are reading the constitution, you are reading a firm document that is the instructions for the federal government. If the federal government is doing something that is not in the document then the federal government is subverting the constitution.

All politicians, when they take office swear to uphold and defend the constitution. If your congressmen or senators do not follow the constitution they are committing a criminal act because the constitution is the supreme law of the land.

When you read it you will realize just how limited the federal government is supposed to be. The reason for that is at the state level where most of the law making is supposed to take place we the people have a strong voice. If 50 thousand people protest in a state that makes a huge impact. If 50 thousand people protest the white house they do not even notice.

By subverting the constitution the federal government has gained great powers illegally.

Enjoy the read. It is a short read. But you will need to read it more then one time. When my son was young the week leading up to independence day was all about the founding of our country and the constitution. The schools certainly didn't teach it. Most likely your children have no idea. It will totally change the way you think and you will understand just how smart the founding fathers were.
 

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Shield Up Sword Drawn
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Discussion Starter #2
Today I would like to address the link between the Supreme Court and the constitution.

I am going to try and keep this easy to understand. I had to read the original documents 10 times before I could fully understand what was being said. They made it difficult for a purpose.

In 1789 the case Marshall v. Marbury determined through its issues that the Supreme Court was to judge a bill for its constitutionality. This means the bill must conform to the constitution, since the constitution is the supreme law of the land and was designed to protect our rights, this makes sense. The constitution stood strong so bills conformed to the constitution or were rejected.

In 1958 the case Cooper v. Aaron switched the rolls. The case, through its issues determined that the Supreme Court has the right to interpret the constitution which would conform the constitution to the bills that were being pushed. This was the turning point when our constitution was subverted by the Supreme Court that was supposed to protect it.

This vastly expanded the ability for the federal government to pass bills or acts that were and are not constitutional.

The reason I post this information today is as you learn about the constitution one of the questions you will ask yourself is “how can these seemingly unconstitutional laws be passed when the Supreme Court is watching?”

Think about that. The Supreme Court gave the Supreme Court the power to interpret the constitution. This made them more important then the constitution. They basically appointed themselves king of our country.

The founding fathers were very clear in all their papers that the constitution was not a living document and was not to be interpreted. They were aware that changes may need to be made so in the constitution they wrote that the constitution could be amended. Never did they say that it could or should be interpreted.

So when you read the first amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The Supreme Court has no right to give approval to laws or acts passed by congress that would subvert any piece of the amendment.

The normal argument you will hear in regard to free speech is “you can’t yell Fire in a theater. A very important part of freedom to remember is your freedom stops where someone else’s starts. The people in the theater have the right to be at peace and watch the play. You yelling "Fire" is disruptive and puts them in danger. Yelling fire violates their rights. Therefore your rights stopped where theirs began.

It really is a beautiful system.

The more you know about your rights the more the government will be forced to give them back to us.

If you think about it, in the 1950’s everything was going well and the people were content. It was a good time for the Supreme Court to give themselves the power to interpret the constitution. They took advantage of the peoples passivity of the time.

Never let your guard down when it comes to your constitutional rights. If you do they will them from you.
 

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...I think most people are afraid to understand the constitution or embarrassed that they don't.
I don't think that is it, they just don't care. They will come up with a ton of excuses why they "don't have time to read the stupid old Constitution, Bill of Rights, or Declaration of Independence." I have actually had people tell me that. They are too busy with their sports, shopping, looking cool at the bar, and any other time wasting endeavor to fill them mind with what they believe is important in life.

One of the most used excuses I'm told when I bring up government corruption and taking action against it, is that people use the old "I've got a family to take care of."
 

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I keep reading the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence.
I realized that no matter how many times I read them, I still learn more each time.
I think these documents and what they mean should be taught in every school.
It is vital that every citizen understand the rights they have, so they can recognize when they are being subverted or infringed.
 

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I keep reading the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence.
I realized that no matter how many times I read them, I still learn more each time.
I think these documents and what they mean should be taught in every school.
It is vital that every citizen understand the rights they have, so they can recognize when they are being subverted or infringed.
No doubt. I have a stash of Citizens handbooks that I carry with me that I can handout to people. Most refuse to take them, even though I tell them it's just the founding documents of this country.
 

