[Sirherc]

Ok, this is something I think about when I go through my prepping gear and evaluate my redieness.

Let us consider this, if a serious catastrophe forces us all survivalist and average joe to go in to full scale survivalist mode. It is important to understand that humanity will ultimately begin to rebuild a societal structure. This is inevitable as humans are social animals. So, In my efforts to prepare I have surprised many of my like minded friends because I tend to consider this along with everything else. To me failure to realize man is a social animal by many survivalists is very shortsighted. If one is practical about thinking this through, the early stages of societal rebirth is the beginning of the survival end game. Truly, it seems to be the one aspect of being prepared that we collectively fail to be prepared for. So, my thoughts have forced me to ask this question of everyone. What is your end game strategy?

Consider that there will be gangs of people raiding and pillaging led by charismatic psychopaths, megalomaniacs and opportunists bent only on living day to day by any means necessary. However, even early on, there will also be pockets of people who are focused on reestablishing a societal norm (and yes these groups could be led by charismatic psychopaths, megalomaniacs and opportunists). These groups will start by developing a tribal or clan mentality that is centered on at least rudimentary rule of law within that clan and some sort of governance. Then, as their capabilities and numbers grow they will inevitably spread out establishing a power base tied to an area of land in essence a regional government will form. As this progresses as some point you will be forced to contend with one group / faction or another. This is why I pose the question “What is your end game strategy”?

This is my strategy. In such a situation maintaining your own sovereignty will be critical. If you join a group ultimately all your effort, resources and decisions will be in some way impacted by that group. So, full fledged consumption of the group “Kool-Aid” is always ill advised early on. Therefore, good strategy would be to maintain a personal homestead secluded and unknown from anyone outside an immediate core group. Though this will be difficult it would be critical and would require regular scouts for new more remote locations and the ability to effectively “Bug Out” to one if need be.

However, it would be beneficial to trade / barter with a new fledgling city-state. So, ones survival resources and stockpiles should include things like tobacco seeds, yeast, a still etc. The desirability of vice type items will be huge. Also have resources set aside to reload ammo good for you and very tradable. All trade would have to be handled very carefully. Establishing secure trading outposts / locations where a tactical advantage could be maintained would be critical. Also, multiple locations would be needed as a strategic counter measure to infiltration. All trade goods would need to be cashed securely and separate from the homestead and outposts. Finally limited trading in small amounts with few well screened and established sources only would be imperative. Trading large amounts, with many sources or with poorly screened people would likely spell disaster.

Eventually I could discern if becoming part of a fledgling city-state is in my best interest by following this plan. If it is fine, if not, I could cut bait and run. However, I could do so after having some time to trade my way into a better position to do so. Also, I can always run upon initial observation or contact with the encroaching group if prudence deems it necessary. Any way, I am anxious to here the thoughts an ideas of everyone else. I know it a wild hypothetical but isn’t all we do to prepare based on the big WHAT IF and being ready for it?

 

[goose3]

man is a social animal

and

maintaining your own sovereignty will be critical.

You lost me here. You can't have it both ways. You want independence while at the same time wanting a group to fall back on.

Being a member of a group requires you to give up some of your individual sovereignty. It's the social contract to which Hobbes was referring: everybody agrees to give up a little personal freedom and liberty such that we can have a society in which predictability is possible.

Most people would agree, for instance, that your right to swing your fist stops at my nose. Your "right" to drive as fast as you possibly can or want to is something that interferes with my right not to be slammed into by you as I back out of my driveway.


You can't have it both ways.

 

[Kansas Terri]

It happened in Russia already.

From the bits that i have read, peddlers traveled between cities, which both supported the peddlers and their families nad also made life easier for everybody. I saw a picture of those peddlers: I could not help but notice that they were traveling together. I suppose a peddler alone would be a tempting target as they would have both trade goods and money!

The FIRST thing, however, would be to assess the situation and do anything that needed to be done. After the big ice storm we all checked on our neighbors, located where the power lines were (some came down), and cut branches that were threatening other power lines, and so forth. Which meant that we were not cooking at that moment. Tell me, do you have food in your preps that only need to be opened and eaten? Because we did not have enough of those. We were outside and came in cold and hungry and here was nothing hot and filling to eat. A cold peanut butter andwich under those conditions does NOT! satisfy!

