I read the full report. What a joke. There wasn't a single word spoken on their real definitions, how they did it, the real data, etc.

A 30 year study was covered in a brief 13 page "report?"

I'm all for doing things more naturally, however their "report" left me with more questions than answers. Smells fishy.

 

Did you check out the references page?

http://www.rodaleinstitute.org/fst30years/references

 

So, what are YOU going to do Horned One?

(( I'm supposing you are suggesting that farmers change their time proven ways. ))

 

So, what are YOU going to do Horned One?

(( I'm supposing you are suggesting that farmers change their ways. ))

Why are all your posts so defensive? You are the only staff member that seems grumpy all the time

 

There is that grumpiness I was speaking about. I can see any debate with you is pointless

Have a nice day!

 

What, That I won't disregard the labor required for the OP to hold water?

 

Wow, the Rodale Institute published a study favorable to organic farming.

In other news, Hank Williams Jr. drank a few beers today.

 

There is a growing movement of organic / sustainable farmers slowly taking hold in our nation.

The principles used are often at odds with those of conventional farming practices.

With Peak Oil occurring we need to prepare to shift away from using petroleum to farm with.

It may be wise to consider organic methods.

To suggest that organic methods require hiring illegals, is like suggesting that go hunting you must first shot your foot off. It makes no sense.

 

So how does organic reduce petro consumption Does organic involve using oxen or draft horses?

 

Just imagine how much more productive organic farms would be if they utilized Monsanto products more, not to mention the higher quality and safety. :

 

Then they wouldn't be organic farms.

Why do you always have to bring up Monsanto?

 

If everyone did farming for themselves, there would be not workforce available to run the MRI at the Hospital. No one in Hollywood to make stupid movies. Non-Farm labor would be so scarce, that even the jack*** positions would be hard to fill.

. . . and it does sound that you want 90% of the population to become farmers. I don't want to be a farmer. I'll do a garden - but I'm not going to build a little house on the prairie. That dude died of cancer. He should have gotten an MRI.

 

If everyone did farming for themselves, there would be not workforce available to run the MRI at the Hospital. No one in Hollywood to make stupid movies.

Yes, with the exception of the 60% population who would not be farmers, there would not be anyone to run the MRIs.

 

I read the report, it doesn't say how big the plots were, but they took several plots, close to each other, but in the same area, with the same soil, under the same conditions, but we don't know if the same procedures were equal, they could have worked harder to get the organic to succeed, or did less to make the commercial fail....btw, if they used commercial, how did they keep it off the organic? They said that they changed some things as early as 3 yrs ago, yet include it into the 30 yrs study....

This does not address the other problems with farming.....farmers are being controlled by govt on what to grow and not grow......how does organic hold up in commercial shipping? How does organic translate to all areas around the Country? LAstly, as everyone knows, a model does not guarantee it will translate on a much larger scale.....As I said, I like organic, but it's hard to get certified organic and I'm not convinced it can replace commercial afa feeding the world.

 

Well, we essentially grew organic vegetables for the past 5,000-10,000 years or so. It's only the past 100 years that we've used petroleum to increase farming, so when the oil stops, we'll have no choice but to be organic farmers again.

 

How do you go about getting certified organic? The USDA now essentially owns that word and you can't use it to describe your produce unless they say you can. I was under the impression that the newest round of regulation made the application and renewal process much more difficult. I know all about this. I seen a YouTube video about it! :thumb:

Ok ok. I really don't know squat!

 

there is a way you dont need the "organic" rating. use sustainable practices and let customers on the farm to see.

you dont need expensive ratings and everyone can win with good food and good practices and cheaper foods

its still organic, just not "called" organic on paper

i buy some foods like this,

 

I agree with you forestbeekeeper except to say that it nowadays is no longer '2 acres can support six families - it is now 'how do we get six families to work the land? they're all in the cities with marketing jobs.'

Primary producing is seen as a hiding to nowhere financially speaking. Especially if they're doing it by hand. And you know I'm biointensive so I agree with working by hand and picking the bugs off.

My uncle was a farmer. He used irrigation, superphosphates, etc. They dont have a heck of a lot of choice because they're producing x amount of food for y amount of dollars per kilo and all risk lies with them. They actually have to have economy of scale, and they're not doing it for idealistic reasons, they're doing it to earn money and pay the heinous mortgage on the land. All risk and danger, and no crop insurance for most farmers because it's too expensive to get it. Which is an indication of how much risk and danger is involved.

I think a lot of earlier farming techniques worked when we drove horses and carts, and there was a LOT of dung around. Now not so much. In fact, almost none. If you organic farmers think very carefully about the biodome model, ask yourselves if you have to bring things in to fertilise that land. If everyone is doing this, everyone growing plants and bringing compost and dung in to do this - where is that coming from? You may say it's coming from the forest - but what if you have to compete for that leaf litter? What if everyone were doing this? It would no longer be doable for you.

Thing is, it's got nowhere to come from. Every single form of farming depletes the earth, every single form of farming has sustainability issues. I'm not a fan of modern farming methods, but we have to understand that for some people it's not a matter of choice. And at the end of the day if we're bringing in 500g nitrophoska fertiliser for our metre of land instead of 5kg of dung then there actually is a reduction in fossil fuel use at least.

