I had 3 operations at l4,l5. The pain felt like someone hitting you in the knee with a baseball bat every step.

The first operation they removed a bone fragment from the spinal area. Nurse said it looked very "angry". That lasted 2 years. The second was Laser Spine institute it lasted 2 months. The third was UAB Birmingham. It's been over five years with a few hiccups.

 

The second was Laser Spine institute it lasted 2 months.

I can echo this negative experience with Laser Spine Institute. They promise the world and go on and on about how great their treatment is because there is no cutting. They claim that the laser burns away the nerves and they won't grow back so the pain will be gone forever. Don't believe it. My wife felt significantly better immediately after the procedure but her pain returned as strong as before within 2 weeks.

They will file an insurance claim but want a large payment up front and claim that they will refund whatever amount the insurance covers. They charged us $30,000 up front and only refunded $3,000 because they filed the claim incorrectly so insurance denied all but the $3,000. They claimed to resubmit several times over 6 months to correct the filing errors. The insurance company has no record of LSI contacting them any to correct the filing - they lied repeatedly. They don't participate in any insurance plans so all services will be covered - IF they were filed correctly or at all - at out of network rates meaning you have to pay more out of pocket with a higher deductible. After 6 months we ended up having to sue to recover the deposit and for false claims of effectiveness. It was over 2 years before we were able to settle anything. In other words, we wasted a lot of time, money, and pain based on their lies. Since our suit, they've added lots of weasel words to their claims of effectiveness BUT that's only in the small print buried in the paperwork. Verbally they continue to give assurances of the miracle of laser treatment BUT it's what's in the written agreement that you have to sign that has the legally binding claims of effectiveness - ie no guarantee of any benefit at all along with a long list of consequences so that their butts are covered.

Now that that is out of the way...

My wife has had many surgeries on her back. Whatever you decide to do, if surgery is suggested by the doctor, please, PLEASE get at least a second opinion. Most insurances will pay for second opinions 100%. The 2nd or 3rd opinions can help a lot. The first doctor might recommend a procedure that is more invasive or extreme than needed.

Make sure to get opinions on the doctor from people that he's worked on before and that you trust to give you an honest opinion. There are websites that have reviews of doctors. Contact the state licensing agency and the Better Business Bureau to see if there are any complaints about him. Some insurance companies will have historical data that they will share. You're going to also have to balance all of that against your feelings about him - how does he treat you (does he talk down to you), does he discuss many options or only offer one option (probably the most expensive one), do you feel comfortable or do you get the willies.

Looking back, we wish that someone had cautioned us, had told us to not make decisions based on hope that might not be justified. It's hard to make good decisions when you're hurting so much and you just want to feel better. When someone comes along and offers you something wonderful, with great authority and great sounding claims, it's hard to not get your hopes up and leap at it.

The problem for us was that we didn't know what we didn't know. We trusted that the doctor knew best, that he was more interested in helping us rather than lining his pocket. We ended up making decisions that, in hindsight, probably weren't the best. The very first thing that was done to her was spinal fusion - a very, very bad decision but again, we didn't know any better and this was before the Internet made it easy to get information. 2 years later, the hardware had to be removed because two of the screws were loose. Today we can laugh about her having a screw loose but at the time, it wasn't funny, it hurt! That surgery was supposed to fuse 5 joints but because the hardware wasn't prolerly secured, we found out later that only two were actually fused. That surgeon would end up having his license revoked.

We didn't do the research we should have to see if the doctor was competent or if fusion was the appropriate solution. Now, too late, we know that fusion should be the last resort, not the first one. We didn't know better and he promised that it would fix her pain.

Later she would have surgery to trim spurs off the vertebrae, chemically burn the nerves away and the useless laser treatment. None of them provided any significant or lasting relief. Largely that's due to the botched fusion.

All of this DOESN'T mean that there aren't good and caring doctors out there. There CERTAINLY are. You need to do the legwork to make sure that your doctor is one. This doesn't mean that there aren't good treatments available. There certainly are but you need to do the legwork to make sure it's the right one for you.

