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Discussion Starter #1
Christians and other religious people often talk about miracles and some even claim to have witnessed such miracles. Other people believe in healing, ghosts and other phenomena we categorize as supernatural.
In many cases we can call the bluff, other socalled supernatural phenomena can be explained as the result of quite normal events.
But in some cases there is no explanation even though the observed phenomena seems utterly absurd. For a religious person these events can explained in light of their belief and accepted as a natural thing or even a miracle through divine intervention.

Now, if we assume that the atheists are right and there is no God and no system or purpose to life other than what we add ourself, then how do we try to understand such phenomena?

Example from an interesting TV documentary I saw:
A rather famous danish atheist journalist has spent some 25 years critizising religion trying to disprove christianity and other religions. After a car crash some 15 years ago he had developed double vision and a sort of cramp in his eyes that bothered him a lot. So he decided to put "christian healing" to the test to, as he said, call their bluff. He went to a religious meeting where they supposedly healed the sick in Gods name.
Now during this session he suddenly jumps to as if he is hit by electric shock and turns totally pale. He then starts to cry and gets out of the room. The camera crew follow him and ask him what is wrong. The guy answers that his vision suddenly in the blink of a second goes back to normal for the first time in 15 years. You can clearly see that he is deeply shook from this event. They then film him next a couple of weeks later after he has had his eyes checked by a hospital. The hospital tells him that the nerve damage that was not supposed to heal actually has and that his eyesight is perfect.

Now for a christian this would be proof of his/her religious belief. But how do we try to understand this phenomena from an atheists standpoint. This event is documented and it actually happened to someone who tried to disprove that such things could happen. It was observed and documented. The reason why it happened or how it happened however has not.

This is just one example. I am sure that most people have heard of different phenomena that can't be explained through normal science and at the same time can't be written off as hoaxes, delutional observations or erronous observations of normal events.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
1) hysterical blindness 2) he was lying 3) a really cute chick in the camera crew he wanted to sleep with.
Just throw it out as nonsense? There is absolutely nothing more than what we can see and touch? Nothing we haven't discovered yet, nothing hidden, no dimentions we don't know and no forces we haven't tamed?

What about the lights above "Hessdalen"? They have been filming them and monitoring them for some 20 years and are still not able to give any sort of scientific explanation to what it is.
 

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I try leading a christian lifestyle and consider myself a christian. I don't judge others because of what they believe or don't believe. They have a right to their opinion just as i do mine. I do believe in the King James version of the bible and what it stands for. I refuse to argue about the bible but when i see some of the posts in this section of the forum i do pray for you and ask others to do the same. To me if you truly believe in God and Jesus Christ and that Jesus died for our sins then your a brother or sister in Christ . I try hard to live what i believe and can only hope others will do the same.



I do the laying of the hands and have seen it work many times. I don't consider myself special....just a tool. To me healings aren't a strange phenomena. When you anoint someone with oil and ask for a healing in the name of Jesus Christ and it takes place you soon get past the phenomena part after the first three or four and realize a higher power is at work. I invite you to read in the King James version in the book of Mark Chapter 11 verses 22 through 26. If you believe then you'll find those are some of the most powerful words you will ever read. I've personally saw cancers cured, a little child they said would be as vegetable at birth now runs and plays like any normal child her age. I've seen fevers broken, lives spared and prayers answered. I give God all the credit because it didn't happen until after it was asked for in his holy name. People can laugh at , make fun of, believe or not believe. It makes no difference to me. I know what i have seen and what i have in my Lord Jesus Christ and shall cling to it until life leaves my body and beyond that. I very seldom get on line anymore so if something needs a reply please don't expect it very soon.

ToolOfHis

" If people spent less time arguing their beliefs and more time living them the world would improve greatly in no time at all. "
 

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It could be anything! We don't know! As you said...
Nothing we haven't discovered yet, nothing hidden, no dimentions we don't know and no forces we haven't tamed?
Yes, yes, and yes. Could be any of the above. Could be God. We don't know but I think it is fun to think about and test different ideas.

Live would be boring if we new all the answers.

Though I guess some would think it would be scary if they didn't know the answers. Thats probably why some have convinced themselves that they do.
 

