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Solar System Sizing - Capacity Factor

2018 Views 45 Replies 14 Participants Last post by  saln
Just wondering if anyone has any real time information on what their solar array produces. Total panels vs average production. If you know your "sun hours" please let me know that also.

Short story long:
I started a renovation and wiring a house for my kid. It's gutted and I am starting from the studs. All new electrical including new incoming/meter/disconnect and a new 200A load center/breaker panel.

The goal at the house being renovated is to put most outlets and lighting to a transfer panel and run off an inverter, solar, and batteries most of the time. Larger 120 Vac loads like microwave, toaster oven, and bathrooms would normally be on grid power (and GFCI), unless there's a grid outage. If grid is down, appliances could be could be moved to "inverter" outlets, and use them selectively (so not to overload the inverter) from battery back up.

If grid is down, HVAC (mini splits), dryer, electric range and electric hot water are also down. Those loads are too big to even consider right now.

Sun hours for solar panels in NW PA is poor. Energy storage via batteries will be a big part of the system. System will not be grid tied.

I am questioning the calculation done with an online calculator. They recommend 4.5KW (4500 watts) of solar panels based on a winter "sun hours" of 2.64 hours/day. In the last 27 days, the sun has come out 6 days. Two of the six days was only for a couple hours in the late afternoon. Essentially four days of sun in the last 27. I know solar panels generate some power even with cloud cover. (10-25%?). A friend has 12,000 watts of solar. On one of the sunny days, they generated 20.2 Kwh.

I think the 2.64 hours/day for my area is very optimistic. My AO is between Cleveland, Buffalo and Pittsburgh which are the #3,4, and 5 gloomiest places in the country.

What they recommend, I assume, is based on a "capacity factor" for my zip code. But I think they are a little low at 4500 watts of panels.

I may also need to rethink my battery back up (go to multiple commercial server rack batteries) and upgrade to 48vDC/120vAC inverter. Assuming no more than 3000 watt peak, and about 6000 watts/day.

Worst case-grid down, cold weather and on batteries:
Appliance​
Quantity​
Watts​
Hours On per Day​
Watt Hours per Day​
Coffee Machine110000.2200
Fridge - 20 cu. ft. (AC)135341412
Microwave110000.3300
Toaster Oven112000.2240
TV - LCD11503450
Freezer - Chest - 15 cu. ft.127041080
Laptop11004400
Router1724168
Modem1724168
Smart Phone- Recharge161060
Video Game Console11501150
Box Fan120061200
LED Bulb - 100 Watt Equivalent92351035
System Calculation Results​
Total watt hours per day6863
Killowatt Hours per Month:206 kWh
Peak Load: (4650 watts .....BUT selective/controlled use of electrical so not to exceed 3000 watts peak on a 3500 watt inverter when on battery power)4,650 watts
Sun Hours:2.64 hours/day
System Size:4.51 kW

I am not affiliated with this company but the information is from:

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Keep in mind, most grid connected panel arrangements don't actually feed the house. They feed the grid and the house consumes from the grid. It's subtle, but important difference because when the electricity grid goes down, you will not be able to power the house from the panels. There are systems that integrate a transfer switch to allow this, but it is something specific that you will need to design for to ensure that your house can consume solar power in the case that the grid goes down.
CMM,

My friend's system is tied to his panel. 2 Hots - 240Vac. I removed the covers to inspect what they did. Very cool (and expensive) system. It's been up and running since mid November. I don't think he's too impressed with it. I didn't want to rain on his parade and calculate the return on investment.

And yes, you are correct, he can't generate from solar panels if the grid is down. They need a frequency reference to synch to.

The system uses Enphase IQ8A microinverters on each 385 watt panel.

The transfer switch.(hybrid inverter) that is approved by our utility was $4000 according to him. And then he needed the battery bank, which was another $6-12K (depending on how much battery storage he wanted). This was the installed costs. He's going to show me the paperwork this weekend. I bet I get sticker shock!!