After all this and at her age, we've pretty much accepted that we're probably not going to get something that is going to "fix" everything. What she does now is get injections every 3 months. This doesn't take away all of the pain but does alleviate a lot of it so she can function without a lot of problems. We researched and found a pain specialist who has done this procedure a lot successfully, one that was well recommended, and who treats her well and respectfully, one who she is comfortable with and trusts. As long as the injections continue to provide good pain relief, we're going to continue with them and not try any more surgeries.

One last thing, you've talked about Ron's drinking. If he does have surgery, he HAS to be sober for at least a few days before surgery. Alcohol in his system could complicate things for the anesthesiologist and you never want to do that.

I don't know if any of this is helpful. I hope that you will find someone and some solution that will help him.

 

BTW. For pain I could eat Lortab all day. Only thing it did was get me to the point of not caring about the pain. Bourbon was the only thing that stopped the pain.

 

I have neck problems similar to the lower back problems Purple Kitty's husband has. I don't remember the last time I didn't have a headache. Like you, I have found that "alternative" means of self-medication works a lot better (read: make my headaches tolerable) than the prescription pills the doctors think will solve all my problems ... that they treat me like I'm an addict to.

I'm so disgusted with the medical profession as a whole.

 

Ron's a vodka man. It wasn't until reading here I realized it is actually a method of pain control. I just thought it was "alky" talk.

He is OK unless he stands up. So he walks around the house bent over the walker (which he needs since the stroke) and uses the wheelchair when we are out of the house. He is only in pain when he tries to stand which sounds pretty crazy when I type it out.

"Oh, he's fine, except for when he stands up".

I think only a crazy person could deal with this.

Spiff, what was your recovery time on this? I will be caregiving and running our business by myself until he's ready to go (think lifting 20-30 pounds). Any ideas on that?

 

"Oh, he's fine, except for when he stands up".

That was me.



Recovery was a week on all surgeries. I cheated on the all but the first. On the first surgery, they used staples. I had to sleep on my stomach. That was the worst week ever. Last one, they used tape like stuff, it was much better.

 

wait till you fight to get ssdi benefits and they tell you its just fibromyalgia ,and you can climb ladders and scaffolds ,happened to a friend of mine , went thru the whole gamut ,, the lower level doctors lied thru their teeth

 

Two words for you medical cannabis...

 

That may be my last resort.

I have had a couple of car accidents, a few years racing stock cars was no help. I have spinal stenosis in the thoracic spine (T6-T9), DDD and cervical and thoracic radiculopathy (fancy word for radiating pain). My case is very well documented with PT, chiropractic, many MRIs that show what's going on.

I have had about 18 rounds of ESI treatments (epidural spinal injections) from C5 down to T11. Facet blocks, intercostal blocks, you name it, I had it. I have had only 1 thing work so far, an RFA (radio frequency ablation) to my neck. I am about 70% out of neck pain.

My thoracic pain persists. I'm set for another facet block and then a round of RFA and this is all they have for me outside of surgery. Which is difficult, not many surgeons want to touch thoracic cases.

I still work and try to be active, swimming helps, being out in the sun helps. Winters are murder these past few years. I'm fairly well medicated, have 40mg of oxycodone (10/325 Tylenol) and 20mg of Oxycontin HCL (slow release) to get me through the day.

They do a urine test on me every couple of years to make sure I take my prescription and am not selling it and also checking to see if I'm using street drugs. Which I'm not. If I wind up out of pain management and surgery is a no-go, I'll look at cannaboid based treatments. They have a couple of new dispensaries in the area.

 

I wish. We live in Texas.

Thank you all for the advice. One thing we have heard consistently is that his back is a mess, this goes back to his teens. Back then they couldn't do anything for a "welfare" patient, or wouldn't.

After his accident a neurologist said he had "degenerative changes". A couple years ago a chiro said "severe degenerative changes, arthritis, and bone spurs". He refused to do an adjustment, and I'd never heard of that. This go-round the radiologist wrote the report, I got enough to know his back is [censored] up good. Primary doc suggested a consult with an orthopedic surgeon, that's who we will be seeing this week.