 

[Stillar]

There is a large part of fantasy in your thread. I don't think things will go the way your suggesting.

 

[MattB4]

But what if you are opportunist that suffers from megalomania who just happens to be a charismatic psychopath? I'll tell ya it makes life difficult.

Good thread and interesting thoughts. I had considered something similar this morning while I was driving in to do some shopping (I go in every 2 weeks now). Though my thinking was more on the question of a poll to see how long each person felt they could hold out until a somewhat standard society reasserted itself after a major disruption. In my case I figure about 6 mos to a year. After that it would get very dicey for me without access to trade or medicine.

I could go longer without human interaction than most because I am not a social person though I can be very sociable.

 

[theamazingmarlow]

this scenario weighs heavily on the cause of the catastrophe. societies reaction to new government will be decided on how the old government left power.

i would be more accepting of a new government after a comet strike or natural disaster than a civil war or economic collapse.

 

[arleigh]

I have long considdred this issue , and in preference to refrain from socialism , it must be established that only people that can be trusted ,would trade be established, unlike today making our known enemies rich .
It takes a moral compass, which in this current society is like a magnet that has lost it's strength and nothing can bring it back except a sevire shock ,and that of only a temperary value.
Many here have expressed they do not prefir any moral value,only selfish isolation , so what is there to build with ?
Unless moral values can be agreed upon there is no super glue that can hold a group together. in fact the more that issues must have solidarity the fewier there are that will support it, in this current society.
I emagine that it will take a significant die off , probibly a third of the earth's population or more, before people become more brotherly. I did not say liberal .
It is likely, slavery will return ,on a voulintary basis for some and a trade(property) for others.all for survival .
It is not like it doesn't already exist, it will just become more obvious.
In modern business now days, are you not a slave to your bosses even off work hours ?
Struggling to keep a job is as much a slavery to it , even to a government that will take your home if you do not pay taxes, you are a slave one way or another.
If family groups proved formitable and productive ,to which home schooling and family buisiness would be essential to survival , this could represent a strength in a community, a common currency could be established with .
Community , interesting word .
May be a better word would serve to defign a better form of cooperation among a group of individuals working for their common good .
I admire the swiss perspective But not knowing all of their society I cannot endorce it blindly. However ,
It seems that if one is going to be supported by a community they have responsibility to participate .
Participation demands the responsibility to vote as well.
Some one that is not a proven participant, the community is not obligated to support.
Children under 12 would recieve the benifits their parents share with them, children over 12 have a choice to participate or be considdred a stranger among the community .
Strangers are expelled during conflicts and have no vote, and not to be trusted untill proven other wise, to which the community must agree on. No one by any means is obligated to do business with strangers, in fact encouraged not to, as a matter of security .
One should not be able to buy their way in , it must be earned over time,as much time as it takes to earn trust .
Votes must come with a valid reason all recognize.
It seems to me that over time , the lifestyle would evolve eventually to what it is today ,self centered, rebellious and greedy, but at least for a while it would be some what stable.
Human nature has proven to rebel against every form of government, especially the more civilized they believe they are.
There must be a price , and there must be conciquences. defiance of these issues no decent society can exist.

 

[bighanded]

scenario 1: The Postman - Costner comes across a bunch of hippies partying every night to an acoustic guitar and bongos..subject to raiders who they must constantly feed.

Scenario 2: Tina Turner - Mel has the oppty to dwell in the tower with sheer drapes and a leggy big hair 80s rocker chick in Barter Town...

um.. I'll go with option B..Tina any day...


Fact is, my wife and I are prepared to "sit it out" for a good while until some sort of order is reestablished...then we can go shopping and find a like minded social group to engage..understanding that negotiations will ensue in order to gain access...we also have a fairly large immediate family so as long as they can all rally here to our country estate...then we can build our social core early on and pair up with some of our currently like minded and prepared neighbors.

if all there are left are a bunch of raiders..then we have some fun zombie nights till all the ammo is gone, make our peace with God and call it a day...

or....

we could book our family rock band at the Raider's bar house gig....:thumb:

 

[Sirherc]

Maybe I was not as clear as I intended to be. I ment that you would need to maintain independance untill you could evaluate any group long enough to know if they were right for you or not. For example, you dont want to just fall in with a group then find out they eat people to survive lol. Thats an extream example but that what I ment when I said you dont want to just DRINK THE KOOL-AID on day one.