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Wild Edibles Expert
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Let me guess... the US Constitution was not written by the Founding Fathers but instead is a contrived document by "them" the real people who have been controlling the world and caused the Civil War, WWI and WWII and 9/11 and wanted Bush in the white house and are now manipulating the economy...
 

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BowHunter
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Let me guess... the US Constitution was not written by the Founding Fathers but instead is a contrived document by "them" the real people who have been controlling the world and caused the Civil War, WWI and WWII and 9/11 and wanted Bush in the white house and are now manipulating the economy...
And an enormous "POP" was heard when SR pulled his head from his ass and realized no one had said any such thing :D::rolleyes:
 

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Shield Up Sword Drawn
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Discussion Starter #8
Let me guess... the US Constitution was not written by the Founding Fathers but instead is a contrived document by "them" the real people who have been controlling the world and caused the Civil War, WWI and WWII and 9/11 and wanted Bush in the white house and are now manipulating the economy...
No, if at all possible I would like to keep this on the constitution. Not on any one or thing that would be perceived to subvert it.
 

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AFDQ
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"In questions of power then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution." - Thomas Jefferson

"On every question of construction of the Constitution, let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." – Thomas Jefferson
 

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Semper non compos mentis
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Know your Constitution?

I keep reading the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence.
I realized that no matter how many times I read them, I still learn more each time.
I think these documents and what they mean should be taught in every school.
It is vital that every citizen understand the rights they have, so they can recognize when they are being subverted or infringed.
Thanks for this thread, I just realised that I was never taught much in school about our Constitution (Australian) either. We all know it's there, and roughly what it does, as an Act of Parliament. We generally know that it's a roadmap for the government of our nation, that it's not a document set in stone, but one that is only changed after much debate and consideration. But more than that .... I guess I admit to glaring ignorance.

I just took the easy step of downloading a copy of our Constitution in pdf form to read at my leisure. Again, thanks for provoking the thought. :thumb:
 

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Shield Up Sword Drawn
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Discussion Starter #14
Today I would like to address how a bill becomes a law.

This is a basic thing but it is essential to understand as it applies to our freedom and the constitution.

Each state has congressman and senators. These people are elected to represent us in congress. Congressman write bills they want passed to the floor of the house or representatives.

I am going to use border security as an example.

The people in Texas have a problem with illegal border crossings. They want a fence put up or security personnel along the border or military bases placed along the border to end the problem.

A congressman from Texas decides that putting more security personnel along the border is the best option. He writes a bill requesting this additional personnel to become law and introduces it to the house. This bill is looked at and scrutinized to see if it is worth the time and effort to put forth for a vote. Since it has to do with protecting our country it should swiftly move on the agenda for review by all of the house. The Texas congressman then introduces his bill to the house floor. The congressmen then debate its merits. One of the most important merits is will it be constitutional, does it interfere with anyone’s rights? Is it realistic as to affordability? Can it actually be accomplished?...

A side note:
This is where the lobbyists come into play. These people for their own or companies gain will go from congressman to congressman trying to gain their support for the bill. Some are offered gifts to sway their votes. This is almost never in the best interest of the people.


Once it is debated then it is voted on by a yea or nay vote. If more vote yea then nay the bill is adopted and sent to the senate.

This is the second check and balance the first being the house review, debate and vote.

The senate debates the bill then reviews and votes on the bill by a yea or nay vote. Again if more vote yea then it is adopted by the senate and moves to the president for signing.

Side note:
This is another area of attempt by the lobbyists.

This is the third safeguard. This is the president’s job. He does not get to write any laws or acts. He is the last fail safe in the checks and balance system of our constitution. If the president signs the bill it becomes a law.

If a bill passes through the congress, senate and president and is found to be unconstitutional then it is reviewed by the Supreme Court. If the bill/law does not work within the restraints of the constitution they deem it unconstitutional and the law is overturned.

That is it. Our federal government is very limited in what it can do. If it does not specifically say it in the constitution it can’t do it. The president has the smallest roll in government most of the time. All he does is give final approval by signing a bill into law.

When you see the federal government involved in health care for example, it is subverting the constitution. Congress should have stopped the bill at its beginning stages. When a health care bill gets to the president and it is signed into law, everyone involved has subverted the constitution which they all have sworn to uphold and defend.

It is important to note that the president does not get to declare war or write his own bills. He can't ban guns or create acts like the Patriot Act. All of that is started and moved by the congress then senate. The presidents only job is to sign bills into law or not and command our military forces once the house and senate have approved a declaration of war.