Spiff, thanks for the timeline on the recovery. I was worried he would be laid up for months. Our boss had "something" done to his back and is still out months later. We literally cannot afford that.

Ron is already disabled, due to being blind and then getting run over by a pickup truck. With my help, he does sodas at work (stocking them into the vending machines).

I guess my big worry is how to care for him and the business at the same time. I'm thinking about getting a little fridge, and a cart for by his bed, if he has the surgery. We already have a commode chair and stuff like that.

But we may meet the doctor, get the creeps, and say hell no. I have to pray on it.

 

Surgical tech here, just started in the neuro side and I would be more than happy to explain anything you had questions about. You can PM if you like

 

I had surgery 20 years ago. Listen to the doc -- do what he says, when he says. It worked for m -- I could not stand or walk without shooting pain when on steroids, valium and percocet!

And have a neurosurgeon do it -- not an ortho guy.

 

I have already had one neurosurgeon tell me that surgery wouldn't help me, they may have been paid off by my car insurance, although they are the best brain & spine practice in my area.

So I have 2 last options to explore before we talk surgery, I may wind up with a pain pump which I'm not crazy about.

 

I injured my back 5 years ago playing basketball. I made a bunch of trips to the chiropractor and pretty much sucked up the pain for three years before I went to the dr for my back pain. At that time (2yrs ago), I got an MRI and was told I had bulging discs in my L2/L3, L3/L4, ruptured disc @ L4/L5 and severe buldge (ready to rupture) L5/S1. The MRI also showed bone spurs on my L3 and L4, spinal canal narrowing, bi-lateral canal narrowing, and thickening of my facet joints and ligaments.

I was told my only option at this point is to talk to a surgeon. I started researching everything in my MRI report and the fixes for them and chose to hold out for as long as possible. I'm 35 and don't want to ruin my back anymore by having a botched surgery.

For pain, I bit** a lot, bit** some more, and try to take it easy-ish. I found that the very painful therapeutic massages help a little, but usually only last for a few days at best. My back does some weird stuff throughout the day, but I've found certain movements to force it back closer to where it should be. Like when going from a seated position to a standing position, most of the time I have to arch my back and at the same time clinch my butt to kinda force my pelvis to twist forward (at least that's what it feels like) and I can feel stuff move just enough to where I can stand/walk with what I consider my normal everyday pain. Sometimes when laying down and I get up I look like an S. When that happens I can't even explain what I do to get it straight. All I know is sometimes it doesn't stop in the middle and flops over to the other side so I'm like a backwards S. Way back before the MRI when I was going to the chiropractor, I showed him that little move and he looked a little stunned and said he has never seen anything like that before.

Long story short, back pain/problems suck! I hope you get yours figured out!!

 

Thank you all for your insights!

I am pretty freaked out. As you may know, he is already pretty messed up. He is partly paralyzed on one side due to an accident, is blind, has some hearing loss, has neuropathy, etc.

However, he can get around the house OK, take a bath unaided, toilet (!), dress himself, get to bed, get a snack or a drink of water. He can feed the cats and clean one of the litterboxes.

I am extremely worried it won't go well and he will lose function and become more dependent, bitter, angry, drinking more, etc.

But then I wonder, how long will Medicare pay for back surgery? Maybe better hurry up on that.

I haven't been this unclear in a while. I am asking God to guide us because I don't want to make the wrong call.

Of course it is his decision.

 

What tests are generally done to determine what is the cause of severe back pain.....???

 

6.8 SPC, Imaging first Maybe a plain X-ray. Then MRI, often with a contrast material. At some point a CT is usually ordered, all are good methods. But have different strong points. MRI is used to get a better look at tendon and ligaments. Nerve Conduction Studies and EMG or Electromyography are often used. Both are tests done in a neurologist office. They are used to tell muscle activation and speed of travel down and back on the tested nerve. These tests can help pinpoint the site where the nerve is "pinched" or if it is an issue of the nerve losing its myelin sheath.