Goose3 let me clear up my thoughts. I was saying you must remain independent until you can determine if any group is good for you. That is why I said at first you must maintain your sovereignty. Also, simply put, familiarity breeds contempt this is why I say we will all at some point be inclined to reestablish interaction with humans outside our core group. I was simply saying that you would need to rejoin society carefully and not all at once. So, with that in mind what is your plan or thoughts on doing so.

Also, as someone pointed out this is an extreme hypothetical. But, like I said, everything we as survivalist / peppers do is rooted in the hypothetical some are just more likely than others. Though, this one is admittedly unlikely, I have already found, from the responses so far, that the insight given has been most helpful and interesting.

Kansas Terri and Arleigh have both made good points and what they said goes hand in hand with why my end game strategy that is largely based on trade. I truly believe that the need to trade your personal excess for what you lack will drive the reestablishment of a rudimentary society and governance and history supports that theory. Furthermore, to touch on what Arleigh said, I am a skilled tailor and upholsterer by trade in my day to day life. I am also an armature tanner & leather worker, gunsmith, auto & diesel mechanic, trained and battle expierenced soldier and EMT. I feel these are all skills that would make me a valuable asset to any group. I am interested to here about everyone else's marketable skills as part of this hypothetical as well. What makes you an asset to the group that you choose to try and join into and do you have more than one valuable skill?

 

[occam]

You will not see a 'fledgling city-state' in America in your lifetime. Take a deep breath.

 

[Kansas Terri]

Maybe I was not as clear as I intended to be. I ment that you would need to maintain independance untill you could evaluate any group long enough to know if they were right for you or not. For example, you dont want to just fall in with a group then find out they eat people to survive lol. Thats an extream example but that what I ment when I said you dont want to just DRINK THE KOOL-AID on day one.

Your group would probably be drawn from your own neighborhood. They would be close enough so that you folks can group together easily, and you also know them.

The alternative would be for you to travel by yourself and try to get to know people while you are traveling, which would be super hard. It is far easier to know who, among your neighbors, are generally capable.

Also, a depression is more likely than a "MAd Max" scene. And, during the depression, strangers were treated with suspicion more often than not. It is far more practical to group up with people that you know, even if they are just aquaintences.

 

[Sirherc]

You will not see a 'fledgling city-state' in America in your lifetime. Take a deep breath.

I like to believe that but I am only on the 95% sure bus. The European debt crisis, a nuclear Iran, huge debt to China, an over extended military, a world wide population in excess of 7 billion people and growing, dwindling natural resources world wide and on and on. Logic states this is a seriously lopsided equation that can not be balanced without significant upheaval.

PS - My neighborhood sucks! LOL everytime I carry my guns out to the car for a range day I get terrable looks from my neighbors. I cant wait for this winter when they see a deer hanging gutted from my back porch. I actually had a neighbor ask me "why I owned pistols" I told her so I could get back to my Rifel. She did not get it.

 

[LordOpie]

First, I'd build a Granary, then a phalanx. Depending on my scouting efforts, I might go with a marketplace or archers. I also try to get a Great Wonder started ASAP.

 

[occam]

I like to believe that but I am only on the 95% sure bus. The European debt crisis, a nuclear Iran, huge debt to China, an over extended military, a world wide population in excess of 7 billion people and growing, dwindling natural resources world wide and on and on. Logic states this is a seriously lopsided equation that can not be balanced without significant upheaval.

Provide me one example where an industrialized nation has ever collapsed in a short period of time so that basic civic services were completely and permanently discontinued. It doesn't happen.

The US is the wealthiest and most powerful industrial nation in the history of the world. Wealth and power are useful in avoiding collapse. Do you seriously think a nation that produces $15 trillion per year in goods and services and can land a Mini Cooper on Mars like we did this week is going to cease to exist in your lifetime? It is not going to happen.