And in closing: we cannot go back to horse and cart days living in sod huts in order to solve the world's problems. We got out of horse and carts and sod huts because society couldn't do it that way any more - we innovated out of them because they, themselves were becoming unsustainable and unsurvivable. We cannot devolve our way out of this. We have to evolve our way out of this. Look forwards, not backwards, to a new solution.

 

I agree with you forestbeekeeper except to say that it nowadays is no longer '2 acres can support six families - it is now 'how do we get six families to work the land? they're all in the cities with marketing jobs.'

Well, then, there's the problem -- too many people with marketing jobs!

 

Does anyone want to discuss the "study" from the original post?

 

Sorry TacomaJPP

 

I have a BS in Agricultural Engineering, U of Md College Park.

I read the whole flawed report.

I own and operate a profitable "hobby" farm, 49 acres, row crops, corn, soybean, wheat.

The Rodale report is very disappointing in the errors and ommissions it contains, nothing but a propaganda piece in favor of organic agriculture.

From Human Health "inactive ingredients are more toxic", bull crap. Inactive is just that, in formulary its usually clay of varying degrees of fineness.

Side by side organic and conventional, no way without contaminating the organic.

Soil percolation rates much greater in organic, come on, how was this measured. This requires some pretty sophisticated test equipment.

No till higher energy input than conventional, no way. Maybe higher cost, but not the energy component (usually custom spray is the big cost adder in no till, spray your own and the cost is lower than conventional).

The cost numbers are from where?. etc

I look forward to an actual scientific analysis of organic farming. I never have seen one, if you know of one let me know, link it whatever.

Here is one on conventional versus no till. No BS, no fluff, no opinion.

http://www.dasnr.okstate.edu/notill/handbook-chapters/Chapter 6.pdf

Note - if you look at the report, first statement in the box" no till higher yields than conventional". Rodale said no till had the lowest yields.

 

I grew up farming corn and soybeans in north central Iowa. My family's farm would fetch about $7000/ac if we choose to sell.

Now, I'm building a small ranch in eastern Oklahoma. While I prefer to fertilize using manure and compost and I prefer to spray as little as possible, there is a real big problem trying to implement any large scale change to organic methods. This problem is easy to spot when driving through the upper Midwest.

The farmers in the corn belt no longer have any fences, corn cribs, cultivators, pastures, multi crop rotation, and no damn livestock.

The entire place uses grain drills, spray applicators, combines, steel drying bins, and the only hogs I saw were in confinement.

Yes, less spray = better food.

But you can not change the farming practices of a 800-1000 ac crop farm to intensive organic methods without a bunch of new highly skilled farmers. About 50 of them.

They would first have to buy out the folks who currently own the land, divide it up, fense it, rebuild the soil, build the supporting buildings, etc. Then support themselves for 3-4 years as they change over.

Fences and equipment could be replaced. But where are we going to get the skilled people?

I believe that any chance to transition a modern farm to sustainable methods requires that we start by reintroducing the multi crop rotation and a heavy dose of livestock. You need to keep the tractors for a while because there are not enough draft horses to go around. Call it mechanized Amish Farming if you want.

 

I think we're screwed, blued, and tattooed as a country.

Between politics, lobbying, regulations, subsidies, and government, we, as a country are not going to have a reasonable debate which is then followed by reasonable politicians making logical decisions on how to move forward in getting us on the right track.

Therefore, I again resort to my ol' fall back position:

Do the best you can for yourself...now, while you still have a chance. Buy acreage, with dirt, trees, and water. Have a veggie garden, orchard, herbs, compost, some livestock, pond, fish, firewood, energy efficient home, a way to heat with wood, if you are real lucky...a way to make your own electricity, etc.

If anyone in anyway is thinking that we are moving to a bright future with an entitlement society that is exploding in population with politicians that are raping the treasury and our resources...you need to have your head examined.

Focus on you...now.

 

I think a lot of people here dream of days gone by.

The love the idea of horse and cart, sitting by the fire reading a book, that stuff.

Back in the days of yore before the technological revolution. But the problem is that the technological revolution caused an exponential population explosion and new techniques for farming had to be instigated. I think a lot of people would be utterly horrified at the new farming techniques, especially for animals, because they're still dreaming of happy farmlands and you just can't get your beef cheap enough that way.

If we want to go back to the horse and cart technology we have to reverse the population explosion. We need a war, we need a nuclear holocaust, we need 2012 which is I think where these fantasies are coming from. Everyone hopes beyond hope that this will happen and they'll be the only ones left to start over in a brave new world.

it's not going to be the case. The wheel rolls forwards, not backwards. I see a devolution into Haiti before us, a devolution from Haiti to Easter Island perhaps... but a forwards progression and not a backwards one.

I live in terror of people marching on parliament and changing laws for idealistic reasons without seriously considering the practicalities. Grow your own food organically - that's what I do - but don't proselytise to the commercial farmers. They're doing what they have been forced into doing.

 

Minor correction:

Grow your own food organically - that's what I do - but don't proselytise to the commercial farmers ...

... They are only filling a market need, operating profitable enterprises by growing what the masses wish to purchse.

(((( there, I fixed it for you ))))