 

purple please please please only allow a neurosurgeon to operate on his back not a back doctor. they will be much more careful.

 

One thing patients don't realize is that lumbar spinal surgery has some of the worst long-term outcomes of any surgery
And I deal with post surgical spinal pain patients every

single day and eighteen years of practice

I'm not saying that a patient won't feel better for a period Of time after the surgery but in five to 10 years they were usually back in the same boat and sometimes worse
Surgeons tend to be strangely quiet about this fact

I feel sorry for most chronic pain patients either they will live the rest of their life with surgery after surgery or they will become a pain pill addict or both

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

My troubles are in the C5 through C7. The last two MRI's the technicians actually volunteered that " it looks pretty bad" usually the techs defer to the Dr for the diagnosis, so it is pretty obvious when you see the scans.

I went to a Laser Spine Institute seminar and was hoping they would as promised review my MRI and lay out a plan of action. Instead the "doctor" took a quick look at the MRI and mumbled a few words . They called me relentlessly for two years wanting me to commit $9000 and come over to Tampa for a procedure. My research of them revealed a bunch of testimonials, but an equal amount of post op failures.

My recommendation, a good inversion table. And yes the medical marijuanna CBD works for my sister in California, and I tried it, no buzz, but instant relief. She takes it in tea.

 

I should add that three doctors recommended surgery for me. One had a huge hom made poster on his wall citing Florida statute and that he had no malpractice insurance.

 

I am very serious about the inversion table. It stretches you out against what gravity created. Get a good one, assemble and adjust it carefully and use with supervision the first few times.

 

After I hurt my back the third time (or fourth, I honestly lost count) the physical therapist used that and very nice treadmill. I believe they are called 'anti-gravity' treadmills now. Essentially a harness around my chest to lift me as I walked.

It really stretched my back out.

 

PurpleKitty, You will get a variety of replies from the internet--and you have to realize that none are specific to your husband's problems.

I am a retired MD,(Internal Med, Nephrology and Sports medicine boards) and when traveling, I had complete paralysis of my right leg, with pain level at 8/10. Got to nearest good hospital, found out who was chief radiologist, and got his recommendation. It turned out that it was someone who I had met, and who had trained with an Orthopedic surgeon who I worked with for a number of years.

I had a semi laminectomy, stenotic area reamed out, and some spurs removed. Result was satisfactory, and we were able to travel again after about 2 months, when I regained enough strength in my leg to walk a mile. This was in 1983. I continued to have back problems--and on several occasions had 10/10 pain, which basically prevented me from moving. In these situations, I ended up being taken by ambulance to the hospital. Usually nerve blocks were done. (I have had over 50 procedures, including epidural and peridural injections, as well as destruction of the pain nerves by chemical or RF methods.

Eventually I had to have another surgery, and this time a highly recommended neurosurgeon did the procedure thru a mini incision. It has been about 3 years and the worse pain has been about an 8, but infrequent, and only required one injection during this year. I have to take Medrol Dose pac about every 3 months for persistent pain levels of 7 to 8. My wife has had two neuro surgical interventions also at the L2 to L5 levels.

I would suggest getting the best neurosurgeon you can find--and get their advice. Don't just take the advice of one doctor. Also research the outcome of the physician who you choose. There are a few very good Orthopedic surgeons, Probably by % more good Neurosurgeons. A fusion to me is a last resort. I know of a number of patients who have a number of major back surgeries and eventually had failures. Occasionally one of these will have a successful procedure, after several failures.

Inversion, Chiropractors, Pain management, etc,--are only temporary measures, which may or may not work. I would at least consult and follow a course of therapy with a good pain management MD (Anesthesia trained) before resorting to surgery if at all possible.

Certainly long term pain medication, muscle relaxant, physical therapy, (such as exercises, stretching, hot or cold packs etc all play a role in the treatment of low back pain. No one can guarantee that the surgery will be successful. Being very religious with PT/post op, will give you a better chance.

We are all praying for you and your husband, with a difficult path ahead.