He can do the off grid/hybrid for less himself, but he has to jump through some hoops with the power company.
My home is all electric, 4000sf with 20 ton of ac/ heat pumps. Our panels on the roof total 17.75kw. During the winter months, our household electrical consumption is 2.50kwh per day, while the solar output is 59kwh - 65.0kwh per day. During sumer months, the panel system output is 112kwh per day.

Our system is tied to the grid. I’m located the very s/w corner of Arizona, where sunshine is in great supply.
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I am not affiliated with this company but the information is from:
No furnace blower?
I want to point out that there are ways to trick micro inverters into thinking the grid is still up and they will continue working to power your home on a grid tied system when the grid is down.

The Enphase IQ8 is one system that will keep a grid tied system running. Since it is such a nice feature I assume othe companies will be copying the idea soon. You may even be able to diy it by back feeding a sinewave from a inverter and small battery to keep micro inverters running when the grid is out.
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When I started this thread I was looking at "how much do I need?"

That was not only for the size of the solar panel array. I was also calculating the battery back needed up considering we live in a cloudy area and inverter sizing for basic lighting and 120V electrical outlets.

I know I will not put up enough solar to always keep the batteries fully charged. We go 3-5 days in a row where there's cloud cover and the array is only producing 15-20%. The return on investment sucks for solar in NW PA.

The most important element is to have power if the grid goes down. Typically we don't see grid down events often around here. So I figured I need 3 days of battery storage for the basic electrical usage/load. There will be no high load 120V or 240 if grid is down. I am going to go with the EG4 3K inverter tied in to a 30A 10 circuit transfer switch and three EG4 Lifepower 48V -100AH batteries in a nice rack. This should cover essential 120V power for 3 days.

Then I'm at a Power Generation conference in Orlando and see this, and my heart stops..532 KWH of power!!!!!

Disk array Server Gas Machine Electronic device
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When I started this thread I was looking at "how much do I need?"

That was not only for the size of the solar panel array. I was also calculating the battery back needed up considering we live in a cloudy area and inverter sizing for basic lighting and 120V electrical outlets.

I know I will not put up enough solar to always keep the batteries fully charged. We go 3-5 days in a row where there's cloud cover and the array is only producing 15-20%. The return on investment sucks for solar in NW PA.

The most important element is to have power if the grid goes down. Typically we don't see grid down events often around here. So I figured I need 3 days of battery storage for the basic electrical usage/load. There will be no high load 120V or 240 if grid is down. I am going to go with the EG4 3K inverter tied in to a 30A 10 circuit transfer switch and three EG4 Lifepower 48V -100AH batteries in a nice rack. This should cover essential 120V power for 3 days.

Then I'm at a Power Generation conference in Orlando and see this, and my heart stops..532 KWH of power!!!!!

View attachment 502920
I'll take 2... With a bank like that, just keep it in standby and charge it up off of util or genny when you need to top it.

This thread is probably the best information I have read regarding real world use of solar systems.

I have been kicking around assembling components, just to have on hand for later use. I keep a bunch of hot swap 3000va UPS's around, lots of batteries and a diesel genny with 100 gallons backup. I keep some smaller, folding panels in the 140 watt range and some FLA deep cycles, cc's and inverters, jic, for a smallish system.

Real solar, meaning a system of 5kw or better, with a healthy LiFePO4 bank, still eludes me. I am about 150 miles as the crow flies, SE of PARobert, not the best but better. The incoming clouds/storms usually breakup when they hit the mountains. I am pretty frugal with electricity, usually under $100 a month. A big whole house system for me, isn't worth the outlay so I am approaching this from a different angle. The only real needs I would have during a grid down would be running a small circulating pump/oil pump on a boiler during winter (worst time for generation) a small ac unit for sleeping (in the basement) during the summer, a energy star freezer, a refrigerator and maybe a tv here and there. All other needs can be handled by other means, lights, cooking, water, sump pump, etc. I would consider such a bare bones system as "insurance" against the inevitable, deployed when needed.

I'm going to run a new load calc, yet again, as this system never seems to stop evolving in my head. Anyone care to take a SWAG at what size a LiFePO4 bank needs to be for this on/off, part time load, considering 4 -5 days of autonomy?
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