I hope this makes sense to everyone. Feel free to ask questions or correct me.
 

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Slowrid-Der, I must correct you as you have asked. The Constitution is no longer valid. George Bush and his administration are our new masters, hail to them. The Exalted One can declare war when it suits his whim, wiretap us for no other reason than his own paranoia, or simply dissapear us to Gitmo or somewhere like it. Hail to him. The supreme commander can give all our money to his friends in industry if he chooses to. He is our master. Hail to him. War is peace. Ignorance is strength. Please cease your unpatriotic posts or I will be forced to turn you over to the Ministry of Love for re-training.
 

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Slowrid-Der, I must correct you as you have asked. The Constitution is no longer valid. George Bush and his administration are our new masters, hail to them. The Exalted One can declare war when it suits his whim, wiretap us for no other reason than his own paranoia, or simply dissapear us to Gitmo or somewhere like it. Hail to him. The supreme commander can give all our money to his friends in industry if he chooses to. He is our master. Hail to him. War is peace. Ignorance is strength. Please cease your unpatriotic posts or I will be forced to turn you over to the Ministry of Love for re-training.
Please allow me a few small corrections.

The Constitution was assaulted for the first time by President George Washington when he used Federal troops against citizens after the Revolution when they refused to pay taxes on the whiskey they produced. It was called the whiskey rebellion.

The Constitution was actually attacked seondly by the SCOTUS when the made themselves arbiters of what the Constitution means (see the previous post by Slowrid-er on SCOTUS)

Over the years, we as a people have stood by and watched administration after administration encroach like the teen aged boy telling his girlfriend; "I'll only stick it in a little bit."

Wilson with the Income Tax; Roosevelt with his alphabet soup of Federal agencies, Kennedy's expansion of the Viet Nam war, Johnsons continuation of Roosevelts major Federal expansion, Nixon's wage and price controls all as precursors to GW Bush's current encroachments.

Karl Marx, in his Communist Manifesto outlined 10 rules for overcoming a Republic:
1. Abolition of private property and the application of all rents of land to public purposes.
Americans do these with actions such as the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868), and various zoning, school & property taxes. Also the Bureau of Land Management (Zoning laws are the first step to government property ownership)

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Americans know this as misapplication of the 16th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 1913, The Social Security Act of 1936.; Joint House Resolution 192 of 1933; and various State "income" taxes. We call it "paying your fair share".

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
Americans call it Federal & State estate Tax (1916); or reformed Probate Laws, and limited inheritance via arbitrary inheritance tax statutes.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Americans call it government seizures, tax liens, Public "law" 99-570 (1986); Executive order 11490, sections 1205, 2002 which gives private land to the Department of Urban Development; the imprisonment of "terrorists" and those who speak out or write against the "government" (1997 Crime/Terrorist Bill); or the IRS confiscation of property without due process. Asset forfeiture laws are used by DEA, IRS, ATF etc...).

5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
Americans call it the Federal Reserve which is a privately-owned credit/debt system allowed by the Federal Reserve act of 1913. All local banks are members of the Fed system, and are regulated by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) another privately-owned corporation. The Federal Reserve Banks issue Fiat Paper Money and practice economically destructive fractional reserve banking.

6. Centralization of the means of communications and transportation in the hands of the State.
Americans call it the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) and Department of Transportation (DOT) mandated through the ICC act of 1887, the Commissions Act of 1934, The Interstate Commerce Commission established in 1938, The Federal Aviation Administration, Federal Communications Commission, and Executive orders 11490, 10999, as well as State mandated driver's licenses and Department of Transportation regulations.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state, the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
Americans call it corporate capacity, The Desert Entry Act and The Department of Agriculture… Thus read "controlled or subsidized" rather than "owned"… This is easily seen in these as well as the Department of Commerce and Labor, Department of Interior, the Environmental Protection Agency, Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Reclamation, Bureau of Mines, National Park Service, and the IRS control of business through corporate regulations.

8. Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
Americans call it Minimum Wage and slave labor like dealing with our Most Favored Nation trade partner; i.e. Communist China. We see it in practice via the Social Security Administration and The Department of Labor. The National debt and inflation caused by the communal bank has caused the need for a two "income" family. Woman in the workplace since the 1920's, the 19th amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, assorted Socialist Unions, affirmative action, the Federal Public Works Program and of course Executive order 11000.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries, gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of population over the country.
Americans call it the Planning Reorganization act of 1949 , zoning (Title 17 1910-1990) and Super Corporate Farms, as well as Executive orders 11647, 11731 (ten regions) and Public "law" 89-136. These provide for forced relocations and forced sterilization programs, like in China.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.
Americans are being taxed to support what we call 'public' schools, but are actually "government force-tax-funded schools " Even private schools are government regulated. The purpose is to train the young to work for the communal debt system. We also call it the Department of Education, the NEA and Outcome Based "Education" . These are used so that all children can be indoctrinated and inculcated with the government propaganda, like "majority rules", and "pay your fair share". WHERE are the words "fair share" in the Constitution, Bill of Rights or the Internal Revenue Code (Title 26)?? NO WHERE is "fair share" even suggested !! The philosophical concept of "fair share" comes from the Communist maxim, "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need! This concept is pure socialism. ... America was made the greatest society by its private initiative WORK ETHIC ... Teaching ourselves and others how to "fish" to be self sufficient and produce plenty of EXTRA commodities to if so desired could be shared with others who might be "needy"... Americans have always voluntarily been the MOST generous and charitable society on the planet.

Do changing words, change the end result? ... By using different words, is it all of a sudden OK to ignore or violate the provisions or intent of the Constitution of the united States of America?????

The people (politicians) who believe in the SOCIALISTIC and COMMUNISTIC concepts, especially those who pass more and more laws implementing these slavery ideas, are traitors to their oath of office and to the Constitution of the united States of America.

The current crop of candidates, ON BOTH SIDES, are a continuation of the slippery slope. One is an obvious Socialist operative, the other less so, but if elected will need to be watched like a hawk.

Either way, there is more than enough "blame" to go around besides just dumping on GWB. The best advice comes from another member of this board... be alert and keep your weapons loaded and ready.
 

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Point taken tort, as I hope my post was taken in the spirit it was intended which was humor. I understand what you said and I agree. GWB is just one of the most glaring and therefore easy examples for me to use.
 

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Destroyer of Ignorance
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I agree with your sentiment, but there are a few points I'm unclear about in your post. When you spoke of the Whiskey Rebellion, were you saying Washington violated "posse comitatus"? I hope not as it didn't exist until after the civil war. If you were speaking of the mere fact that Washington allowed the tax to be levied, I don't see the problem. The Constitution gives Congress the power to levy an excise tax so long as it is applied uniformly throughout the States. The real issue was that it was not applied uniformly among the distillers.

The first real example of a President over stepping the bounds of the Constitution was Lincoln. He shut down newspapers, spied on reporters, jailed reporters, etc. All in the name of fighting a war (Where have I heard that before ... Hmmmmmm)

I would agree that it was Woodrow Wilson who was the first President to blatantly place both feet outside the lines of the Constitution. That guy violated nearly every aspect of "Freedom". You had the Federal Income Tax Act, The Federal Reserve Act, The Harrison Tax Act ... not to mention his war on free speech. Wilson's presidency should be seen as a manual on what not to do. The worst part is that, on his death bed, he said he feared he had ruined a once great nation. That should tell you that he knew what he was doing was wrong even when he did it.

Trust me, I'm waiting for the second revolution.
 

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Shield Up Sword Drawn
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Discussion Starter #20
Please allow me a few small corrections.

The Constitution was assaulted for the first time by President George Washington when he used Federal troops against citizens after the Revolution when they refused to pay taxes on the whiskey they produced. It was called the whiskey rebellion.

The Constitution was actually attacked seondly by the SCOTUS when the made themselves arbiters of what the Constitution means (see the previous post by Slowrid-er on SCOTUS)

Over the years, we as a people have stood by and watched administration after administration encroach like the teen aged boy telling his girlfriend; "I'll only stick it in a little bit."

Wilson with the Income Tax; Roosevelt with his alphabet soup of Federal agencies, Kennedy's expansion of the Viet Nam war, Johnsons continuation of Roosevelts major Federal expansion, Nixon's wage and price controls all as precursors to GW Bush's current encroachments.

Karl Marx, in his Communist Manifesto outlined 10 rules for overcoming a Republic:
1. Abolition of private property and the application of all rents of land to public purposes.
Americans do these with actions such as the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868), and various zoning, school & property taxes. Also the Bureau of Land Management (Zoning laws are the first step to government property ownership)

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Americans know this as misapplication of the 16th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 1913, The Social Security Act of 1936.; Joint House Resolution 192 of 1933; and various State "income" taxes. We call it "paying your fair share".