 

sounds like the medical interventions didn't work either and were temporary also...from your own post

one thing pts need to understand is that after a spinal joint surgery...regardless of how great the surgeon is......the joint will deteriorate after time leading to dysfunction ,even more arthritic conditions and scar tissue. The surgeries never address why the spinal dysfunction occurs in the first place......its just cleaning up the long term damage to take pressure off the nerve roots

My advice...research heavily......avoid surgery unless your quality of life is just miserable......understand that the surgery might gv you temporary relief for a couple months or years but the issues will eventually come back due to the inevitable deterioration of the area that had surgery and the areas above and below the surgery(which now hv MORE stress put upon them) based on basic spinal biomechanics

surgeons get paid to do surgery.....keep that in mind

 

I'm a Respiratory Therapist and I would strongly suggest you make sure you have a Durable Power of Attorney before going into surgery. Your hubby has a lot of other medical problems that could result in him being on a ventilator, post op, for days or maybe longer. It's not just about how well the back surgery goes, it's also how a patients body reacts to surgery. He's blind, he has stroked meaning there's a real potential for post op clotting, he's partially paralyzed which is going to reduce his movement post op and increase his risk of pneumonia. Add in age, and you might be looking at a long hospital stay even if the back surgery goes well.

I had an L4/L5 laminectomy way back in 1982 at age 21, and it was successful. With age, a natural fusion has formed there. I also have stenosis and degenerative changes throughout the spine but fortunately very little pain. And no plans to let anyone operate on me except as a last resort. I've seen far more bad outcomes than good.

 

PurpleKitty I know what you are going through and I feel my situation will help you to decide. Foremost always place your faith in God!
I was a 2 time State Champion Wrestler. I played Varsity football as a linbacker, I wrestled Greco-Roman at the national level and I was a National level Heavyweight bodybuilder. I was also a Police officer and SWAT team member. To say I was physically impressive is a huge understatement. I was hurt in an on duty car accident in 2013 and went to the ER. They told me I was fine and sent me back to work. 6 weeks later my neck and upper back spasmed so badly that I was curled up in bed screaming for an ambulance and couldnt walk. I was taken to the ER. After a day of tests and spinal taps they determined I had suffered ruptured discs in the car accident. How did they come to this conclusion? I had an MRI one year earlier through my chiropractor prior to starting to have adjustments to help with my lower back issues.
The City said they would not cover it as they believed my symptoms were caused by a cold. I sued and they decided to cover it. The Police Dept suddenly had every one of my superiors trying to get me in trouble for events related to my on going treatments. Two more law suits. Then I was told that I had to have a fusion as that's what the surgeon suggested and if I didn't follow their treatment course they would drop the case. So I did. I was then told that I would have to medically retire due to my injuries. I was subsequently turned down TWICE for my pension as the Pension Board didn't believe the diagnosis and found some one to a that it was all congenital stenosis... that just happened to appear after a car accident leading to a medical retirement. I was fired a short time later. I deal with chronic pain. Some days are better of course. Now having been unemployed for nearly 9 months the neurosurgeon has recommended a laminectomy. A short time after I was fired the city learned that since I was still not at 100% and they chose to not award my pension that they would have to not only refund my pension contributions, but pay my salary, and interest and penalties on the time that they had not paid me until I am at 100% or I am awarded permanent benefits. Instead of rougly 2100 a month I have gotten about 90k this year. I get paid my salary every two weeks. I am struggling through college again to be a PA (basically 2 years of Med School instead of 4) and I have paid off nearly everything. I tell you this story not as a "poor me" story, but to illustrate that there is always hope. Going through this had been very taxing on my wife and I, but it showed me that God has a plan. I don't know much about laminectomy procedures other than the fact that they are complex. God will guide you in the right direction if you are listening.
Last thing... I recommend Kratom STRONGLY. I was taking 15+ pain pills a day just to function. I knew I was killing myself. I now take Kratom daily and although it is still obvious that I have some issues.. I am back in DAMN good shape and I am accomplishing alot toward my future goals. I got a 4.0 this last semester

 

I had crushed discs and severe spinal stenosis. I had horrible spasms and lost the use of my hand. I went to fondren orthopedic in Houston. They took out the discs, put in plastic seperators titanium plate and screws. I had a orthopedic surgeon and a neurosurgeon. I felt better than I had in years. I'm having the same problem and other issues lower. I live in the middle of nowhere and go to a rural medical clinic. I'm waiting on a referral here. I wish I could go to Houston for surgery.