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just had this talk

just had a major talk with my girl friend about this.

i have had multiple sclerosis for 19 years, now in a wheel chair and cant do much for myself. as far as i am concerned i believe in the healing power of faith, and have for longer than i've had this disease, and have been involved in a few different spiritual healing practices all along. so why can't i be healed? do i not 'believe' deeply enough?

my friend who claims she does not even believe in God says she can 'will' migrane headachs away. and that i should try harder or more or better or something.

now this bothers me. and i think you can see why. why can some people be healed or heal them selfs, while others just get worse? why can't my friend explain how she does this? am i at fault here, unskilled, unknowing, or what?

any input here to my specific situation?
 

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ever hear the saying "throwing out the fleece?"
You're not supposed to TEST GOD.

Maybe there is a purpose for your affliction. One you have yet to discover or be made aware of. I lost eyesight in my left eye- cannot drive past dusk. Makes lifea little inconvenient at times, but I don't test GOD and try to wonder why he took it from me. I'm alive, I'm healthy. I happen to be a believer, and I thank Him every day for what he has shown me.
 

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so are all of the people that do get healed in one way or another 'testing God'? or was it Gods will that they should be aflicted for some exact amount of time to the moment when they prayed to be healed for the ____ time and then...?
 

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malcontent,

first off, screw that testing god crap. We don't know gods will. And if there is a god I don't think he is a petty fool who does not like to be "tested". I believe he is GREAT. Greater than these stupid human characteristic so many want to give him. If these people are right then there is no real difference between god and us......hmmmm where could that lead.

Anyways, I also believe in the healing powers of faith. Well, maybe not faith the way most here see it. . I don't necessaraly have faith in God. I have more faith in myself than god. I don't know what it is. For me it is faith in myself and being in ballance with the earth and nature. . I believe this has helped me greatly in difficult times emotionally and physically (like when I broke my neck). And not just in difficult times. In every day life. I do believe that some have the ability to heal and or channel energy. Why it works for some and not others I have no idea. As I said for me it is about being in ballance with the universe/nature/the earth. Sometimes I through in a little prayer for God but that is not were my faith is. I say, "God I have no idea if you exist but if you do, please have understanding for my doubts and know that I am doing my best. Can you help me in this difficult time" As I said, no real faith there. More like recognizing a possablility and making it knows that I have no mallace or ill will there. Have you ever gone down the road of ballance and using energy from the universe. I like the even scientist now are recognizing that everything has this energy. There seams to be more support for it in the scientific world every day.

Sorry this post is SUPER jumbled an sloppy.
 

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Kodie1
We don't know gods will. And if there is a god I don't think he is a petty fool who does not like to be "tested".

Sorry this post is SUPER jumbled an sloppy.
It is sloppy to suggest that God may not exist then blurt out that you know what His will is. This has been your m.o. ever since you entered the Religious Discussions. Some days, you emphatically state that God does not exist, then it becomes a maybe, then you know His absolute will. Wishy washiness is not only Super Sloppy but irritating.
 
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Discussion Starter #11
Nah there is no point..
Doesn't matter how you present threads about these topics, they allways end up as flaming threads between the different positions on religion anyway.
 

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Before the flames consume all before them.....

I figure, soon as someone can demonstrate ANYTHING supernatural in front of a panel of serious minded witnesses... say physicians or physicists as the demo may call for...then i will believe if they say its real.

It would be a fantastic international sensation too. Wonder why it never happens.

i will also believe in unicorns when someone produces one.
 

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Before the flames consume all before them.....

I figure, soon as someone can demonstrate ANYTHING supernatural in front of a panel of serious minded witnesses... say physicians or physicists as the demo may call for...then i will believe if they say its real.

It would be a fantastic international sensation too. Wonder why it never happens.

i will also believe in unicorns when someone produces one.
No it wouldn't. A phenomena deemed as supernatural would not be an international sensation unless someone could come up with an explanation to it.

Here is one that many consider supernatural. Documented and filmed over several years and studied by many without any conclusion.

http://hessdalen.hiof.no/index_e.shtml

I am pretty sure its not supernatural at all. Maybe its just something we don't know or understand yet. A Hoax? Well, maybe if the funny people are so persistant they have kept it going for 25 years.
 

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Defining what is "supernatural' is tough maybe. Im sure a radio would qualify in some settings.

There are SO many claims of paranormal / psychic / supernatural, that someone ought to be able to really do levitation or reading cards from the next room or something. Easy to demonstrate if you can do it, easy to observe.

It would be a sensation if it really was psychic. Any demonstration of the supernatural would be the greatest scientific revolution ever, would it not?

I think you sort of said it backwards, that it would not be a sensation unloess someone came up with an explanation. Thing is, someone would, and then its just science or technology or a card trick..
 