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
Americans call it Federal & State estate Tax (1916); or reformed Probate Laws, and limited inheritance via arbitrary inheritance tax statutes.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Americans call it government seizures, tax liens, Public "law" 99-570 (1986); Executive order 11490, sections 1205, 2002 which gives private land to the Department of Urban Development; the imprisonment of "terrorists" and those who speak out or write against the "government" (1997 Crime/Terrorist Bill); or the IRS confiscation of property without due process. Asset forfeiture laws are used by DEA, IRS, ATF etc...).

5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
Americans call it the Federal Reserve which is a privately-owned credit/debt system allowed by the Federal Reserve act of 1913. All local banks are members of the Fed system, and are regulated by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) another privately-owned corporation. The Federal Reserve Banks issue Fiat Paper Money and practice economically destructive fractional reserve banking.

6. Centralization of the means of communications and transportation in the hands of the State.
Americans call it the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) and Department of Transportation (DOT) mandated through the ICC act of 1887, the Commissions Act of 1934, The Interstate Commerce Commission established in 1938, The Federal Aviation Administration, Federal Communications Commission, and Executive orders 11490, 10999, as well as State mandated driver's licenses and Department of Transportation regulations.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state, the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
Americans call it corporate capacity, The Desert Entry Act and The Department of Agriculture… Thus read "controlled or subsidized" rather than "owned"… This is easily seen in these as well as the Department of Commerce and Labor, Department of Interior, the Environmental Protection Agency, Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Reclamation, Bureau of Mines, National Park Service, and the IRS control of business through corporate regulations.

8. Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
Americans call it Minimum Wage and slave labor like dealing with our Most Favored Nation trade partner; i.e. Communist China. We see it in practice via the Social Security Administration and The Department of Labor. The National debt and inflation caused by the communal bank has caused the need for a two "income" family. Woman in the workplace since the 1920's, the 19th amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, assorted Socialist Unions, affirmative action, the Federal Public Works Program and of course Executive order 11000.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries, gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of population over the country.
Americans call it the Planning Reorganization act of 1949 , zoning (Title 17 1910-1990) and Super Corporate Farms, as well as Executive orders 11647, 11731 (ten regions) and Public "law" 89-136. These provide for forced relocations and forced sterilization programs, like in China.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.
Americans are being taxed to support what we call 'public' schools, but are actually "government force-tax-funded schools " Even private schools are government regulated. The purpose is to train the young to work for the communal debt system. We also call it the Department of Education, the NEA and Outcome Based "Education" . These are used so that all children can be indoctrinated and inculcated with the government propaganda, like "majority rules", and "pay your fair share". WHERE are the words "fair share" in the Constitution, Bill of Rights or the Internal Revenue Code (Title 26)?? NO WHERE is "fair share" even suggested !! The philosophical concept of "fair share" comes from the Communist maxim, "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need! This concept is pure socialism. ... America was made the greatest society by its private initiative WORK ETHIC ... Teaching ourselves and others how to "fish" to be self sufficient and produce plenty of EXTRA commodities to if so desired could be shared with others who might be "needy"... Americans have always voluntarily been the MOST generous and charitable society on the planet.

Do changing words, change the end result? ... By using different words, is it all of a sudden OK to ignore or violate the provisions or intent of the Constitution of the united States of America?????

The people (politicians) who believe in the SOCIALISTIC and COMMUNISTIC concepts, especially those who pass more and more laws implementing these slavery ideas, are traitors to their oath of office and to the Constitution of the united States of America.

The current crop of candidates, ON BOTH SIDES, are a continuation of the slippery slope. One is an obvious Socialist operative, the other less so, but if elected will need to be watched like a hawk.

Either way, there is more than enough "blame" to go around besides just dumping on GWB. The best advice comes from another member of this board... be alert and keep your weapons loaded and ready.
I can't say that I don't agree that these things have and are happening. The reason they are happening is the people do not know and understand the constitution. If everyone was informed then these things you have listed would not happen or would have been repealed.

This is the reason this thread was started. I hope it helps people to understand their rights and the roll the constitution plays in guaranteeing them.

Thanks for your input.
 
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