 

My husband has had some trouble lately, can't stand up. MRI came back with severe degenerative disc disease and spinal stenosis. L2-L5. At one junction he has nerve in contact with bone.

Apparently he will need surgery.
Please share your experiences. Did you have surgery? How did it go?

Obviously everyone's situation is different in many ways. That being said, this is how it went for me.

I had herniated discs in my lower back and neck near 30 years ago. The neck area resulted in crushed nerves going to my left arm and chest. Pain was almost unbearable and I lost a lot of muscle on 1/2 my upper body. Surgeon said I needed a laminectomy. I disagreed. I worked as a builder and electrician and not as doctor. Regardless my argument was this. If my original full-sized disc burst, how the heck was trimming it and then having less going to work out in the long run? Surgeon got ****ed at me, and scoffed when I told him I wanted fusion. So, I got the operation according to him. Pain relief was amazing. Night-and-day difference. Within 6 weeks I was given the OK to go back to work. Guess what? After a few days, same discs "herniated" even more and I was then worse then ever.

Then the same surgeon said I needed more laminectomy. So, in again. This time they went in from the back instead of the front and screwed up my vocal-chord nerves. I could not talk for a few weeks and the surgeon said he did not know if my speech would come back. It did. A few months later - back to work again. Two weeks later - worse then ever. THIS time the surgeon said I needed fusion and I was rushed in. Cut off some of my hip bone and wedged it into my neck. 1 year recovery and most of that time wearing a neck brace. THAT worked. 30 years later, still doing heavy manual work every day and 64 years old. Now my right fingers are getting numb but this time it's from a worn out shoulder-joint. NOT my neck.

 

todate, ive had 29 slice and dice back surgeries, 7 were putting me back together again the rest have been maintenance on My pain mask. Onve you start with spine surgeries, there is no going back. my complete lumbar, and about 1/2 thurassic is fused/caged. bout every 2 years, a couple more go and it starts all over again.


what ever you do, dont opt for the pain mask. (morphine pump and dorsal stemulator combo) at least dont if your VA add substandard care to bad equipment, and you get the hell im living. Been waiting 2 years , 3 in october for a replacement pump to replace the POS they put in while it had been recalled. anyway, if there is any way around it,
avoid it. try everything else first.

 

6.8, in Ron's case he had chronic back issues his whole life.

Then the accident. Getting hit by a pickup truck while walking is bound to cause some trouble.

The neurologist reviewed his films and talked to me after the accident, and said Ron looked OK except for "degenerative changes", a phrase we have heard a lot since then.

A couple years ago his back went out and a chiro looked at an X ray and said Ron had severe degenerative changes, arthritis, and bone spurs. The doctor was very grim.

This time, Ron had an MRI because I told primary Doc about the chiro and his diagnosis, they went right to MRI because he didn't see the point of repeating an x ray.

During the exam, the radiologist asked him a lot of questions about his symptoms but didn't say anything.

When I got my copy of the report from primary Doc, he had written "surgery" under "recommendations" and then referred us to this doctor, who called us.

Tomorrow we just meet the doc. I keep reminding myself no one is doing anything permanent.

I have a will for him but I should probably get a durable medical power of attorney, although I haven't needed one in the past. They just got a little weird about me signing forms for him (he can't), but when he flopped his dead right hand at them they apologized.

Thank you all for your advice. For whatever reason, Ron seems to have medical problems in August. This will be the third time now.

At least it isn't the dreaded rectal bleeding issue (lots!) we had last year. I was crapping myself thinking he had a tumor in there.