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It is because of these things that I am agnostic. I don't believe in prostrating myself to something that I cannot see. I do believe in treating my fellow men and women as equals and fairly. The golden rule I try to live by. Yes there are many times I want revenge on people, but I usually let it go after some thought, why make more enemies right.

Back on topic. I don't believe that science or religion can explain everything, but do we really need everything explained. Space and time and supernatural events are too big and awesome to try to rationalize. Even thinking about the interconnectedness of our ecosystems and food chains drives me bonkers, makes me think how could this all just evolve from a cell. Dejavu is what really makes me think that there is something other than just our physical world. I've seen things before they happen, but only when they happen do you know you've seen it before. Happens to me weekly, and I mean weekly. Sometimes I'll have the same dejavu more than once, or I'll have dejuvu of a dejavu.

There are other forces at work than just the ones we can see and feel physically, or know are there because of science (gravity, magnetism). This does not mean however that I will go to church or pray for myself or others. I do what I can for myself and others to the best of my abilities.
 

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Now for a christian this would be proof of his/her religious belief. But how do we try to understand this phenomena from an atheists standpoint. This event is documented and it actually happened to someone who tried to disprove that such things could happen. It was observed and documented. The reason why it happened or how it happened however has not.

This is just one example. I am sure that most people have heard of different phenomena that can't be explained through normal science and at the same time can't be written off as hoaxes, delutional observations or erronous observations of normal events.
Let's take it into the lab and test it. Have one of your healers fix something when the cameras are rolling, something objective and serious like a spinal cord injury.

James Randi has been challenging these fakers for a long time. They have yet to claim his money.

 

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Before the flames consume all before them.....

I figure, soon as someone can demonstrate ANYTHING supernatural in front of a panel of serious minded witnesses... say physicians or physicists as the demo may call for...then i will believe if they say its real.

It would be a fantastic international sensation too. Wonder why it never happens.

i will also believe in unicorns when someone produces one.
The problem with trying to present something "supernatural" is that it is generally a random event and out of man's control. The unseen, spiritual world sometimes overlaps with the physical realm and when it does, something we consider supernatural occurs. I don't mess with that world. However, I believe that it exits. The witch of Endor brought up a spirit that appeared to be the prophet Samuel. Christ forced a legion of demons out of an insane man. There is definitely an unseen world but it isn't something I could present to a group of people anymore than you could assemble a group of professionals and present a falling star on command. It happens when it happens.
 

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The problem with trying to present something "supernatural" is that it is generally a random event and out of man's control. The unseen, spiritual world sometimes overlaps with the physical realm and when it does, something we consider supernatural occurs. I don't mess with that world. However, I believe that it exits. The witch of Endor brought up a spirit that appeared to be the prophet Samuel. Christ forced a legion of demons out of an insane man. There is definitely an unseen world but it isn't something I could present to a group of people anymore than you could assemble a group of professionals and present a falling star on command. It happens when it happens.
I think you gotta see that story about jesus and the demons as apocryphal
because, for one thing, madmen in the old days were always possessed by demons now they never are. means to me that superstitious people of old thought it was demons now we know better.

Aslo... so mean to send the demons into some pigs that were some poor guys livelihood. no compensation either. surely jesus wont do that.


anyhow, yes, if there are supernatural events nobody can control them.
that is what irks me about all the fakers who say they can.
they always have an excuse why they cant do it in front of a panel, or get rich. no excuse needed; they are fakes.
 

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The problem with trying to present something "supernatural" is that it is generally a random event and out of man's control. The unseen, spiritual world sometimes overlaps with the physical realm and when it does, something we consider supernatural occurs. I don't mess with that world. However, I believe that it exits. The witch of Endor brought up a spirit that appeared to be the prophet Samuel. Christ forced a legion of demons out of an insane man. There is definitely an unseen world but it isn't something I could present to a group of people anymore than you could assemble a group of professionals and present a falling star on command. It happens when it happens.
And here you can redefine the "supernatural" in a way that any such event would look "natural" but random, unless you've got Superman-style special eyes like AJ does!

And just trust him folks, his eyesight's better than yours. Don't believe him? Just ask him.
 

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kodie,

"Have you ever gone down the road of ballance and using energy from the universe. I like the even scientist now are recognizing that everything has this energy. "

Yes, i have gone down that road, and i also have experiences as you and others have shared. part of my problem is that i have a technical background. test, analyse, brainstorm and report results. then is personel things i have to loosen the grip.

we just try to keep that balance.
 
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