I'm not saying you shouldn't prep. You should. But prep for something that is likely to occur. Prep for regional natural disasters, no Social Security check, no Medicare or Medicaid coverage, expensive food, expensive energy, and a slowly spiraling economy where the 10% of the population who still want a job will not be able to find one. (Another 10% are pretending to want a job but really don't.) That's the future for the next quarter century.

 

[Sirherc]

I agree thats why I am 95% sure your right. Logic dictates though that if there is any likelyhood of something happening, no matter how remote, then it eventually it will happen. That is the reason why I started this thread. Im interested on everyones thoughts because in truth I am better prepared when I have the insight of others to evaluate. Also, if your prepared for the worst then anything less is that much easier to handel.

 

[Arsenul]

It happened, now we get everyone to the BOL and instantly work on our security. We are in a big compound so we need it. Once we have everything set up we have some of the hunters and fishers we have go out to get some food for people. The rest of us cut down the local flag poles and get some gear to start making wind turbines. For those of us that don't sleep at night, they will either be on patrol or they will be making the head, tail, and blades to the wind turbine, setting it up for when we attach it to the pole and get to work for the extra power. Our electrician will work on the batter banks and we will get ready for what ever happens after. Our BOL is right next to a river and through out the day we would have people bringing water back and forth to get clean water for people to use. One thing we do is work on making our BOL's roof into a place where we can gather rain water. We basically harvest a lot of the rain gutters around us to move the water to one large room. There's a local pool in which we plan on using for water too. We have a good plan going.

 

[Sirherc]

It happened, now we get everyone to the BOL and instantly work on our security.....We have a good plan going.

Excellent plan, but let me ask you this. In your plan you are the group I am talking about. So, in the wilds, you meet me while scouting, hunting, what ever. I am alone and make it clear to you I am interested in starting a dialogue, though as yet you do not know why. What is your next move?

See, your post is interisting because you represent the other side of this question. You have a group from day one and thats what I am talking about. There will be loaners, 2-5 person cells, raiders and cohesive structured groups from day one. Yours sounds like the latter but how does your group proceed once the air has cleared.

 

[Arsenul]

Excellent plan, but let me ask you this. In your plan you are the group I am talking about. So, in the wilds, you meet me while scouting, hunting, what ever. I am alone and make it clear to you I am interested in starting a dialogue, though as yet you do not know why. What is your next move?

See, your post is interisting because you represent the other side of this question. You have a group from day one and thats what I am talking about. There will be loaners, 2-5 person cells, raiders and cohesive structured groups from day one. Yours sounds like the latter but how does your group proceed once the air has cleared.

We've talked about what would happen once everything was settled down and we figured that if we ran into anyone, we would blind fold them and put ear plugs in their ears. We'd bring them to a single room that is sound proof and has no windows with a single door that's always guarded. I'd talk to them and relay it to everyone so they can vote as a group on what to do next. During the time before the vote we'd have a few party's go out and search for nearby camps to see if anyone is waiting for him or any raiders are nearby.

Assume the worst but hope for the best.

 

[RevTracy]

Provide me one example where an industrialized nation has ever collapsed in a short period of time so that basic civic services were completely and permanently discontinued. It doesn't happen.

Rome...in the fourth century..."industrialized" by ancient standards, THE power in the region for hundreds of years, GONE in a very short time. Not an exact comparison to today, but theoretically speaking, pretty close.

 

[LordOpie]

We've talked about what would happen once everything was settled down and we figured that if we ran into anyone, we would blind fold them and put ear plugs in their ears. We'd bring them to a single room that is sound proof and has no windows with a single door that's always guarded. I'd talk to them and relay it to everyone so they can vote as a group on what to do next. During the time before the vote we'd have a few party's go out and search for nearby camps to see if anyone is waiting for him or any raiders are nearby.

Assume the worst but hope for the best.

lol

way over the top. blind fold, ear plugs, no escape room. You're setting yourself up for failure in that scenario. How about you just have a discussion with the guy and see if he/they would be a good fit for your group.